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This is in response to something posted in the pro-choice guild. Since A) she didn't post it in the abortion debate guild I can't refute it anywhere else. B) It's about one of their arguements and so technically isn't against the rules and C) I'm still bitter about someone doing the same to me when she had the ability to refute it in here.

Anyway here goes;


Oh you've mangled quite a bit here, let's see if I can iron out your kinks.

Yes, Hitler killed millions of human beings, however in Germany at the time Jews were not considered people. Therefore it =/= murder. You saying "Oh well it was illegal in other countries!" is like me saying "Well abortion is illegal in other countries so it's murder here!"

Secondly STOP USING THE WORD MALICE IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT MEANS! Malice is a LEGAL term, see that? LEGAL. You keep using the dictionary definition! The definition of malice is "The intent to commit a wrongful act without just cause or reason, to cause harm to another." so guess what, yes Hitler fits and so does abortion.

And lastly of course there isn't a single country in the world where murder is legal. Otherwise it wouldn't be murder, remember?






Need I go on?

Simply because you don't want to think of something as a human being does not therefore mean that it isn't one. So please, get off your high horse. Although I do agree with one point; "Using the incorrect terminology just weakens the oponants arguments. It makes them look like they don't understand the true meanings of the words."



So then if the fetus was to be deemed a legal person and abortion made illegal we should track down every woman who ever had abortion and charge her with murder? What this says is that "nothing that's illegal now has ever been legal". THAT is complete bullshit.

The criteria for something to be murder is that it has to be ILLEGAL. In Germany Jews were not considered people so it was not ILLEGAL to kill them so therefore it was NOT murder. No one is saying that they weren't in fact people, however they were not legal persons and therefore had no legal right to live.

Yeah...she got really mad when I pointed that out awhile back.

I think the problem is she can't get past how the humans killed in the holocaust were people and fetuses are not.

Just like Hitler couldn't get past how the people killed in the holocaust weren't people.... They had scientific evidence and "proof" that Jews were not people but animals. What she can't see is that, though they obviously are sentient people, they were not to the people who were killing them. It was made legal to kill them. All of those camps were legal. When you kill a human, legally, it isn't murder by definition. The holocaust was an atrocity, that I can agree to. But...it was legal while it was going on. They were tried for it because they lost. If they had won the war, there would have been no issue. By the laws in place, it was LEGAL to stick candidates unsuitable for germanization into labor camps in an order to wipe out parasites, further scientific research, and of course keep those nasty Jews from being so darned wealthy during the depression. Yeah, that actually was a propaganda point, the fiscal sense of Jewish "invaders." They were classifed as non-persons and therefore not protected by law. It was legal to kill a Jew(and all the other groups) in a certain way...government-sanctioned labor camps.

The holocaust wasn't murder for the exact same reason that abortion is always declared to be "not murder!" We all know it was atrocious. Well, okay, there are people who don't think that at all. Most people feel it is, by now. To put a spin on it, it's perfectly legal if President Bush decides to take over the middle east completely, then level it after it is officially part of the US, just to make sure no one's left to protest, it'd be legal if congress agreed. It'll never happen. THat's just plain evil. You can't say, "Abortion isn't murder because it's legal," and then say, "The holocaust was murder even though it was legal!" Here is what we call a double edged sword. If you fail to use it properly, you are trying to have your cake and eat it too.

As she says, "There is not a single country in the world where murder is legal."

That does not mean,

"This means that no matter where the crime was committed, the Holocaust would have been illegal."

Murder can't be legal. It fails to be murder once it is legal. It drops down to homicide. Why? Because if something is legal, it isn't murder. It might be in your religion, beliefs, ethical reasoning, but it is not legally murder. The holocaust was legal. The people in charge of it were the head of state.

I got bent out of shape reading Jack Chick saying the Catholics were behind WWII. I know so many people I care about who survived through that time. I know people who lost families there and gah, and they're Catholic. As much as it'd be nice if the holocaust was technically murder, I know it isn't, just as much as abortion isn't. She obviously can't see outside of herself and can't take into consideration the feelings of other people and the realities that she doesn't want to face, and that's really her loss.

I'd just like to say that to some people, comparing the Jews who died in the camps to their family who were killed in the war, insults them because Jews are not people to them, still. It's prejudiced, but that's how they feel. The only reason society frowns on this attitude is because they lost the war. The only reason that it seems so prejudiced and wrong is because they lost. Because we are taught it is wrong. I believe it is, personally. But I am not going to forget that there are people who don't believe it's wrong and are offended when I say a jewish person is worth as much as their precious aryan son who was killed in combat. It won't stop me from saying it, because it is what I believe. It does not devalue that man who was killed in combat, no matter what she feels like. It puts them on an equal level. She doesn't feel they should be. I do. She may be right, but I'm pretty sure she isn't.

I don't even wanna know how many times I've said this: When comparing an organism, you compare it relevantly.

Compare a fetus-adult to a germinated seed-flower, compare fetal human-adult human to fetal cow-adult cow. Chopping up a full grown cow is dinner. Chopping up a full grown human is not (For most people). A human is not a cow. It is not a plant. It is not a Lexus(though who would abort those?). A human is a human. I hate stating the obvious, but I guess it's necessary I guess since a human is being compared to a plant or cow.

Anyway, abortion is what happened. Just like, a heart attack is what can happen to some woman. It can lead to her death. The heart attack killed her. Did she have the heart attack due to health problems, or did someone poison her to cause it? That is the difference that makes it murder, what caused this thing to take place in her body that ended up causing her death? Abortion is what happened, yes. What caused that to happen though? Induced abortion, which is what she's talking about, is different than abortion. It is quite certain that someone caused it to happen to bring about the death of another human.

I've always been very hesitant compare anyone and anything to Hitler and what he did. But the more things are pointed out to me, the more I realize that abortion is indeed very much like the Holocaust.

I saw a Hitler propaganda video in my "History of Film Art" class last fall. The director who made it, filmed the whole thing as Hitler made his way through the city in a parade. And it was quite chilling. Women and children are cheering for him and they all look so happy watching him in the parade. The people of Germany were only human. They thought this man was going to save them, that he would solve all their problems. I found myself feeling just so sorry for these people...all those hopes.

alright, so this was brought up again. The reason there is no intellgent response to this is that the point is:

In history, there have been human beings stripped of their personhood even if they didn't deserve to be.

That's an undeniable fact. That is the only point being made....legal =/= right. When people argue this point with reasonings as to why a fetus is different, it proves the point unless they can base it on anything other than what personhood's been taken away for before. It is a subjective view of who deserves to be a person, and that is the point, responding in such a way only adds on to the point...it's being done the same as it's been done before, only now it's a new group of victims. The point is not how a fetus is exactly like an adult. THe point is that it has been done in the past and the law is not infallible, but it is the law.

If it was legal then, it wasn't murder under those laws. It's like saying anyone who drank before the age of 21 in the past, even though the drinking age was lower then, should be punished now because they broke what is a law now. Well, it wasn't the law then. As horrible as the holocaust was, it was LEGAL. It doesn't make it right.

Some laws bite.

either way, Hitler was in the wrong for having innocent people killed just because of their culture, or whatever they choose to be.

not consuous thought, no, but around 6-8 weeks they begin to have brain waves. though it is not "hey, chillaxin in the uterus r0xx0rz", it is some type of thought. they also have a heartbeat by...what, four weeks? maybe 6? anyway, one of my prefered slogans would be "you will break it's heart...literally."

I'm not sure that there was any such thing as "international laws" then. I don't know that there are really any international laws now. sweatdrop You really can't force a country to do something it doesn't want to, unless you want to send your forces in and stop them.