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Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:12 pm
Browsing the forums, I have found that some of you believe that Christianity and Wicca are a lot alike and that Christians should be okay with people being Wicca. Hate the sin, love the sinner.
I copied this off of a website called Christian Apologetics Research Ministry.
What does the Bible say about Wicca?
The Bible is very clear about its condemnation of witchcraft and its various forms. Following is a partial list of passages from the Bible concerning witchcraft, seances, necromancy, and other such occultic practices. Divination and magic Lev. 19:26, ‘You shall not eat anything with the blood, nor practice divination or soothsaying. Isaiah 44:25, "Causing the omens of boasters to fail, making fools out of diviners, causing wise men to draw back, and turning their knowledge into foolishness." Acts 8:9,18-22, "Now there was a certain man named Simon, who formerly was practicing magic in the city, and astonishing the people of Samaria, claiming to be someone great . . . 18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” 20 But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! 21 “You have no part or portion in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. 22 “Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you." Acts 13:6, "And when they had gone through the whole island as far as Paphos, they found a certain magician, a Jewish false prophet whose name was Bar-Jesus." Mediums Lev. 19:31, "Do not turn to mediums or spiritists; do not seek them out to be defiled by them. I am the Lord your God." Lev. 20:6, ‘As for the person who turns to mediums and to spiritists, to play the harlot after them, I will also set My face against that person and will cut him off from among his people." Lev. 20:27, ‘Now a man or a woman who is a medium or a spiritist shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones, their bloodguiltiness is upon them.’” Isaiah 8:19, "And when they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living? 20To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn." Necromancy - contacting the dead 1 Sam. 28 where Saul uses a medium to contact the dead. Sorcery - attempting to influence people through occult means Exodus 22:18, “You shall not allow a sorceress to live." Isaiah 47:12-14, “Stand fast now in your spells and in your many sorceries with which you have labored from your youth; Perhaps you will be able to profit, perhaps you may cause trembling. 13 You are wearied with your many counsels; Let now the astrologers, those who prophesy by the stars, those who predict by the new moons, stand up and save you from what will come upon you. 14 “Behold, they have become like stubble, fire burns them; they cannot deliver themselves from the power of the flame; there will be no coal to warm by, nor a fire to sit before!" Rev. 19:21, "and they did not repent of their murders nor of their sorceries nor of their immorality nor of their thefts." Rev. 21:8, "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Rev. 22:15, "Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying." Witchcraft Deut. 18:10-14, “There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 “For whoever does these things is detestable to the Lord; and because of these detestable things the Lord your God will drive them out before you. 13 “You shall be blameless before the Lord your God. 14 “For those nations, which you shall dispossess, listen to those who practice witchcraft and to diviners, but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you to do so. 2 Kings 21:6, "And he made his son pass through the fire, practiced witchcraft and used divination, and dealt with mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the sight of the Lord provoking Him to anger." (see also 2 Chron. 33:6)
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Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:54 pm
I read that part of the bible that said do not practice Wicca and I was like oh great in every video game I play I'm a wizard or something.
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Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:56 am
From CARM, huh? That's an excellent site, I might add.
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Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:39 am
You guys do realize that the true meaning of those words was lost intranslation when converted to english from hebrew . . . I hope you guys know that words such as "divination", "magician", "medium", "spiritist", "Necromancy", "Sorcery", "Astrologer", "witchcraft",
have COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MEANINGS in the original version of the bible; as Hebrew words have different meanings than English confused But of course YOU wouldn't know that unless you knew how to speak hebrew, or at least ATTEMPTED learn the teachings of the actual bible. When it was translated into english alot was changed, cut, and left out. The bible is a book for teaching morals and faith, not for inflicting hate upon other religions. rolleyes Take a chill pill.
I also hope you know that "wicca" is not the only religion in the world that uses magic, divination, astrology, witchcraft in their spiritual teachings. So don't single out one religion when it is uses far more by various others. I'm starting to find that as a common re-occuring problem with christianity, you guys seem to think you've got all the facts figured out but you do none of the homework, when was the last time you ACTUALLY went and studied another religion just to be more well informed . . . having studied quite a few different religions myself . . . I can tell you that every religion has the same basic starting points, they all tie into eachother somehow, and yet are drastically different in others. I don't understand why christians (not all, just some) are so hypocrytical, especially when it comes to something that they don't even know about? neutral
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Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:24 am
Quote: Deut. 18:14 “For those nations, which you shall dispossess, listen to those who practice witchcraft and to diviners, but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you to do so. " So basically "Your" religion says you can't do it, but my religion is fine with it. So . . . why the big problem? My religion does make me conform to the rules and restrictions of your religion, we have our own . . . rolleyes duh.
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Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:05 pm
Ah, another Wiccan that underestimates me. I've outargued your fellow believers before and I shall do it once again! And if it is at all possible, don't be insulted by me. By my beliefs, I'm actually trying to help you.
First of all: Dead Sea Scrolls.> they're pretty freakin old. They show that aproximately 99% of the Bible is accurate. The 1% is the misspelling of names.
Accusing me of not knowing the teachings of the Bible, eh? I was saved in the summer of '05. Since then, I have read in the Bible almost every day and have been given the spiritual gift of wisdom. I seriously doubt that you could say the same, considering that you don't even know who God is.
Lol. Hypocritical? God has told us (Christians) not to have anything to do with any false gods. He has told us to "hate even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh" and at the same time, love those that worship these false gods.
And just because other religions have come up with the same crap doesn't mean anything. Lemme teach you something to remember: Christianity is not a religion, not by a long shot. Christianity is a relationship with Holy God. True, it is a religion to many people, those that do not know God. So many like this, people that have not been saved, make every one of us look like hypocritical fools. But what can you do when Christianity is socially acceptable?
Oh yea, I don't know which translation that was. This is the NIV:
Deuteronomy 18:14 The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord your God has not permitted you to do so.
Argue on! I would be hated and persecuted for you to know the truth! lol. seriously though
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Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:06 pm
1 Kings 18:16-40
So Obadiah went to meet Ahab and told him, and Ahab went to meet Elijah. When he saw Elijah, he said to him, "Is that you, you troubler of Israel?" I have not made trouble for Israel," Elijah replied. "But you and your father's family have. You have abandoned the Lord's commands and have followed the Baals. Now summon the people from all over Israel to meet me on Mount Carmel. And bring the four hundred prophets of Asherah, who eat at Jezebel's table." So Ahab sent word throughout all Israel and assembled the prophets on Mount Carmel. Elijah went before the people and said, "How long will you waver between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow him; but if Baal(a supposed god of weather) is God, follow him." But the people said nothing. Elijah said to them, "I am the only one of the Lord's prophets left, but Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets. Get two bulls for us. Let them choose one for themselves, and let them cut it into pieces and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. I will prepare the other bull and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the Lord. The god who answers by fire-he is God." Then all the people said, "What you say is good." Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, "Choose one of the bulls and prepare it first, since there are so many of you. Call on the name of your god, but do not light the fire." So they took the bull given them and prepared it. Then they called on the name of Baal from morning till noon. "O Baal, answer us!" they shouted. But there was no response; no one answered. And they danced around the altar they had made. At noon Elijah began to taunt them. "Shout louder!" he said. "Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or busy, or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened." So they shouted louder and slashed themselves with swords and spears, as was their custom, untill their blood flowed. Midday passed, and they continued their frantic propheseying untill the time for the evening sacrifice. But there was no response, no one answered, no one paid attention. Then Elijah said to all the people, "Come here to me." They came to him, and he repaired the altar of the Lord, which was in ruins. Elijah took twelve stones, one for each of the tribes descended from Jacob, to whom the word of the Lord had come, saying, "Your name shall be Israel." With the stones he built an altar in the name of the Lord, and he dug a trench around it large enough to hold two seahs of seed. He arranged the wood, cut the bull into pieces and laid it on the wood. Then he said to them, "Fill four large jars with water and pour it on the offering and on the wood." "Do it again," he said, and they did it again. "Do it a third time," he ordered, and they did it the third time. The water ran down around the altar and even filled the trench. At the time of sacrifice, the prophet Elijah stepped forward and prayed: "O Lord, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be known today that you are God, and that you are turning their hearts back again." Then the fire of the Lord fell and burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench. When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, "The Lord-he is God! The Lord-he is God!" Then Elijah commanded them, "Seize the prophets of Baal. Don't let anyone get away!" They seized them, and Elijah had them brought down to the Kishon Valley and slaughtered there.
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Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:38 pm
Please try to be kind to each other. This guild is open to everyone, even those that have different beliefs. You may debate in this guild, but please be respectful to others. Remember Jesus was kind to sinners, and so you must try to do the same. Also, keep in mind we are all sinners so don't ever look down apon someone just because their sin is different from yours.
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Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:30 pm
the whole idea of witchcraft terrifies me I used to fool around with things like Ouija boards/spells and I can say firsthand, it puts you into a very dark place Halloween of grade 10, before I had become a Christian, some friends of mine and I were playing around with some spells we found on the Internet (my gosh! hindsight really is 20-20 eek ) and anyways, nothing all that significant happened until we fell asleep. I ended up having an extremely vivid dream where we were doing what we had been earlier in the evening, and a ray of some sort of power shot out of my finger. It was a terrible feeling, like a completely lack of control. I woke up right away and haven't touched that stuff since. Now I realize it was probably God warning me away from those kinds of endeavors.
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Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:50 am
brad175 Ah, another Wiccan that underestimates me. Um, nice try, but I'm not wiccan. I dont' follow their belief structure, I follow family traditions brought to america from bohemia on my fathers side, and Native American traditions upheld here long before christianity on my mother side. But that was a very nice riveting try. 3nodding You assume too much. Do you need a hug?Quote: I've outargued your fellow believers before and I shall do it once again! And if it is at all possible, don't be insulted by me. By my beliefs, I'm actually trying to help you. Well, seeing as how I have deep rooted faith in my religion, I don't really see how you can insult me to begin with. And I'm a peaceful person, I can't be outraged. whee But I guess you can give it a shot if it makes you happy, lol.Quote: First of all: Dead Sea Scrolls.> they're pretty freakin old. They show that aproximately 99% of the Bible is accurate. The 1% is the misspelling of names. lol I'm not even going to touch everything encorporated with the Dead Sea Scrolls, you wanna argue with someone over that. You go PM TeaDidiKai, she knows more about that than probably anyone here on gaia. As for me ::shrugs:: not my thing, don't care. That has nothing to do with MY religion.Quote: Accusing me of not knowing the teachings of the Bible, eh? I was saved in the summer of '05. Since then, I have read in the Bible almost every day and have been given the spiritual gift of wisdom. I seriously doubt that you could say the same, considering that you don't even know who God is. Once again, I know who my God is. And as for reading the bible since O5 ::twirls finger in air:: whoopty doo, I grew up going to Catholic Mass, meaning I was baptised, completed confession, and all had my communion and all that jazz. I've been forced to read the bible since I could read. XP The bible was written by Man, plain and simple, and the fact that they have left OUT books of the bible, leaves me even more to critisize it. If it was the absolute and holy word of god, why would they lock up and not release portions of it? And I'm not downing the bible, I believe it has good roots for teaching morals, but I'm not going to take it as the complete and final word of the universe, that's just silly. That's why God gave us free will. To think for ourselves and follow our hearts.Quote: Lol. Hypocritical? God has told us (Christians) not to have anything to do with any false gods. He has told us to "hate even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh" and at the same time, love those that worship these false gods. That's great, for you. That may be how YOUR god defines YOUR religion. But in MY religion, they are NOT false, their only false to you because your religion says so and that's fine, that's what you follow. But to presume that YOUR religion has presidence over what I believe, well . . . that's just ignorant confused Quote: And just because other religions have come up with the same crap doesn't mean anything. Lemme teach you something to remember: Oh please do!! I've been waiting this whole time to come to some momentus conclusion . . . but you really so far, haven't made a valad point yet? You just keep reinforcing the negative christian stereotype. Which I'm sure others would not be very happy about.Quote: Christianity is not a religion, not by a long shot. Um, that may be your opinion, but it is sanctioned, technically, in the eyes of humanity it is. ((sorry, just thought it was funny to contradict yourself. . . moving on))Quote: Christianity is a relationship with Holy God. Every religion, is based on "a relationship" with "God" or the higher being they worship. A connection with the spiritual divine, that's the base roots of any religion. wow rolleyes True, it is a religion to many people, those that do not know God. So many like this, people that have not been saved, make every one of us look like hypocritical fools. You do a good enough job of that yourself. Quote: But what can you do when Christianity is socially acceptable? Um, think for yourself and find your own spiritual path, instead of giving in to modern day societal standards of "what's popular" rolleyes I can see your "think for yourself switch" has been turned off for quite some time now.Quote: Oh yea, I don't know which translation that was. This is the NIV: Deuteronomy 18:14 The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord your God has not permitted you to do so. Yeah and? "The nations you will dispossess" = "The Cultures that you will banish/put out/shun." "Listen to those who practice sorcery and divination." = Once again, the translations of "sorcery" and "divination" are different in Hebrew, than they are in English. "The lord your GOd has not permitted you to do so" = That's great, The LORD YOUR GOD has not permitted you to do so, that's assuming that YOUR religion FOLLOWS the BIBLE. ::smacks self on forehead:: you dont' get it do you? Not everyone follows christiantity? Only YOUR religion puts restrictions on what you can and cannot do, in my religion, it is perfeclty acceptable, the Bible is not our law, Nature and Peace are our laws.Quote: Argue on! I would be hated and persecuted for you to know the truth! lol. seriously though Why does ther have to be any hatred or persecution at all? Why do most christians see this as a big battle? Invoke love and peace, Banish hate. ::shakes head:: If you could step outside yourself, and listen to your words for a moment, But you are too stuck in thick-headed ways.
It's not about what's right and wrong, and I'm NOT saying your religion is wrong. It may be perfectly right . . . FOR YOU. That is all I am saying. Your religion, your spiritual path, is for you. Not for everyone. Everyone is different, everyone has different tastes, everyone has different likes and dislikes, just as everyone has different spiritual beliefs and different connections with god/the divine. I do not wish to bash religion over religion, I just wish you would see that just because my family follows a different (and more peaceful I might add) set of spiritual guidelines, does not make us evil. Why do you see fit to hate us, even though we preach love, equality, and peace. From what I've seen you even hate buddhists, and their the most peaceful religion on the planet. If a book can drive someone to hate another for no reason at all, than I would say that is more the work of Man and Satan, than it is of God. If your God is one that inforces Hatred on no real grounds, than I do not want to be part of it.
I live with the earth, I die by the earth. She is my god. Peace, Equality, and Justice. Hatred is an unneeded attribute. Just as cockiness/smugness is a man taught attribute. I do not think God would be very pleased. You may argue back if you wish, but it does no good to change my mind. I follow my heart and I do what is decent and right, being a kind caring human being is god law, just because you "got saved" you think that gives you the right to be a general d**k whenever you please? Try being kinder to they fellow man, and not so pig headed, your the kind of personality that starts wars for no good reason.
"Live Simply, So that Others May Simply Live!" ~Asha Sahri *Ms. Naomi Tinuveil
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Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:01 am
postage-paid The whole idea of witchcraft terrifies me I used to fool around with things like Ouija boards/spells and I can say firsthand, it puts you into a very dark place I doubt you used a real Ouija Board, the ones in a game store don't count. And real Ouija boards should be used with caution and by people who know what their doing. sweatdrop I'm sorry if you had a terrifying experience, but witchcraft is not something to play around with. Only what we call "Fluff Bunnies" practice craft traditions without studying how it works first. Sorry, you probably got caught in with a crowd that unfortunately gives pagans a bad name.Quote: Halloween of grade 10, before I had become a Christian, some friends of mine and I were playing around with some spells we found on the Internet (my gosh! hindsight really is 20-20 eek ) Why why why on earth would you do that stressed You dont "Play" around with magical energy and toss around spells. That's very dangerous.Quote: and anyways, nothing all that significant happened until we fell asleep. I ended up having an extremely vivid dream where we were doing what we had been earlier in the evening, and a ray of some sort of power shot out of my finger. It was a terrible feeling, like a completely lack of control. It was a forewarning not to "play" with it, magical energy is not something to dabble in. It can be uneasy, but it is not evil. You just have to know what your doing so that you can better control it. Just be careful 3nodding Quote: I woke up right away and haven't touched that stuff since. Now I realize it was probably God warning me away from those kinds of endeavors. Or maybe it's because you were playing around with things you knew nothing about? Perhaps witchraft is not apart of your spiritual path, but perhaps maybe it was just the paranoia in your own mind?
Which ever, also remember that christianity/catholicism have their own "forms" of witchcraft. What do you think prayer is? That's all basic witchcraft really is, most spells are a plee to the divine/god for help with a matter. -_-; I wish people would actually learn about these things before messing around with them and labeling them. A christian prayer is the equivalent of a pagan spell. -_-; They're not evil ((mind you there are some left handed path spells, the harmful ones you guys think all witches cast, but very few actually practice that; only "fluff bunnies" and n00bs of the pagan world tell you otherwise.))
Eitherway, it is up to your personal interpretation to see what your spiritual path incorporates. If you do not feel safe using magical energy, then maybe it is best and easier for you, to stick to Prayers to God for help in your everyday life. 3nodding As I've stated before, it's all the same, just different levels and different names.
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Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:16 am
Oh dear... I don't particularly care to deal with such things but here I am.
Naomi, I'm having trouble getting where you are coming from. If you don't identify with Christianity, I don't see your need to get involved in a debate since brad's statement was directed towards Christians. From what I can tell both of you are debating for debate's sake. I have no doubt that you are very knowledgable and probably more so than brad (no offense bro) but debates are kinda stupid, it just strokes the ego. I don't have things to debate about, only things to present to you.
If you have questions, PLEASE ask. I beg you to ask questions. I will answer any question to the best of the abilities God has given me.
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Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 3:47 pm
Naomi Tinuveil You guys do realize that the true meaning of those words was lost intranslation when converted to english from hebrew . . . I hope you guys know that words such as "divination", "magician", "medium", "spiritist", "Necromancy", "Sorcery", "Astrologer", "witchcraft",
have COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MEANINGS in the original version of the bible; as Hebrew words have different meanings than English Proof that this relates at all to the passages and proof of this Naomi Tinuveil I also hope you know that "wicca" is not the only religion in the world that uses magic, divination, astrology, witchcraft in their spiritual teachings. So don't single out one religion when it is uses far more by various others. Don't preach to others against what you're guilty of yourself, child. Furthermore, keep your mouth shut because your assumptions of his intentions(hehe, I'm his friend and borrowing this avatar for this post). Naomi Tinuvail I'm starting to find that as a common re-occuring problem with christianity, you guys seem to think you've got all the facts figured out but you do none of the homework Ad Hominem for the win!!! Members of every religion are guilty of well... BEING HUMAN. Like, OMIGOSHES!!! I guess if everyone were perfect, we wouldn't really have RELIGION. Naomi Tinuvail having studied quite a few different religions myself Heh, I can see all the potency of it stare Naomi Tinuveil I can tell you that every religion has the same basic starting points Prove it.
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