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Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:10 pm
No seriously, how do we define the concept of making a measurement? I thought about it and I couldn't. What is it exactly that we are doing when we 'record' a particular quantity about a particular system? How can we classify our aritificial intereaction with the world, and especially with the quantum world? We collapse the state into an eigen state, but that isn' tsufficient for me. What do you think?
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Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 7:41 pm
Measurement, as you said, is how we best try to isolate a charteristic of whatever we are measuring; how it is in relation to otherthings in a similar environment.
I guess in a quantum sense, measuring is the act of introducing a known level of entropy into a system to graph that system's changed form, to piece together a picture of it's initial form.
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Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 7:45 pm
Also, in a quantum sense, there is no such thing as "artificial"
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Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:07 pm
Vannak Also, in a quantum sense, there is no such thing as "artificial" except that there is an almost unadultered state, isn't there? When measurement is not taking place, all states exist superimposed and can be described by a wave function. This is what I mean by artificial, and I disagree, in quantum especially everything is about the artificial, about the 'observer imposed'. The whole, without an observer there is no reality. Although here I think it's just semantics. When I say artificial I don't mean 'made by humans' I mean imposed by an observer, and not of the environment. That is, with this definition, a measurement is artificial and changes the un-intruded superposition of states existing together.
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Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:11 pm
In the CI, I would say it is anything that collapses the superposition of wavefunctions.
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Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 1:10 pm
A Lost Iguana In the CI, I would say it is anything that collapses the superposition of wavefunctions. but a measurement doesn't have to occur to callapse the wave function. In his Feynman Lectures, Feynman says 'the mere possibility of a determining the outcome collapses the wave function'. For example, if we have two identical particles (two electrons) which we shoot at each other and collide then there are two different ways that they could fly off (per say). If we place a detector at each side, because we cannot distinguish one electron from the other, then we'll never be able to detect which outcome was chosen. Thus the wave function is not collapsed and the pattern we get is one with interferance. If however we collide a proton and an electron, then we can easily detect the outcome, thus there is no wave function. The mere possibility of detecting the outcome has already collapsed the wave function, even before we made the measurement. So that saying a measurement is anything that collapses the wave function is an insufficient definition.
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Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:32 pm
poweroutage No seriously, how do we define the concept of making a measurement? I thought about it and I couldn't. Operationally, the concept is defined well enough in the Copenhagen interpretation: as one tries to calculate the result of any experiment, one hasp/i] to draw a line separating the system from the experimenter/measurement devices. The question isn't meaningful otherwise. This is essentially only one level up from the Feynman interpretation: "shut up and calculate."
poweroutage We collapse the state into an eigen state, but that isn' tsufficient for me. What do you think? If you want a philosophically satisfying answer, I have none to offer you, simply because I'm not satisfied with any resolution myself. Some have tried to make use of decoherence to answer it, but it doesn't work. If I had to take a completely wild stab at it, I'd agree with Heisenberg's original proposal that the underlying space of quantum field theories should be treated as noncommutative (essentially what I said here). This view was supplanted by various tricks of renormalization, but it is making a bit of a comeback as of late. It can "solve" the measurement/collapse problem by empathically affirming that the problem doesn't exist--more specifically, it makes it possible for us to never actually measure anything in any specific state (thus, no collapse proper). It's not exactly satisfying either (and comes with a high intuitive cost of having spaces with no points), but hey...
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 8:37 am
um, this maybe the just the layman in me speaking (self educated) but I always thought that measurement was just a piece of data that is recorded about either an event or distance.
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 4:01 pm
ForgiveTheWeak um, this maybe the just the layman in me speaking (self educated) but I always thought that measurement was just a piece of data that is recorded about either an event or distance. Outside of the quantum realm, yes, a measurement is just a piece of data, or the act of measuring something to obtain data. In the quantum realm, however, the act of measuring affects the system being observed. Furthermore, depending on which interpretation you hold to, the thing you are trying to measure (a particle's location, speed, whatever) might not even be defined before you measure it, because the model we have for particles doesn't actually tell us what they do physically when we're not looking at them.
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Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 7:25 am
I'm sure someone will be able to correct me if what I'm trying to say goes awry.
In the last lecture of QM, the professor went over what constitutes as a "measurement" in the two-slit experiment. Measurements - in this context, anything that could change the outcome of the experiment prematurely - could be entirely unintentional, and be a product of impurities in the experimental apparatus (as opposed to the experimental design). In an extremely loose and vague sense, he offered the following quick interpretation:
Say you fire a particle with very well-defined momentum at a two-slit setup. For the sake of argument, assume that it has some wavefunction component |+> coming out of the top slit, and some component |-> from the bottom slit, so that their addition creates the entire wavefunction, and accounts for the interference pattern we always see. This is the ideal experiment.
But this ideal experiment neglects the presence of, well...the rest of the universe. So, to the top slit, we assign the state |+>|U+> to the top slit (U+ denoting the rest of the...universe acting on the top slit) and assign |->|U-> to the bottom slit. So (neglecting normalization for the moment), when we add these up and try to calculate |psi|^2, instead of the usual interference pattern, we get an extra term of Re{<-|+>} If no "measurement" has been made, the second term will be 0 and we get our interference pattern back. If a total measurement has been made - that is, if the state is now decoherent - the second inner product will be 1.
Now, I'm not saying that the second inner product is at all easy or possible to compute. But it *will* be between 0 and 1, and gives us a scale on which to formulate the idea of a "measurement." The professor also said that research has confirmed that it is possible to influence the system in such a way as to make a "partial measurement", where that inner product is neither 0 nor 1. I'm not sure where such things will be useful, but I thought that this more intuitive way of defining a measurement was particularly appealing.
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Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:12 pm
Taking an intangible exact amount on a continuum and making it tangible in relation to the rest of possible amounts on the continuum.
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:56 am
[Aeora] Taking an intangible exact amount on a continuum and making it tangible in relation to the rest of possible amounts on the continuum. well that is only a definition of length, what about other properties like spin, mass, charge. Surely spin and charge have nothing to do with the spacetime continuum.
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Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:10 am
poweroutage [Aeora] Taking an intangible exact amount on a continuum and making it tangible in relation to the rest of possible amounts on the continuum. well that is only a definition of length, what about other properties like spin, mass, charge. Surely spin and charge have nothing to do with the spacetime continuum. Not spacetime continuum, but the infinite amount of amounts between two extremes. Mass- Massless-----------------infinitely massive (don't nkow enough about spin or charge)
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Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:22 pm
[Aeora] poweroutage [Aeora] Taking an intangible exact amount on a continuum and making it tangible in relation to the rest of possible amounts on the continuum. well that is only a definition of length, what about other properties like spin, mass, charge. Surely spin and charge have nothing to do with the spacetime continuum. Not spacetime continuum, but the infinite amount of amounts between two extremes. Mass- Massless-----------------infinitely massive (don't nkow enough about spin or charge) What poweroutage means is that certain quantities, such as spin and charge, and mass in some cases, can only come in discreet amounts. For example, spin can only come in multiples of 1/2: 0, 1/2, -1/2, 1, -1, 3/2, etc. And unfortunately, there is more to a measurement than simply determining the value of some observable quantity.
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:46 pm
Layra-chan And unfortunately, there is more to a measurement than simply determining the value of some observable quantity. Why do you say that? Measurement is a way of dividing up a world that has no perfect units. Our units of measurement (meters, grams, seconds, etc.) are more than just stuff we attach onto the end of numbers. They represent something in our world that we can't describe solely with numbers. The only way we can compare things in our world with the use of numbers is by having a unit that represents something in our world that we can reference from. So, why isn't measurement just comparing and recording quantities using numbers? If not, please tell me what it is that I am not understanding. sweatdrop
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