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"If I remember correctly, it was you who posted a medical journal report and concluded that the fetus is a living human child. Now in regards to a woman's bodily domain, she engaged in a certain activity, knowing the risks, and with all her reason and will, made her choice. She became pregnant, but if, as you pointed out, the fetus inside her is alive, she is denying another human being's bodily domain. The fetus did not choose to be concieved, did not spontaniously "infect" her. She is responsible."


Your memory is somewhat correct. I did say that it was biologically human and alive (as opposed to dead and of another species.) but, I also said, that being human and alive are irrelevant, since this applies to all human cells. Also, the term "child" is incorrect. A child is a human between birth and adulthood, technically. Calling a fetus a child is incorrect unless this is a term of affection.

You and I have VERY different views about responsibility.

I, personally, beleive that true responsibility involves handling a situation with logic, thinking of the best interest of all invloved. Solving a problem or correcting a past mistake realistically. In some cases, it would be irresponsible for a woman to give birth to a child, but ultimately, the decision is up to her.

Many argue fetal bodily domain, but in this case, it is irrelevant. The person (assuming a fetus is such) who first violated another's bodily domain is the one who has lost theirs. (ie: A rapist cannot take legal action against a woman who injured him defending herself from him.)

I also do not understand why a woman should lose her bodily domain by having consentual sex. First of all, that is blatant discrimination on the basis of sex. Second, she consented to her partner's use of her body, and not any zygote/embryo/fetus that may result. Thirdly, she consented to sex, not getting pregnant. When you get into a car and drive, you do not consent to being in an accident. I don't see how this is cause to take away the option of removing the fetus.

And that sounds awfully like you want to punish the women for consent to sex and/or contraceptive failure, anyway. What would you say in the case of rape? That fetus is still the same as any other, remember. It's also still forced incubation when you deny the woman the right or ability to remove it.

"I am against abortion not only because of the unborn child, but because I have seen firsthand the suffering the women go through when they go into the clinic."

In what situation? Were you working, specifically, with women who were having trouble after and during their abortion? That would be a bit of a biased viewpoint. Where did you see these things?

And since you've seen them firsthand, why didn't you say so on the group forum? Before, you told me that you only assumed that abortion was traumatic for women.

"I have seen young girls in tears, practically being dragged in by boyfriends or family."

Well, that's not pro-choice. I am dreadfully sorry that you had to see these young women lose their reproductive rights at the hands of people who should have been supportive of their wishes. A good abortion/women's healthcare provider also provides counseling and refuses to do abortions on women who may be unwilling. (Planned Parenthood does this.)

"Accidents such as perforating the uterus or infection have left women sterile, so they can never have children when they do want them. I have seen hundreds of women's names, all killed by "safe and legal" abortion (And that is just what the clinics document for the state. Many abortion related deaths are not reported as such). "

Again, I'd like to know just where you saw these things.

If you saw them personally, why did you not report the clinic(s) where you saw this and have them sued for malpractice or shut down? No healthcare provider is allowed to just get away with things like that.

But keep in mind that this is the percentage of injury and death from abortion. The rates of injury, infertility, and death from pregnancy are much higher.

"The risks and effects are glossed over by abortion clinics because they do not care for women, they care for profit. I came into possesion of an internal memo from the local abortion clinic. It said that the anesthesiologist was quitting because she couldn't take it anymore. It said, and I swear to you that this is the truth, that they would have to do without anesthesia and "if the girls can't hold still they would have to send them home". They would not temporarily stop doing abortions, they would not stop bringing in the money, even if it meant that the women went through severe pain. What is pro-woman about this kind of exploitation?"

Surely you, a person who cares so much about fetuses and women and who say this with your very own eyes reported this to the authorities? I know I would, regardless of my postion. Anyone who would make so callous a comment should not be working in reprodcutive healthcare!

"Thank you for your letter. You have never written to me in a rude or irrational manner, and it has not gone unnoticed. We may disagree on many things, but you have my respect."

Thank you very much.

"*There are a lot of desperate people out there. My mom used to sell her blood plasma for $20 in gas money. Selling something else you believe is just tissue, especially for the kind of money the abortion industry is offering, isn't that much of a stretch of the imagination. I know you would not do this, for example, but do not think there aren't people who would.* "

Yes, but how many? I've never heard of someone selling blood plasma for money.

And anyway, being pregnant is much more physically difficult than giving blood plasma. Who would go through the side effects of pregnancy just for a little money? And the cost of an abortion can be anywhere from $300-$2000! Wouldn't you typically lose more money than you gained?! There are much easier ways to make a living!


"*The reactions of some of the posters when religion was mentioned were.....less than tolerant. I am not saying that pro choicers are heathens wink I am a Roman Catholic. I avoid citing religion in my posts because if my opponent does not share the same faith, the argument goes nowhere. In a secular world, I will use secular arguments because they are the most likely to win someone to my side.* "

A wise decision. Personal morals, beliefs, and religion will always vary, but logic holds the same weight for everyone.

"*Perhaps, after time has passed and scarred the wound to a degree. But from what I have seen with my own two eyes, on the day that these young women go through the clinic doors they are desperate, and think that this is the ony way out of their situation.*"

Where did you see this?

A few women do have trouble with abortion, but they tend to have problems with the concept of it before they even have one.

And no one should ever be forced into a decision that is about their own life. Reporting the places you saw doing this to the pro-choice movment and the media would be the best way to stop such a thing.

" "Additionally, this industry is drawing so much attention it is detracting from the exploration into alternate sources of research, stem cells, etc."

How?

*Well, take stem cell lines for example. The first thing you think of is embryonic stem cell research. What many people do not know is that the umbilical cord blood collected after birth is a richer and more readily available source of stem cells. Embryonic stem cells are still being researched, but cord blood stem cells are already being used to treat illness.*"

I was asking about tissue donation and selling, and how THOSE distracted from alternate forms of research, not embryonic stem cell research.

And don't scientists know better? Why are they looking for embryonic stem cells when there is a more readily available and less controvertial source?

Pro-lifers seem to have this terrible conception of responsibility... if you take a risk... any and all mitigating circumstances are inconsequential. It is not my fault the brake pads failed because the brake manufacturer had a bad batch, and yet they would hold me responsible for something I had no control over? Surely I could have chosen not to drive... but that does not necessitate I pay the ultimate price of my very being.

Sure you did.

Some hospitals are cheap as hell and horrible to their patients... and yet you do not advocate the cessation of cancer treatment.

I'd be interested in knowing if she was witness to this during an anti-choice protest outside a clinic. If I had gone to get my abortion and people were standing across the street screaming at me, I'd probably cry too.

I'd like to reitterate that she should advocate for better clinic treatment, not take away a woman's right. Also, swearing something doesn't make it truth. Many abortions are pretty painless. Take mine for example as well as my sisters, and my friends. All done with local numbing agents rather than being put under and not one us had any severe pain. Mild cramping? Yes. Did I go home and clean the bathroom afterward from top to bottom? Yes, of course. Did I miss work? Only because I am a lazy a**.

Oh my various heathen gods, this girl is whacked. What the ******** is up with those slideshows of mutilated "fetuses" and dead arabs set to a happy, upbeat, Gloria Estefan-laden soundtrack!? That's just a tad morose.