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High-functioning Businesswoman
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 Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 5:02 pm
So we finally started discussing the Fall of man and the creation stories in Genesis in my religion class, and my professor pointed out that if everything God created was good, how could man choose to sin? If there was no sin in the world yet, how could man choose to disobey God? Yes, there was free will, but there would have to be something inherently sinful or bad about man and nature that would cause man to choose anything but God when given the opportunity. So ... does that mean everything God created was not good, or were we set up?
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Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 11:14 pm
This makes me think of how we are the creation and God is the creator. So there is a difference between being the creator and being the creation. God does not view His creation as bad, but knows we are not equal with Him as well. The biggest deception with original sin was that creation thought it could become God. For some reason God did not want programmed robots, but He wanted His creation to want to choose Him even at the risk of rejection. Does it make sense that God had that one rule do not eat of the Tree of Knowlege of good and evil, and that He considered us good up until we decided to break that rule? confused
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High-functioning Businesswoman
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Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:19 pm
It makes sense, but the common belief is that until that point, there was no sin in the world. So does this turn that belief on its head? Did sin actually exist in the world before Adam and Eve ate the fruit?
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Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:28 pm
Sin existed, Adam and Eve just didn't know about it. It's the tree of knowledge. The snake told Eve she would know all that God knew if she ate it. A tempting prospect, no? wink
Sin is a little like bacteria. We can't see it, so at first people didn't know it existed. We still can't see it, but now that's it's been discovered we already know it's there.
It's also like those cartoons in which someone will walk off a cliff for several feet before they look down and fall. God said to Adam and Eve "Don't look down." and they did. And they fell.
Well, another idea in the 'do animals have souls' debate is that the animals never ate the fruit. They don't know sin. This could go either way. One could say that they have no knowledge of sin, and they cannot be saved through Jesus because they're not really on the same playing field as humans and Jesus did say that no one went to the Father except through him. But the other way you could look at it is that animals never fell, and so they must still have that special relationship with God where God can walk through the gardens with animals but no longer with humans.
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Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:48 pm
I think that temptation is not a sin, but giving in to temptation is sin. The snake tempted Eve and Adam, and they gave in to sin. Jesus was tempted by Satan in the desert and did not give in to sin.
Also, I probably should not say God considered His creation bad after we sinned because He still loved us, but not our sin. I think the potential for sin existed in the world before Adam and Eve ate the fruit, but not as a reality because it was a choice to be made.
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Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:03 am
Fushigi na Butterfly So we finally started discussing the Fall of man and the creation stories in Genesis in my religion class, and my professor pointed out that if everything God created was good, how could man choose to sin? If there was no sin in the world yet, how could man choose to disobey God? Yes, there was free will, but there would have to be something inherently sinful or bad about man and nature that would cause man to choose anything but God when given the opportunity. So ... does that mean everything God created was not good, or were we set up? Of course there was sin before the Fall of Man. The Satan existed, didn't he?
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Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:59 pm
Okay, something I need to say, which I'm sure most of y'all know anyway: Satan did not tempt Adam and Eve. The scripture mearly says "A snake". There is no mention of it being the devil.
Okay, sorry, pet peeve of mine. I know, I'm ridiculous.
Anyway, maybe it's kinda like when you're a kid. Your parents will tell you not to do something, but then that one punk kid talks you into doing it anyway, and once you mess up, it's easier every time, you know? Kinda like gateway drugs, you know. Once you start doing those drugs its easier to get into others?
I also really like Captain's theory.
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Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 5:50 pm
thelovelyLIZ Okay, something I need to say, which I'm sure most of y'all know anyway: Satan did not tempt Adam and Eve. The scripture mearly says "A snake". There is no mention of it being the devil. Okay, sorry, pet peeve of mine. I know, I'm ridiculous. It's implied.
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High-functioning Businesswoman
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Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:35 pm
Cometh The Inquisitor Fushigi na Butterfly So we finally started discussing the Fall of man and the creation stories in Genesis in my religion class, and my professor pointed out that if everything God created was good, how could man choose to sin? If there was no sin in the world yet, how could man choose to disobey God? Yes, there was free will, but there would have to be something inherently sinful or bad about man and nature that would cause man to choose anything but God when given the opportunity. So ... does that mean everything God created was not good, or were we set up? Of course there was sin before the Fall of Man. The Satan existed, didn't he?
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Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:57 pm
Cometh The Inquisitor thelovelyLIZ Okay, something I need to say, which I'm sure most of y'all know anyway: Satan did not tempt Adam and Eve. The scripture mearly says "A snake". There is no mention of it being the devil. Okay, sorry, pet peeve of mine. I know, I'm ridiculous. It's implied. Not really. The text just says "a snake" and then later I believe it says God punishes the snake by making him crawl around on his belly for all eternity. I'm pretty sure the church in the Middle Ages added that bit about the devil in, because basically everything we know about the devil comes from medival stories and such. I'm not saying he doesn't exist, the role just got played up loads to scare people back into faith. In any case, I'm digressing. I'm sure, in theory, it could be the devil disguised as a snake, but the text doesn't say that. And in any case, I tend to take the stories a little more metaphorcally anyway, so for all I car it could have been a hippo. XD I told you, I'm ridiculous.
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Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:46 am
thelovelyLIZ Not really. The text just says "a snake" and then later I believe it says God punishes the snake by making him crawl around on his belly for all eternity. I'm pretty sure the church in the Middle Ages added that bit about the devil in, because basically everything we know about the devil comes from medival stories and such. I'm not saying he doesn't exist, the role just got played up loads to scare people back into faith. No, it was that whole bit about the son af woman cruching the snake's head, while the snake strikes the son's heel. Messianic foreboding's, anyone? And besides, even if The Satan was not the snake, he still existed.
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Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:47 am
Fushigi na Butterfly Okay, yes, a misunderstanding. But isn't the implication in the creation story that because creation was "good" there wasn't any bad (aka "sin")? Or perhaps it's just a common misconception and there really is no argument or discussion on it. The creation story in genesis makes no mention spiritual or angelic beings being created. IF anything, saying that creation was 'good' would support the 'snake-being-the-devil' arguement, because, if God's creation (i.e. the snake) was good, then it wouldn't knowingly tempt Eve to sin.
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Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 11:25 am
Cometh The Inquisitor thelovelyLIZ Not really. The text just says "a snake" and then later I believe it says God punishes the snake by making him crawl around on his belly for all eternity. I'm pretty sure the church in the Middle Ages added that bit about the devil in, because basically everything we know about the devil comes from medival stories and such. I'm not saying he doesn't exist, the role just got played up loads to scare people back into faith. No, it was that whole bit about the son af woman cruching the snake's head, while the snake strikes the son's heel. Messianic foreboding's, anyone? And besides, even if The Satan was not the snake, he still existed. Okay, I'm sorry but I did not understand that first bit at all. Could you explain it again maybe? And yes, the devil definetly existed and I'm not denying that. I'm just saying a good portion of what we know about him actuallyt comes from middle ages folelore than it does from the Bible.
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Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:10 pm
The first part comes from various messianic prophecies, not from Genesis.
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High-functioning Businesswoman
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Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:25 pm
thelovelyLIZ Okay, I'm sorry but I did not understand that first bit at all. Could you explain it again maybe? Yeah, sure. Genesis 3:16 says "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel". This is commonly read as a sort of messianic prophecy, relating to the crucifiction wherein the 'son of woman' (Jesus, being Mary's son) crushes 'the snake's' head (defeating The Satan with the crucifiction), while 'the snake' 'strikes his heel' by the act of the crucifiction. Plus, the other reasoning behind saying that The Satan was the snake is that, if God's creation was 'very good' (ref. genesis 1: 31), then why would the snake tempt Eve away from God? It must have been something outside of The Creation, thus leading to the evil metaphysical beings, the chief one of those being The Satan.
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