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Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 3:09 pm
I have seen this posted a lot in the morality and religion section, and I was wondering what some of the people here believe in. Now science takes the approach that everything is predestined. Your brain is all chemicals and electricity. The electricity and chemicals react a certain way in your brain when one does something or has something done to them by another. The chemicals will line up a certain way and the electricity will act a certain way, and this can be viewed as predestination. Then again we can look at it that our soul is telling us what to do, the soul, in most beliefs, is not found on the physical plane. This will shed some new light on the issue. These are my definitions of freewill and predestined.
Freewill: one actually has a choice in their actions, e.g. if someone is annoying you, you can either tell them politely to stop, or you can be impolite; and you are the chooser.
Predestined: one has no choice in their actions, e.g. if someone is annoying you, your actions were already mapped out, i.e. you told the person politely to stop, and that is what you were meant to do.
One last question, does consequence mean predestined? For example we all will die at one point, that is a consequence of living.
I personally feel that there is a mix of predestination and freewill. I think there are certain big things in life that are already mapped out for us, that may be such things as occupations, or if you will be a helpfull person, even death. Wereas smaller decisions like how you react to someone who is annoying you is decided by freewill. On the question of consequence, I think that consequence has nothing to do with predestination, because the only real consequence we have is that of death, their is a one hundred percent chance that we will die, that means that death is predestined, at least in the sense that it will happen. All other actions have consequences with a slim chance of escape, e.g. breaking the law, it is very probable that you will get caught, may not be now, but if you keep your actions up it increases your chance. But there is still that slim chance that you will get off free.
So now I hope that all makes sense.
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Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 4:17 pm
I agree. I've always believed in a combonation. I think some things are planned out, sort of like destiny, and you're going to be there no matter what you do. But I think how you get there is entirely your idea. Example: You are fated to save the world from. . . I don't know, something or other. You can't escape that. You're going to do it. It's your choice to either sacrafice yourself or throw someone else in the way, depending on who you are, and everything.
On another note, I also don't believe in coincidence. sweatdrop *shrugs*
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Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 4:47 pm
chaoticpuppet I personally feel that there is a mix of predestination and freewill. That's what I personally believe too.
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Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:21 pm
Though I too believe a combination of freewill and predestination, I think my "formula" is a little different than yours. I don't think anything is planned in the strictest sense, however the path of our life, were we to follow all our immediate instincts, is. The brain is wired a certain way, yes, and if you do everything as your brain tells you (so to speak), the predestination is fulfilled. However, we all have within us the capacity to go against our "programming", to listen to society instead of ourselves etc., and there is our free will.
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Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 9:09 pm
Naeryn Though I too believe a combination of freewill and predestination, I think my "formula" is a little different than yours. I don't think anything is planned in the strictest sense, however the path of our life, were we to follow all our immediate instincts, is. The brain is wired a certain way, yes, and if you do everything as your brain tells you (so to speak), the predestination is fulfilled. However, we all have within us the capacity to go against our "programming", to listen to society instead of ourselves etc., and there is our free will. but cant going against society also be programmed into your brain? so that really you do not have freewill. Just because it feels like you have a choice does it make it so? example, elections in the u.s.s.r. were rigged, and a damn good portion of the population voted, but it didn't matter, the communist party would win. Now I don't know exactly what the ballots may have looked like, but the citizens or the u.s.s.r. probably felt like they had a choice.
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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:57 pm
chaoticpuppet Naeryn Though I too believe a combination of freewill and predestination, I think my "formula" is a little different than yours. I don't think anything is planned in the strictest sense, however the path of our life, were we to follow all our immediate instincts, is. The brain is wired a certain way, yes, and if you do everything as your brain tells you (so to speak), the predestination is fulfilled. However, we all have within us the capacity to go against our "programming", to listen to society instead of ourselves etc., and there is our free will. but cant going against society also be programmed into your brain? so that really you do not have freewill. Just because it feels like you have a choice does it make it so? example, elections in the u.s.s.r. were rigged, and a damn good portion of the population voted, but it didn't matter, the communist party would win. Now I don't know exactly what the ballots may have looked like, but the citizens or the u.s.s.r. probably felt like they had a choice. I think that's a good point. That's why I stand by the "small things" theory. You're brain, I think, wasn't programmed whether or not you should have a sandwhich or soup for lunch. Especially if you like them both the same, I still think freewill comes into it. *shrugs* Just me. Everyone's makeing good points! *smile*
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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:05 pm
chaoticpuppet but cant going against society also be programmed into your brain? so that really you do not have freewill. Just because it feels like you have a choice does it make it so? example, elections in the u.s.s.r. were rigged, and a damn good portion of the population voted, but it didn't matter, the communist party would win. Now I don't know exactly what the ballots may have looked like, but the citizens or the u.s.s.r. probably felt like they had a choice. You're just showing the other side of my point. If someone programmed to follow society has the choice to go against it, then logically, someone who is programmed to rebel also has the choice to NOT rebel. Because we have the ability to see where our actions lead; we can go against our instinct, which is, I believe, that selfsame programming.
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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:11 pm
Personally, I have to believe in free will.
Because the idea that the world was supposed to wind up like this scares me to death.
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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:52 pm
Naeryn chaoticpuppet but cant going against society also be programmed into your brain? so that really you do not have freewill. Just because it feels like you have a choice does it make it so? example, elections in the u.s.s.r. were rigged, and a damn good portion of the population voted, but it didn't matter, the communist party would win. Now I don't know exactly what the ballots may have looked like, but the citizens or the u.s.s.r. probably felt like they had a choice. You're just showing the other side of my point. If someone programmed to follow society has the choice to go against it, then logically, someone who is programmed to rebel also has the choice to NOT rebel. Because we have the ability to see where our actions lead; we can go against our instinct, which is, I believe, that selfsame programming. I am showing the opposite side, and what I'll say next is, does the feeling of choice actually give you freewill? I think that just because you feel like you have a choice does not prove freewill.
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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 7:32 pm
chaoticpuppet Naeryn Though I too believe a combination of freewill and predestination, I think my "formula" is a little different than yours. I don't think anything is planned in the strictest sense, however the path of our life, were we to follow all our immediate instincts, is. The brain is wired a certain way, yes, and if you do everything as your brain tells you (so to speak), the predestination is fulfilled. However, we all have within us the capacity to go against our "programming", to listen to society instead of ourselves etc., and there is our free will. but cant going against society also be programmed into your brain? so that really you do not have freewill. Just because it feels like you have a choice does it make it so? example, elections in the u.s.s.r. were rigged, and a damn good portion of the population voted, but it didn't matter, the communist party would win. Now I don't know exactly what the ballots may have looked like, but the citizens or the u.s.s.r. probably felt like they had a choice. But that was not predestined. The ballots were rigged as a result of the freewill of someone else. I, personally, belive we have freewill, but we cannot control what will happen to us, because that is the result of freewill of someone else. The way we act is programmed into us by influences in our young life. To be continued.
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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:21 pm
Hedge123 But that was not predestined. The ballots were rigged as a result of the freewill of someone else. I, personally, belive we have freewill, but we cannot control what will happen to us, because that is the result of freewill of someone else. The way we act is programmed into us by influences in our young life. To be continued. So someone else picked the winner of the election before the election took place, just like a higher power can choose our actions for us before we do them. I have already stated how the terms are defined, here they are again Quote: Freewill: one actually has a choice in their actions Predestined: one has no choice in their actions With these definitions the elections in the soviet union were predestined.
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Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 6:40 am
I believe its a combination of the two. I think everyone has an ultimate plan, but how and if you get there is up to the person. Like someone could be predestined to be a movie star. However if they make choices that directly affect that destiny, then the destiny will change. Does this even make any sense? sweatdrop
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Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:57 pm
Hedge123 chaoticpuppet Naeryn Though I too believe a combination of freewill and predestination, I think my "formula" is a little different than yours. I don't think anything is planned in the strictest sense, however the path of our life, were we to follow all our immediate instincts, is. The brain is wired a certain way, yes, and if you do everything as your brain tells you (so to speak), the predestination is fulfilled. However, we all have within us the capacity to go against our "programming", to listen to society instead of ourselves etc., and there is our free will. but cant going against society also be programmed into your brain? so that really you do not have freewill. Just because it feels like you have a choice does it make it so? example, elections in the u.s.s.r. were rigged, and a damn good portion of the population voted, but it didn't matter, the communist party would win. Now I don't know exactly what the ballots may have looked like, but the citizens or the u.s.s.r. probably felt like they had a choice. But that was not predestined. The ballots were rigged as a result of the freewill of someone else. I, personally, belive we have freewill, but we cannot control what will happen to us, because that is the result of freewill of someone else. The way we act is programmed into us by influences in our young life. To be continued. Whether or not you like it. Well, chaotic puppet, by that thinking, then yes, some things are predestined. But if someone means predestined as in "God/stars/Universe/whatever decided it would happen/fate", then no. More like predestined by others-but that predestiny can be changed, because plans mess up.
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Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 9:52 pm
I'm not saying plans cant be messed up, I'm giving reasons as to why predestination could exist.
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Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 3:50 pm
chaoticpuppet I'm not saying plans cant be messed up, I'm giving reasons as to why predestination could exist. Yes...... Argument is always good...Wait, no. Well, I think there is a third factor here, as in most cases. "Predestination", as I stated earlier, could either be seen as "fate" or as an effect of the chaos theory/others. But that gets confusing. So it's more like "freewill" consists of your choices and uncontrollable variables, which could also be attributed to fate. So basiacly, yes, it is a mix.
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