I feel that any flames directed at me are self-inflicted but I need to know some things. I want to know why, exactly are you Athiest.(Yes, I know there is another topic about this) Were you born into Athieistic custums? Have you left one faith to join Athieism? Have you saught other things first? And if you want I want your feelings on Christianity, and please aviod personal attacks.
I hope to get what I need accomplished.
And to help show I have no hard feelings or ill-Intentions with anybody here, I have taken on the task of creating the guild banner. It will not have any, any, religious symbols, or anything of the like.
Thanks.
--Timo
Note:Just a few more and I have enough for this portion of my paper. blaugh
Stories, answers, and such
- Bipolarity -
Hmm... a surprise, but a welcome one. I've no problem with people having religions, just as long as they don't do anything dumb with them.
I'm an atheist because the idea of a god doesn't make sense to me. It's not that I chose not to believe, it's that I no longer really can. It just doesn't seem true to me anymore.
I'm glad that you've done what so many believers couldn't do: speak to us without bitching and preaching biggrin
I'm an atheist because the idea of a god doesn't make sense to me. It's not that I chose not to believe, it's that I no longer really can. It just doesn't seem true to me anymore.
I'm glad that you've done what so many believers couldn't do: speak to us without bitching and preaching biggrin
hellpike
You ask me why I'm atheist. Many people have asked the exact same thing. I always give the same answer. It's because I personally think the "Holy Mother" is a howling bigot that supports fanatical followers. My first issue with Christianity: It's always, and I stress always, trying to convert the entire world to the "true faith". People have been trying to get me to come back to their teachings. I'll admit it. I was baptised Catholic. I grew up in a Catholic church. (Before you go off on a tangent about the differences between Christianity and Catholicism, I know there's a difference. Personally, I don't care one way or the other.) I was young and foolish, and I accepted the teachings without question. When I reached grade 7, however, I began to diverge from the church. I stopped believing in God and Jesus and all that other religious mumbo-jumbo (sorry if that's offensive). I found out that there isn't really a way to prove that there is or isn't a God. I also don't care. If someone falls from a cliff and survive, they call it a miracle. I call it dumb luck. I've heard of some people who jump off cliffs and such, saying that God will protect them. They're all dead now.
My second beef with the church: Take a good close look at the crusades. That's my entire point.
My second beef with the church: Take a good close look at the crusades. That's my entire point.
Foetus In Fetu
Personally, I don't have any problems with you being a Christian whatsoever and I don't see why anybody should. (Although I don't play a part in running the guild or designating its purpose and it's not my decision to make; others might feel that the guild should exclusively be for atheists whereas I might prefer it to be a guild for discussion of atheism and issues that affect atheists where the actual beliefs of the posters are largely irrelevant to whether they are members or not).
Why am I an atheist?
Technically I'm not really. I am an agnostic atheist, which means that I accept firstly that there's no way either to prove or disprove the existance of God and that secondly I lack a belief in God or in the nonexistance of God. I prefer to refer to myself as an agnostic but I am strictly an agnostic atheist.
I was brought up by parents who had both left the Catholic Church before I was born, so I was never baptised or brought up to be a Christian. They aren't atheists, however, they believe that God exists and also hold a number of what I would call superstitious beliefs and I suppose for a while that I did as well. I never held to Christian doctrine particularly or that of any other real faith, I just "did my thing". I was a radically different person when I held all of these beliefs, though, and as I grew into the person I am now, and especially as I grew up (not to say that the beliefs were necessarily childish) I lost any faith I had in the first place, making me an atheist, and started to look at the world a lot more matter-of-factly and a lot more 'rationally', which lead me eventually to agnosticism. I suppose if there's any real reason I hold the position I'm in the reason is that I am who I am and I believe what I believe -- I don't believe that beliefs are voluntary -- that I think in a particular way, which leads me to particular conclusions and that there's nothing I can do about that.
How do I feel about Christianity?
It's hard to say, really. While I support some of the tenets of Christianity, such as charity, I disagree with others and with the way that ideas are presented overall. I am a moral relativist, and Christianity assumes moral realism; I believe that people's morals are based on experience and knowledge and Christianity teaches that morals are absolute and come directly from God. Before I could believe that I would have to believe in many other aspects of Christianity first. It seems like the bigotry I see many Christians display comes directly from the idea that they know what is right and what is wrong and thus that they can enforce those beliefs on other people; Christians are not alone in holding that attitude but their religion actually appears to foster it, which I don't like. So, first of all, I can't resolve Christian ideology with my own ideology.
I don't know much about different sects of Christianity, so forgive me, but again, while I agree with some of their actions I disgree with others. I disgree with the Catholic Church's actions in places like Africa, where they deliberately lie about the effectiveness of contraception, particularly condoms, in order to promote their own Abstinence-Only ideology, which is not working in practise. Although premarital sex and contraception contradict their beliefs, I would approve much more of a compromise for the time being for the sake of saving lives. Many Christians would forcefully withhold birth control and contraception to autonomous members of the public who have made their own sexual and reproductive choices for the sake of forcing their beliefs on them. This is not an appropriate way to "spread the Word of God". So I can't resolve the actions of the Church and/or some Christians with my own ideas as to how they would better achieve their goals, and with what I believe is fair.
As for the actual 'meat' of the religion, regarding Jesus as the Son of God and the existance of God in general, we've already established that I lack a belief with regards to those ideas. So I can't resolve Christian doctrine with my own feelings.
Finally, with regards to Christians: many of the Christians I've met have been bigoted, self-important, illogical, irrational and frankly annoying. However, many of the people I've met in general have been all of those things, and I couldn't say whether Christians are proportionally moreso than members of other faiths or agnostics and/or atheists (although, it would make an interesting study), so I don't attribute those qualities to Christians in general, especially as I have met Christians who were none of those things. If I ever make a comment about "close-minded Christians", it is exactly them who I am targeting: the Christians who are close-minded. I don't hate Christians, although I disagree with a large part of Christianity; I don't even tolerate them. I feel that a person's beliefs are a seperate issue to who they are an not a reason to dislike or reject them, although they make play a part in shaping who they are.
Ugh, pretty long post, but I hope it answers your questions satisfactorily. ;D
Why am I an atheist?
Technically I'm not really. I am an agnostic atheist, which means that I accept firstly that there's no way either to prove or disprove the existance of God and that secondly I lack a belief in God or in the nonexistance of God. I prefer to refer to myself as an agnostic but I am strictly an agnostic atheist.
I was brought up by parents who had both left the Catholic Church before I was born, so I was never baptised or brought up to be a Christian. They aren't atheists, however, they believe that God exists and also hold a number of what I would call superstitious beliefs and I suppose for a while that I did as well. I never held to Christian doctrine particularly or that of any other real faith, I just "did my thing". I was a radically different person when I held all of these beliefs, though, and as I grew into the person I am now, and especially as I grew up (not to say that the beliefs were necessarily childish) I lost any faith I had in the first place, making me an atheist, and started to look at the world a lot more matter-of-factly and a lot more 'rationally', which lead me eventually to agnosticism. I suppose if there's any real reason I hold the position I'm in the reason is that I am who I am and I believe what I believe -- I don't believe that beliefs are voluntary -- that I think in a particular way, which leads me to particular conclusions and that there's nothing I can do about that.
How do I feel about Christianity?
It's hard to say, really. While I support some of the tenets of Christianity, such as charity, I disagree with others and with the way that ideas are presented overall. I am a moral relativist, and Christianity assumes moral realism; I believe that people's morals are based on experience and knowledge and Christianity teaches that morals are absolute and come directly from God. Before I could believe that I would have to believe in many other aspects of Christianity first. It seems like the bigotry I see many Christians display comes directly from the idea that they know what is right and what is wrong and thus that they can enforce those beliefs on other people; Christians are not alone in holding that attitude but their religion actually appears to foster it, which I don't like. So, first of all, I can't resolve Christian ideology with my own ideology.
I don't know much about different sects of Christianity, so forgive me, but again, while I agree with some of their actions I disgree with others. I disgree with the Catholic Church's actions in places like Africa, where they deliberately lie about the effectiveness of contraception, particularly condoms, in order to promote their own Abstinence-Only ideology, which is not working in practise. Although premarital sex and contraception contradict their beliefs, I would approve much more of a compromise for the time being for the sake of saving lives. Many Christians would forcefully withhold birth control and contraception to autonomous members of the public who have made their own sexual and reproductive choices for the sake of forcing their beliefs on them. This is not an appropriate way to "spread the Word of God". So I can't resolve the actions of the Church and/or some Christians with my own ideas as to how they would better achieve their goals, and with what I believe is fair.
As for the actual 'meat' of the religion, regarding Jesus as the Son of God and the existance of God in general, we've already established that I lack a belief with regards to those ideas. So I can't resolve Christian doctrine with my own feelings.
Finally, with regards to Christians: many of the Christians I've met have been bigoted, self-important, illogical, irrational and frankly annoying. However, many of the people I've met in general have been all of those things, and I couldn't say whether Christians are proportionally moreso than members of other faiths or agnostics and/or atheists (although, it would make an interesting study), so I don't attribute those qualities to Christians in general, especially as I have met Christians who were none of those things. If I ever make a comment about "close-minded Christians", it is exactly them who I am targeting: the Christians who are close-minded. I don't hate Christians, although I disagree with a large part of Christianity; I don't even tolerate them. I feel that a person's beliefs are a seperate issue to who they are an not a reason to dislike or reject them, although they make play a part in shaping who they are.
Ugh, pretty long post, but I hope it answers your questions satisfactorily. ;D
Dathu
The Choice of Atheism.
Why become an atheist? *Sigh.* Well, you asked for it, but I warn you, it is a long one story, so I am going to try to keep it short and simple. Now keep in mind that I am mostly referring to non-Asian religions since many Asian religions are in various ways atheist.
The proof that there is no god lies in the fact that there is no proof that there is a god. But that's not what you want to hear, and it is difficult to understand unless the logic for this way of thinking is explained, and for those of you who want examples and events, here we go?
The first step to understanding atheism is to understand the history of religion. The first forms of religion began in hunter-gather societies. At that time it was simply a creative appreciation of nature. The people, having minds and thoughts, placed similar minds and thoughts into the earth around them, anthropomorphizing them. They believed all things had spirits; rocks, trees, water, whatever. Originally just an abstract thought, it changed dramatically when they found themselves in need of certain things from the spirits. They would pray to the trees when they needed fruit, beg the river to overflow with fish when they were short on game to hunt, or they even asked the sky to rain when the lands became dry. Overtime, "official" people were selected to talk to these sprits. They were chosen because were wise, very old, or had luck in making decisions. These people became the first shamans. Now, so far it was still nature being worshiped, but what happened to change that was favoritism. People who lived in dry lands began to view the spirits of rain as being most important. Or people who had unfertile crop lands would pray more to the god of harvest (notice how abstract and specific to their needs the spirits are becoming). As their relationship with the spirits became more personal and close, the spirits began to take human form so as to appear easier to approach. Anyway, as certain gods became more and more favored, a hierarchy appeared in the spiritually realm, and the first seeds of monotheism were sown. Not only were some gods higher in rank, but some actually became gods of gods, though more often than not, were viewed as parents. Examples of this would be the Greek gods with Kronos as the lord of lords. Through time smaller gods simply became fazed out, and new religions began to offer only one god for worship. But aside from the role of the gods, the role that these beliefs had in society began to change as well. In its early days religion was a simple way to beg nature for favors, it eventually became a way to bring about unity. First it only united small groups such as families, but later it unified entire communities. Now a large group of people were bound by a common belief, and began to identify themselves through their religion. As their numbers grew, the power of the shaman grew as well, and the first officials were born. With this power came a way to control, and the ways of living were first to be controlled. Lifestyles and philosophies on morals were created to "please the gods." Over time these rules became more and more complicated and needed to be written down (the first bibles). As the number of followers grew more officials were needed (the first orders). And now we have an organized religion and a religion based society. Only now religion is a form of order and control where people of power wield the word of the gods like whips. You can see where it goes from there.
Why is this important?
Because it shows that man didn't just wake up and say ?You know what, I think there is one god out there that created everything.? Many people would like to argue that man always knew something was out there that created him, and that religion is the realization of that. Not true. There are countless artifacts and archeological finds to support this notion of religious evolution. Furthermore, it also shows that religion is man made and is still under construction, such as in the way that the simple belief in Christ has spawned Lutherans, Catholic, Baptists, and so on and so on. MAN MADE! There is evidence.
So if the idea of any religion being true is crushed, the next argument would be "But I feel it. Deep down in my soul I know there is something out there. I can feel it in my heart.? Touching, but explainable."
Atheists are not a modern invention. They have existed all throughout history, and in some cases were more fiercely persecuted than any theist. As I mentioned in the paragraphs above, religion reached a point of unifying groups. Well, in order for a group to be united you must have a consensus. People who did not follow the faith were often exiled. When it became a community, they were beaten and then exiled. When it became a form of control they were tortured and then murdered. This was to weed them out. Officials (murderers) saw to it that their lineage didn't live on, and so atheists were "bred out."
Are you trying to say that genetics affects a person's inclination to religion?
I'm not trying, I am!
People vomit at the smell of rotting flesh because those that didn't, ate it, and died, usually ending their lineage. Most people jump and become alarmed at loud noises because those that didn't, died, usually ending their lineage.
But that's a physical instinct, like a reflex. We're talking about a belief.
Aggression, depression, lunacy, and even a predisposition to drugs and alcohol have all been found in DNA. Behavior can be incredible influence by DNA that ducks from birth know to fly in a 'v', birds instinctively migrate south, and newborn marsupials (only fetuses when born) know to climb into their mother's pouch for milk. FETUSES! We're talking about knowledge, not reflexes. That feeling you have in your gut, is your blood talking. You, I, and anyone with a heritage that is riddled with religion, has a predisposition to following religious doctrine. You just have to use your head.
You can't disprove, I can't prove, and you still can't say you know what happens after we die, so you don't know. It's a fifty fifty chance.
No it?s not. The "if you can't disprove it, and I can't prove it means we each have an equal shot" argument is the weakest and most illogical argument ever conceived by thinking man. In no other field, no other profession, no other situation would that argument hold except for religion where people desperately hold on to their beliefs. Just try it out.
Doctor: Well the man doesn't appear to be moving and looks quite dead, but...when you die you'll see he's actually alive and well.
Me: What? Are you serious? He's dead doctor.
Doctor: Hey now. You don't know what happens after you die so there is an equally good chance that he is alive.
News reporter: Today the lost city of Atlantis was found, but archeologists say you won't see it until you die.
Bush: I will return all taxes, but you won't get them until you die.
Need I go on? No one can prove any of these examples as being false, but we all know they're ridiculous, and the odds of them being true are on in a gajillion.
Here's how I see it, "Innocent until proven guilty." We say innocent until proven guilty because we go by the situation before the accusation. The accuser has to produce evidence that a change has occurred. Before man made religion, there was no god. That is how it was. Now people claim there is one. Prove it. Or else we are innocent. No court would convict a man because he couldn't produce evidence to prove his innocence against a prosecutor who can't produce evidence that he's guilty. Therefore I don't believe in god. But because I am not completely closed minded, I am willing to accept that there MAY be one, but that the odds of it are 1 in pi (pi is endless for...those who...don't...get... sweatdrop ).
A bit long, wasn't it? redface
Why become an atheist? *Sigh.* Well, you asked for it, but I warn you, it is a long one story, so I am going to try to keep it short and simple. Now keep in mind that I am mostly referring to non-Asian religions since many Asian religions are in various ways atheist.
The proof that there is no god lies in the fact that there is no proof that there is a god. But that's not what you want to hear, and it is difficult to understand unless the logic for this way of thinking is explained, and for those of you who want examples and events, here we go?
The first step to understanding atheism is to understand the history of religion. The first forms of religion began in hunter-gather societies. At that time it was simply a creative appreciation of nature. The people, having minds and thoughts, placed similar minds and thoughts into the earth around them, anthropomorphizing them. They believed all things had spirits; rocks, trees, water, whatever. Originally just an abstract thought, it changed dramatically when they found themselves in need of certain things from the spirits. They would pray to the trees when they needed fruit, beg the river to overflow with fish when they were short on game to hunt, or they even asked the sky to rain when the lands became dry. Overtime, "official" people were selected to talk to these sprits. They were chosen because were wise, very old, or had luck in making decisions. These people became the first shamans. Now, so far it was still nature being worshiped, but what happened to change that was favoritism. People who lived in dry lands began to view the spirits of rain as being most important. Or people who had unfertile crop lands would pray more to the god of harvest (notice how abstract and specific to their needs the spirits are becoming). As their relationship with the spirits became more personal and close, the spirits began to take human form so as to appear easier to approach. Anyway, as certain gods became more and more favored, a hierarchy appeared in the spiritually realm, and the first seeds of monotheism were sown. Not only were some gods higher in rank, but some actually became gods of gods, though more often than not, were viewed as parents. Examples of this would be the Greek gods with Kronos as the lord of lords. Through time smaller gods simply became fazed out, and new religions began to offer only one god for worship. But aside from the role of the gods, the role that these beliefs had in society began to change as well. In its early days religion was a simple way to beg nature for favors, it eventually became a way to bring about unity. First it only united small groups such as families, but later it unified entire communities. Now a large group of people were bound by a common belief, and began to identify themselves through their religion. As their numbers grew, the power of the shaman grew as well, and the first officials were born. With this power came a way to control, and the ways of living were first to be controlled. Lifestyles and philosophies on morals were created to "please the gods." Over time these rules became more and more complicated and needed to be written down (the first bibles). As the number of followers grew more officials were needed (the first orders). And now we have an organized religion and a religion based society. Only now religion is a form of order and control where people of power wield the word of the gods like whips. You can see where it goes from there.
Why is this important?
Because it shows that man didn't just wake up and say ?You know what, I think there is one god out there that created everything.? Many people would like to argue that man always knew something was out there that created him, and that religion is the realization of that. Not true. There are countless artifacts and archeological finds to support this notion of religious evolution. Furthermore, it also shows that religion is man made and is still under construction, such as in the way that the simple belief in Christ has spawned Lutherans, Catholic, Baptists, and so on and so on. MAN MADE! There is evidence.
So if the idea of any religion being true is crushed, the next argument would be "But I feel it. Deep down in my soul I know there is something out there. I can feel it in my heart.? Touching, but explainable."
Atheists are not a modern invention. They have existed all throughout history, and in some cases were more fiercely persecuted than any theist. As I mentioned in the paragraphs above, religion reached a point of unifying groups. Well, in order for a group to be united you must have a consensus. People who did not follow the faith were often exiled. When it became a community, they were beaten and then exiled. When it became a form of control they were tortured and then murdered. This was to weed them out. Officials (murderers) saw to it that their lineage didn't live on, and so atheists were "bred out."
Are you trying to say that genetics affects a person's inclination to religion?
I'm not trying, I am!
People vomit at the smell of rotting flesh because those that didn't, ate it, and died, usually ending their lineage. Most people jump and become alarmed at loud noises because those that didn't, died, usually ending their lineage.
But that's a physical instinct, like a reflex. We're talking about a belief.
Aggression, depression, lunacy, and even a predisposition to drugs and alcohol have all been found in DNA. Behavior can be incredible influence by DNA that ducks from birth know to fly in a 'v', birds instinctively migrate south, and newborn marsupials (only fetuses when born) know to climb into their mother's pouch for milk. FETUSES! We're talking about knowledge, not reflexes. That feeling you have in your gut, is your blood talking. You, I, and anyone with a heritage that is riddled with religion, has a predisposition to following religious doctrine. You just have to use your head.
You can't disprove, I can't prove, and you still can't say you know what happens after we die, so you don't know. It's a fifty fifty chance.
No it?s not. The "if you can't disprove it, and I can't prove it means we each have an equal shot" argument is the weakest and most illogical argument ever conceived by thinking man. In no other field, no other profession, no other situation would that argument hold except for religion where people desperately hold on to their beliefs. Just try it out.
Doctor: Well the man doesn't appear to be moving and looks quite dead, but...when you die you'll see he's actually alive and well.
Me: What? Are you serious? He's dead doctor.
Doctor: Hey now. You don't know what happens after you die so there is an equally good chance that he is alive.
News reporter: Today the lost city of Atlantis was found, but archeologists say you won't see it until you die.
Bush: I will return all taxes, but you won't get them until you die.
Need I go on? No one can prove any of these examples as being false, but we all know they're ridiculous, and the odds of them being true are on in a gajillion.
Here's how I see it, "Innocent until proven guilty." We say innocent until proven guilty because we go by the situation before the accusation. The accuser has to produce evidence that a change has occurred. Before man made religion, there was no god. That is how it was. Now people claim there is one. Prove it. Or else we are innocent. No court would convict a man because he couldn't produce evidence to prove his innocence against a prosecutor who can't produce evidence that he's guilty. Therefore I don't believe in god. But because I am not completely closed minded, I am willing to accept that there MAY be one, but that the odds of it are 1 in pi (pi is endless for...those who...don't...get... sweatdrop ).
A bit long, wasn't it? redface
Valdae
((Alrighty, I took a crack at this..and it got pretty detailed. And I'm out of school. And alot of my friends are still in school. So I have excess time. Sorry for such a long read. I've been working on it off and on, so if it gets repetitive it's because I forgot what i had written..^.^ It could be condensed to- I don't see how its possible for a god to exist, and if one does, then it doesn't matter because I still lack a propensity for faith. ))
I was born into a Southern Baptist family. I was baptized at about 10. I went to sunday school, church services, vacation bible school, bible studies, christian summer camps, etc etc. I wanted to be a missionary. At about 7th or 8th grade, I started paying attention to all of the little doubts I had had. It's normal to have doubts and questions, so I told myself not to think too much of it, but I always had this nagging feeling that something was wrong. I remember reading this book by a missionary and it clarified for me all that I was lacking. I saw that I felt I believed and I thought I believed but I had no depth of faith. I tried, I really did, I still thought there was a God and I wanted a real relationship with him. As you can probably guess, the result of thinking about religion and God and my doubts was realizing that I didn't really know there was a God. I've always relied on facts and reality. I know there is an alternative explanation for this- that I should have faith, and then I could believe. I didn't understand why I, of all the people in the world who are supposedly my equals in God's eyes, should be incapable of faith. There was a scripture passage I remember hearing and discussing at church- something along the lines of the idea of God being evident in creation around us, so that even those who have not been witnessed to should believe. That really hurt me. Not only did that not make any sense to me and I couldn't see that for myself, but I immediately thought about all of the peoples who have looked around them and come up with ideas of multiple gods and idols to worship. Is it their fault for using their God-given mind and creativity to reach an 'incorrect' idea? Is the Native American lore a Christian would consider 'incorrect' really any less plausible? Likewise, I had opened myself up and tried to find a way past my doubts, but the result was opposite of what I set out to achieve. I didn't see why, if there was a deity of some kind, that any of us would not believe. If we were this god's creation, what would make him create us capable of failure? It had to have been known that man would sin. God would have had to have made man knowing man was imperfect. He had to know that some would be incapable of naturally trusting in him. You could think then, that perhaps that is why there are miracles, visions, and other such spiritual moments of clarity. But then there would be no atheists. Those are the kind of thoughts I went through.
Say we take my statements here and argue them away, on the basis that I do not know the nature of God. Granted, most of that was based on the Christian concept. (I don't believe the Bible or any other document is the word of god, it reeks of man's ignorance, but I'll save that for later.) It doesn't feel natural or make any logic sense that there should be a god. Is that statement faith of a different kind? Not exactly. It's why I lack a trust in God. So to further tackle a broader concept of god, how did we get here? My answer- it doesn't matter. I can't believe in a God, not truly. I've tried and there's just a capability I lack in that regard. So if there was a being who created us- I still wouldn't care unless it re-equipped me with the capability to. I don't think there is any other way I could believe unless there was some amazing undeniable documented miracle with physical evidence that I and other sane people witnessed- perhaps god could appear, bring Trent Reznor with him and make me and Trent immortal and then God could promise me it wouldn't be another 5 years before the next NIN album and that Trent will use the phrase "flip flop" more and...I digress ^_^ (I had to do something funny to reward you for reading.)
In short- there is nothing I can feel (in a spiritual sense) and no proof I have been shown that can make me think there is a God.
I will move on to Christianity and Christians now. I have known a lot of Christians. I live in a very Protestant-saturated area. I have seen several anti-abortion and anti-gay protests outside my high school. But all in all, most have been very decent and polite people, even when talking with non-believers. Most of my best friends are Christian. The only real difference between us is that I don't believe in God and they do. We have very similar social views. The only Christians who have annoyed or upset me are those who have implied several things- you have to believe in god to be moral, you're basically less of a person and less of a citizen (and therefore not subject to the same rights) if you aren't a believer, it is a Christian's right to preach to you because after all you are a poor pathetic non-believer, and no one else's beliefs are valid and thus should not be treated with any respect. Those attitudes do upset me. I will say once again, that I have known very few who are like that. There seems to be an increasing thought that it is perfectly fine to make political decisions based on religion and not on Constitutionality. That scares me. Example to explain what I mean: It is fine to feel personally that homosexuals should not marry, but it is not okay to take away their rights because of that. I think a lot of people, not just Christians, easily forget that in order for you to have legal rights, you have to honor other people's rights by the same standards (ie Constitutionality). In the case of Christians, those that are more extreme in their ideas easily over-shadow the average middle-of-the-road Christians in a nation with such a large percentage of Christians and such an active media. If Atheists were the majority in the US and not Christians? The situations would simply be reversed. Christians would be fearing Atheists taking their rights away and making decisions solely based on their beliefs (or lack thereof). Human nature crosses religious bounds. We can't honestly say we have room to speak. There are people who are going to think more 'radically' and take violent measures, and they will do this no matter what belief or cause they profess. A mild mannered shy individual will not kill in the name of God simply upon converting to Christianity. I don't pin the blame of people's actions on the religion (unless it happens to be a religion that specifically requires followers to go kill babies on Tuesdays..but anyways...you see what I mean). That said, I also look at the Bible and other documents as creations of man. Even if they believed they are writing the word of god, the Bible has been affected by man. The bible seems to, in places, reflect the knowledge of man at that time. (Noah's ark, real? All of humanity from two people in one location? I think you could argue homosexuality and perhaps abortion as well..) I am not a Biblical scholar and I do not claim to be one, so I can't go into much detail with its history. Maybe the Bible is flawed, maybe it isn't, that doesn't really prove or disprove that there's a god.
I see no religion as having more 'credibility' than another religion. A lot of what determines a person's religion is where they were born. It is obvious that different religions are more popular in different areas of the world. And it isn't because everyone moves to be with those of the same faith. I started out as a Southern Baptist because I was born into a Southern Baptist family. If I had been capable of faith and found that I really did trust in God, then a Southern Baptist I would still be.
I don't really know what else to say. I don't feel like reading all of that again.
I would never want to make someone lose their faith. It doesn't matter to me at all as long as you can look at another's beliefs as equally valid in the sense that they deserve the same rights and same respect as a person as you do.
Another thing I might as well add, the way you (Timo89) speak of Atheism in the first post is like it is a religion. It's not. It's not something you join and it's not something you convert to. It's a word that we've chosen to make an attempt at describing a lack of belief in a god. You don't leave a faith to join 'Atheism.' Atheism is similar in word context to theism. You don't join theism, but you may have theistic beliefs. I know that's rather picky of me, and I don't honestly care, but I just thought it was something sorta interesting to point out.
**EDIT- Now that I've read Dathu's.. I didn't really think of answering the question that way.. As far as going back to discuss the roots of religion. I sorta hinted at that, but anyways, I like the way he went about explaining it. I think it's telling that some concept of a god was thought of just about everywhere, yet those ideas are different and still strongly believed in as the one right idea...
I forgot about the 'neither of us can prove it' argument. That one hurts your brain. If I can't prove I can walk on water and I lack the faith to try, I'm not going to do it. To get me to do it- give me the faith or give me proof I can.
((*whew*))
I was born into a Southern Baptist family. I was baptized at about 10. I went to sunday school, church services, vacation bible school, bible studies, christian summer camps, etc etc. I wanted to be a missionary. At about 7th or 8th grade, I started paying attention to all of the little doubts I had had. It's normal to have doubts and questions, so I told myself not to think too much of it, but I always had this nagging feeling that something was wrong. I remember reading this book by a missionary and it clarified for me all that I was lacking. I saw that I felt I believed and I thought I believed but I had no depth of faith. I tried, I really did, I still thought there was a God and I wanted a real relationship with him. As you can probably guess, the result of thinking about religion and God and my doubts was realizing that I didn't really know there was a God. I've always relied on facts and reality. I know there is an alternative explanation for this- that I should have faith, and then I could believe. I didn't understand why I, of all the people in the world who are supposedly my equals in God's eyes, should be incapable of faith. There was a scripture passage I remember hearing and discussing at church- something along the lines of the idea of God being evident in creation around us, so that even those who have not been witnessed to should believe. That really hurt me. Not only did that not make any sense to me and I couldn't see that for myself, but I immediately thought about all of the peoples who have looked around them and come up with ideas of multiple gods and idols to worship. Is it their fault for using their God-given mind and creativity to reach an 'incorrect' idea? Is the Native American lore a Christian would consider 'incorrect' really any less plausible? Likewise, I had opened myself up and tried to find a way past my doubts, but the result was opposite of what I set out to achieve. I didn't see why, if there was a deity of some kind, that any of us would not believe. If we were this god's creation, what would make him create us capable of failure? It had to have been known that man would sin. God would have had to have made man knowing man was imperfect. He had to know that some would be incapable of naturally trusting in him. You could think then, that perhaps that is why there are miracles, visions, and other such spiritual moments of clarity. But then there would be no atheists. Those are the kind of thoughts I went through.
Say we take my statements here and argue them away, on the basis that I do not know the nature of God. Granted, most of that was based on the Christian concept. (I don't believe the Bible or any other document is the word of god, it reeks of man's ignorance, but I'll save that for later.) It doesn't feel natural or make any logic sense that there should be a god. Is that statement faith of a different kind? Not exactly. It's why I lack a trust in God. So to further tackle a broader concept of god, how did we get here? My answer- it doesn't matter. I can't believe in a God, not truly. I've tried and there's just a capability I lack in that regard. So if there was a being who created us- I still wouldn't care unless it re-equipped me with the capability to. I don't think there is any other way I could believe unless there was some amazing undeniable documented miracle with physical evidence that I and other sane people witnessed- perhaps god could appear, bring Trent Reznor with him and make me and Trent immortal and then God could promise me it wouldn't be another 5 years before the next NIN album and that Trent will use the phrase "flip flop" more and...I digress ^_^ (I had to do something funny to reward you for reading.)
In short- there is nothing I can feel (in a spiritual sense) and no proof I have been shown that can make me think there is a God.
I will move on to Christianity and Christians now. I have known a lot of Christians. I live in a very Protestant-saturated area. I have seen several anti-abortion and anti-gay protests outside my high school. But all in all, most have been very decent and polite people, even when talking with non-believers. Most of my best friends are Christian. The only real difference between us is that I don't believe in God and they do. We have very similar social views. The only Christians who have annoyed or upset me are those who have implied several things- you have to believe in god to be moral, you're basically less of a person and less of a citizen (and therefore not subject to the same rights) if you aren't a believer, it is a Christian's right to preach to you because after all you are a poor pathetic non-believer, and no one else's beliefs are valid and thus should not be treated with any respect. Those attitudes do upset me. I will say once again, that I have known very few who are like that. There seems to be an increasing thought that it is perfectly fine to make political decisions based on religion and not on Constitutionality. That scares me. Example to explain what I mean: It is fine to feel personally that homosexuals should not marry, but it is not okay to take away their rights because of that. I think a lot of people, not just Christians, easily forget that in order for you to have legal rights, you have to honor other people's rights by the same standards (ie Constitutionality). In the case of Christians, those that are more extreme in their ideas easily over-shadow the average middle-of-the-road Christians in a nation with such a large percentage of Christians and such an active media. If Atheists were the majority in the US and not Christians? The situations would simply be reversed. Christians would be fearing Atheists taking their rights away and making decisions solely based on their beliefs (or lack thereof). Human nature crosses religious bounds. We can't honestly say we have room to speak. There are people who are going to think more 'radically' and take violent measures, and they will do this no matter what belief or cause they profess. A mild mannered shy individual will not kill in the name of God simply upon converting to Christianity. I don't pin the blame of people's actions on the religion (unless it happens to be a religion that specifically requires followers to go kill babies on Tuesdays..but anyways...you see what I mean). That said, I also look at the Bible and other documents as creations of man. Even if they believed they are writing the word of god, the Bible has been affected by man. The bible seems to, in places, reflect the knowledge of man at that time. (Noah's ark, real? All of humanity from two people in one location? I think you could argue homosexuality and perhaps abortion as well..) I am not a Biblical scholar and I do not claim to be one, so I can't go into much detail with its history. Maybe the Bible is flawed, maybe it isn't, that doesn't really prove or disprove that there's a god.
I see no religion as having more 'credibility' than another religion. A lot of what determines a person's religion is where they were born. It is obvious that different religions are more popular in different areas of the world. And it isn't because everyone moves to be with those of the same faith. I started out as a Southern Baptist because I was born into a Southern Baptist family. If I had been capable of faith and found that I really did trust in God, then a Southern Baptist I would still be.
I don't really know what else to say. I don't feel like reading all of that again.
I would never want to make someone lose their faith. It doesn't matter to me at all as long as you can look at another's beliefs as equally valid in the sense that they deserve the same rights and same respect as a person as you do.
Another thing I might as well add, the way you (Timo89) speak of Atheism in the first post is like it is a religion. It's not. It's not something you join and it's not something you convert to. It's a word that we've chosen to make an attempt at describing a lack of belief in a god. You don't leave a faith to join 'Atheism.' Atheism is similar in word context to theism. You don't join theism, but you may have theistic beliefs. I know that's rather picky of me, and I don't honestly care, but I just thought it was something sorta interesting to point out.
**EDIT- Now that I've read Dathu's.. I didn't really think of answering the question that way.. As far as going back to discuss the roots of religion. I sorta hinted at that, but anyways, I like the way he went about explaining it. I think it's telling that some concept of a god was thought of just about everywhere, yet those ideas are different and still strongly believed in as the one right idea...
I forgot about the 'neither of us can prove it' argument. That one hurts your brain. If I can't prove I can walk on water and I lack the faith to try, I'm not going to do it. To get me to do it- give me the faith or give me proof I can.
((*whew*))
Kyrkran
Honestly, the idea of a god has never quite made sense to me, but in the past few years I've simply come to realize that I never did believe in one. I think that when we are young, we try to believe, as it helps explain things that we do not know. However, I have simply become someone with my own beliefs, independant of organized religion. However, I can understand that your beliefs can be very different from mine. I respect that, respect your right to choose who you are for yourself. I feel that diversity makes us great. In fact, it might be refreshing to see a Christian or other deity believing religion perspective on matters, assuming that it can be explained with minimal use of religous figures.
Mechanism
Hmmm. Good responses. I'll try too.
I was brought up without a religion, and religion was never an issue I really thought about, until, when I began using Gaia, I read threads in M&R. Anyway, over some time, I had decided these things:
People generally like to believe what is true, or at least what is beneficial to them. Critically and logically assessing propositions is the best way to ensure this, because the only alternatives to thinking logically are thinking illogically and not thinking. Propositions with stronger proof are more likely to be true, but it's practically impossible to know that what you believe is true. By refusing to change one's belief when a proposition with stronger proof is presented, one is preventing oneself from changing for the better.
At some point, I joined a Christian guild (LTFF) for the sake of talking to them, although I wasn't Christian, and I learnt a little about Christians from that. It seems that they generally use emotional appeals or reports of 'miracles' when they try to persuade people that their beliefs are true. That's not to say that Christians never use logical arguments, but the arguments which I've seen are either fallicious, irrelevant, or weak, and simply put, I was never convinced.
The main issues that I have with Christianity are as follows:
-Free will. Firstly, [there's a link in my signature].
Secondly, even if one assumes that people have free will, their decisions are at least partially affected by their circumstances (genetics, upbringing...) and if one must be Christian to be saved from hell, people raised in a Christian family would have an unfair advantage- God is therefore not being fair.
-"All fall short of the glory of God, and deserve hell". If God is omnipotent and omniscient, then everything which God intends occurs. If people are inherently sinful enough to deserve hell, why did God make humans like that? And why punishment without the purpose of reformation or protection?
-...I might list more, if you wanted me to.
Anyway, may I ask what sort of paper you're writing?
I was brought up without a religion, and religion was never an issue I really thought about, until, when I began using Gaia, I read threads in M&R. Anyway, over some time, I had decided these things:
People generally like to believe what is true, or at least what is beneficial to them. Critically and logically assessing propositions is the best way to ensure this, because the only alternatives to thinking logically are thinking illogically and not thinking. Propositions with stronger proof are more likely to be true, but it's practically impossible to know that what you believe is true. By refusing to change one's belief when a proposition with stronger proof is presented, one is preventing oneself from changing for the better.
At some point, I joined a Christian guild (LTFF) for the sake of talking to them, although I wasn't Christian, and I learnt a little about Christians from that. It seems that they generally use emotional appeals or reports of 'miracles' when they try to persuade people that their beliefs are true. That's not to say that Christians never use logical arguments, but the arguments which I've seen are either fallicious, irrelevant, or weak, and simply put, I was never convinced.
The main issues that I have with Christianity are as follows:
-Free will. Firstly, [there's a link in my signature].
Secondly, even if one assumes that people have free will, their decisions are at least partially affected by their circumstances (genetics, upbringing...) and if one must be Christian to be saved from hell, people raised in a Christian family would have an unfair advantage- God is therefore not being fair.
-"All fall short of the glory of God, and deserve hell". If God is omnipotent and omniscient, then everything which God intends occurs. If people are inherently sinful enough to deserve hell, why did God make humans like that? And why punishment without the purpose of reformation or protection?
-...I might list more, if you wanted me to.
Anyway, may I ask what sort of paper you're writing?
Erratic Distortia
Wow, you are a deep thinker. I applaud you on that and you have my undying respect. 3nodding *hug*
Most of my family are very religious and resort to their faith to help correct their problems. They are also closed-minded about the religion, I am the only atheist in my family. I became atheist because I saw no point in catholicism, christianity or god. Another reason, the more I learned the more I came to realize that there was no mention of god in the creation of the galaxy and whatnot.
My third reason... hypocrisy (sp?). I looked into the crusades, the ten commandments, the Inquisition, and the point of indulgences during the medieval times. In the ten commandments its says "Thou shall not kill." In the crusades and the Inqusition, many were killed due to their faith by catholics and christians. They said it was "God's will" to conquer and sacrifice pagans, muslims, jews, etc. because they didn't believe the same thing. [If my history thing is off a bit, please correct me, it's been a while since my history classes]. My last reason is personal... so I'm not going to elaborate.
Despite my family making me go through communion and making me say I'm catholic because I was baptized as one, I never believed that there was a god. :/
Most of my family are very religious and resort to their faith to help correct their problems. They are also closed-minded about the religion, I am the only atheist in my family. I became atheist because I saw no point in catholicism, christianity or god. Another reason, the more I learned the more I came to realize that there was no mention of god in the creation of the galaxy and whatnot.
My third reason... hypocrisy (sp?). I looked into the crusades, the ten commandments, the Inquisition, and the point of indulgences during the medieval times. In the ten commandments its says "Thou shall not kill." In the crusades and the Inqusition, many were killed due to their faith by catholics and christians. They said it was "God's will" to conquer and sacrifice pagans, muslims, jews, etc. because they didn't believe the same thing. [If my history thing is off a bit, please correct me, it's been a while since my history classes]. My last reason is personal... so I'm not going to elaborate.
Despite my family making me go through communion and making me say I'm catholic because I was baptized as one, I never believed that there was a god. :/
0mFf3Rz
It's like finding yourself. xD
I became an atheist after years of being told what to beleive, why I should beleive if I didn't beleive I was threatened. Also how I became more into learning about the universe around me and this "thing" about God didn't make sense to me. I tried understanding it for a couple years, but to me it's complete bull.
Christianity seemed quite unfair to me after awhile, just a couple years ago I was questioning my sexuality preference but realizing most Christians/Catholics hate the though of homosexuality and bisexulity I considered it very cruel. I kinda branched off after that turning to Wicca for a little bit. Things there didn't make much sense to me either. It's like a kid trying to find herself/himself but doesn't know where to turn. I'd given up on God by then, realized I was really straight, but I didn't wanna look up to someone else for protection. I had relatives die constantly since I was a baby. I nearly lost my both parents when I was 6. I figured that this God couldn't save me, or anyone I cared about. I think that we make our own fate with our own actions and if we mess up we have to pay for it instead of begging for forgiveness and not paying for a mistake.
That's when I guess became an Atheist.
I'm sorry if I don't make much sense, but that's pretty much it.
I hope it helps. sweatdrop
EngelerDeamon
Well, hallo! ^________________^ I'm always happy to see people who aren't close-minded in their faith, so I'll give you an honest answer to my lack of religion.
I'm atheist because I never really had a faith to look at. I mean, yes, my grandfather is a very devote baptist, but he's a quiet one, and so is my grandmother (his wife). My mother is also a Christain, but she's not extremely flaming, either. Though when she found out that I was atheist, things got pretty tense and hectic in the home... but that could be from finding out I was gay at the time too..... sweatdrop
Anyway! I'm atheist because I can't believe in God. I mean, if I tried, I probably could, but I've always been extremely interested in science and such. Of course, the thing that started me towards atheism was the fact I couldn't understand pain and suffering on the whole large scale. And, after really studying and stuff, I realized that there couldn't be a god (excuse me for being so obviously rude to your views). Until I got to the middle of high school, I didn't even know about atheism. When I found out, that's when I decided that's what I was.
Sorry this is so long.... sweatdrop But you did ask, and I've tried not to be too insulting to you.
I'm atheist because I never really had a faith to look at. I mean, yes, my grandfather is a very devote baptist, but he's a quiet one, and so is my grandmother (his wife). My mother is also a Christain, but she's not extremely flaming, either. Though when she found out that I was atheist, things got pretty tense and hectic in the home... but that could be from finding out I was gay at the time too..... sweatdrop
Anyway! I'm atheist because I can't believe in God. I mean, if I tried, I probably could, but I've always been extremely interested in science and such. Of course, the thing that started me towards atheism was the fact I couldn't understand pain and suffering on the whole large scale. And, after really studying and stuff, I realized that there couldn't be a god (excuse me for being so obviously rude to your views). Until I got to the middle of high school, I didn't even know about atheism. When I found out, that's when I decided that's what I was.
Sorry this is so long.... sweatdrop But you did ask, and I've tried not to be too insulting to you.
Sticky Rice
Why am I atheist?
Well, to start off, I've been agnostic my whole life. Never really was taught religion, so I was always unsure.
But this year I officially became atheist.
I looked at old religions, like what the Greeks believed. With the different gods and goddesses and the ways of living. But, their "bible stories" are now called myths.
When 2000 years ago, they were the most practiced and believed things in all of the countries of Ancient Greece.
Is that how Christianity will go? Probably. In my eyes, anyways.
And I have never had any reason to believe in God. A lot of people say they feel him. For a while, I tried that. Oh how I longed to believe. I wanted to be like my friends, always having someone who loves them being in their hearts. I never felt it. I was depressed because I wasn't having the same things that they claimed to have.
After I stopped believing, I started to get happy again. I was being myself, following what made sense to me. It took so much from me to try to believe in something that couldn't be proven to me.
Someone once told me, "Oh, that was the devil inside of you. Separating you from Jesus." I kind of just laughed.
I'm now allowed to make up my own mind?
Religion and God have also become the wrong things for people.
Instead of symbols of having love for one another and generally being a good human being, with the reward of heaven, it's been turned into a comfort blanket. A shield from the real world.
I also don't like the idea of heaven. I mean, I do. A place to stay when you die and all. But I dont like the idea that if you don't worship one god that you instantly go to hell when you die. Why would a God that loves all that he makes send one of his own to hell for believing in him in a different way?
I also don't like the strong dependence on the bible for things to believe in. I do not like how people take everything so literally in it and forget that it was, in fact, written by man. And translated. If the bible were taken literally, we'd all be salt. neutral
I was not born in a family that practices atheism. In fact, I am hiding it from a few family members for their sakes..
I have nothing against the Christians and those who believe. I just don't like how some of them automatically jump to conclusions that the next time I get upset I'm going to assume I have nothing to live for and I'll kill myself...
Well, to start off, I've been agnostic my whole life. Never really was taught religion, so I was always unsure.
But this year I officially became atheist.
I looked at old religions, like what the Greeks believed. With the different gods and goddesses and the ways of living. But, their "bible stories" are now called myths.
When 2000 years ago, they were the most practiced and believed things in all of the countries of Ancient Greece.
Is that how Christianity will go? Probably. In my eyes, anyways.
And I have never had any reason to believe in God. A lot of people say they feel him. For a while, I tried that. Oh how I longed to believe. I wanted to be like my friends, always having someone who loves them being in their hearts. I never felt it. I was depressed because I wasn't having the same things that they claimed to have.
After I stopped believing, I started to get happy again. I was being myself, following what made sense to me. It took so much from me to try to believe in something that couldn't be proven to me.
Someone once told me, "Oh, that was the devil inside of you. Separating you from Jesus." I kind of just laughed.
I'm now allowed to make up my own mind?
Religion and God have also become the wrong things for people.
Instead of symbols of having love for one another and generally being a good human being, with the reward of heaven, it's been turned into a comfort blanket. A shield from the real world.
I also don't like the idea of heaven. I mean, I do. A place to stay when you die and all. But I dont like the idea that if you don't worship one god that you instantly go to hell when you die. Why would a God that loves all that he makes send one of his own to hell for believing in him in a different way?
I also don't like the strong dependence on the bible for things to believe in. I do not like how people take everything so literally in it and forget that it was, in fact, written by man. And translated. If the bible were taken literally, we'd all be salt. neutral
I was not born in a family that practices atheism. In fact, I am hiding it from a few family members for their sakes..
I have nothing against the Christians and those who believe. I just don't like how some of them automatically jump to conclusions that the next time I get upset I'm going to assume I have nothing to live for and I'll kill myself...
Eternalnight666
I am Athiest because i simply don't believe there is any supream diety. There are so many other religions who worship other god peoples and they can't all be right.
also (excluding you) many religions such as christians say that if you don't convert or join you'll go to hell or wherever. being that there are masses saying this and i've found alot of the people in the masses to be mean and nasty i wouldn't want to end up with them any way xp
there is also that so many have died in the name of the christian god. Its horrible all the bloodshed for nothing
You asked about our families... well hmm... I used to go to church with my friend and never was really into it. I got laughed at because i didn't know how to read the bible right with all its chapters and verses. Later when i didn't go to church my mom threatened us when we were bad to go to church...
Now I reply that I refuse to set foot in a building where people can go to be taught a lie. Where people pray for forgivness because they lie to a god that is a lie.
yeah... thats about it
also (excluding you) many religions such as christians say that if you don't convert or join you'll go to hell or wherever. being that there are masses saying this and i've found alot of the people in the masses to be mean and nasty i wouldn't want to end up with them any way xp
there is also that so many have died in the name of the christian god. Its horrible all the bloodshed for nothing
You asked about our families... well hmm... I used to go to church with my friend and never was really into it. I got laughed at because i didn't know how to read the bible right with all its chapters and verses. Later when i didn't go to church my mom threatened us when we were bad to go to church...
Now I reply that I refuse to set foot in a building where people can go to be taught a lie. Where people pray for forgivness because they lie to a god that is a lie.
yeah... thats about it
Azraelswing
Why am I an atheist? Hmm, how to answer to that...? I'd guess it's partly because I've never been taught to believe any god in the first place, and I've had the chance to decide without any bias to one side or another.
In truth, I simply can't see any point in existance of some almight being, to whom we would somehow be special... To me, that smacks of pretty heavy arrogance. We live in a universe that has billions of stars, each having countless worlds. I strongly believe that we are not alone in the universe, and if so, why would we be for some reason so special, our beliefs to be so absolutely right...? For no reason at all.
Even though I cannot prove that there isn't any God, there is no proof for God's existance either. Therefore, for me it simply a logical decicion: There is no god, and until one comes and bites in the butt, I couldn't care less for my lack of faith.
I believe that there is no afterlife, that this is the only life we have as such in this world. Curiously enough, this does not mean I don't automatically believe in super/paranormal. It just means that I have other theories about such things. I end these philosophical ramblings of mine with this little conundrum: I'm such curious little atheist, that while I don't believe in God, I can believe in existance of a soul...
In truth, I simply can't see any point in existance of some almight being, to whom we would somehow be special... To me, that smacks of pretty heavy arrogance. We live in a universe that has billions of stars, each having countless worlds. I strongly believe that we are not alone in the universe, and if so, why would we be for some reason so special, our beliefs to be so absolutely right...? For no reason at all.
Even though I cannot prove that there isn't any God, there is no proof for God's existance either. Therefore, for me it simply a logical decicion: There is no god, and until one comes and bites in the butt, I couldn't care less for my lack of faith.
I believe that there is no afterlife, that this is the only life we have as such in this world. Curiously enough, this does not mean I don't automatically believe in super/paranormal. It just means that I have other theories about such things. I end these philosophical ramblings of mine with this little conundrum: I'm such curious little atheist, that while I don't believe in God, I can believe in existance of a soul...
Aikoni
Wow, this is quite an interesting thread. ^.^
As many others have already done, I applaud you in your respect and courteous..ness...for us. ^^U
Well, many of my experiences and thoughts were scarily similair to Valdae's, (o_0)but I was in a Catholic enviroment) but I have something of my own to add that may or not be of use. But I'll write it anyway. razz
My lack of belief in God is more of a lack of belief in the God that most religions perceive. I believe, in a sorts, that man "created" God. to be open to my theory, one must recognize my belief that people (and pretty much everything, for that matter) gives off energy, like an aura, and contains energy. Some do not believe this, but there are scientific studies done where they use a special type of camera/lens/film (something, I can't quite remember right now ^^U) that took a picture of people's hands and it observed that they were giving off some sort of energy. It wasn't heat, they knew that, but (I can't quite remember if it was a type of light or other energy ^^U Sorry, its summer.) it was some type of energy that changed according to a person's mood and some other factors, acting like an "aura". Also, There are some Wiccan (and other religions have this too) healing techniques that involve concentrating "energy" from your body to a wound or afflicted area of yourself or another person in order to help heal them. But, for this to effectivly work, you have to believe it. Also, there are many things humans can supposedly do with their minds, like telepathic communication bewteen people who are very close. (This does have a point, I just had to state it to show my theory.)
Now, lets say there are many Christians (or any religion, frankly) that truly belive in their God, some more strongly than others, but still all have faith. All over the world, that's a lot of people. Now, if all those people pray (which is like meditation, which many "aura-supporters" believe to heighten your sixth senses) and try to express their devotion and love to God, they are in a way "sending" energy from themselves. Now, over long periods of time, and especially with many extremely devout believers (in any religion), that's a lot of "energy". Could maybe this collection of people's emotions/feelings/such become a powerful force? (It is also said that when a person dies in an extreme state of emotion, like anger, that their spirit can stay there ((I suppose you could say like The Grudge, but I dont really want to use a Hollywood reference)), proving the power of feelings/emotions and such)This is what I believe "God" "is". When people pray to "God" for miracles, or other such things, could not that energy sometimes come upon them and help them in the requested way, like healing someone? Or comfort in a time of crisis? (ALso, many occurences could be coincidence too.) I know that when I went to Disney World, I wasn't overly estatic or anything, but when I got there, just standing there I felt SO HAPPY. You could just "feel" the happiness and such of everyone around you. It wasn't the rides, because I don't get that excited over stuff like that, it was just the energy of everyone circulating. Could this not be like when someone is depressed/angry/the like and they pray to "God", and some "energy" from "God" sweeps over them like the one at Disney World? It makes sense to me. Some people I have told this to that have a similair feeling believe that this "energy mass" has conciousness, but I'm not sure. I think about that one alot.
If you have any questions about my "theory", feel free to ask. ^^
The above theory is not what made me join the atheists. It was (like I said before) alot like Valdae's story. What really made me this way is not the lack of proof for the existence of God, but the abundance of proof to dispel, in a sense, Christianity (I am using Christianity as a reference only because it is what I experienced). I realize that most use the defense that "the point is, its faith and the strength to believe in it" which, in some cases, I find admirable. I, a sense, admire teh Christian's loyalty to what they believe. But anyway, it is abundance of proof against God. Also, just because we can't scientifically prove something yet doesnt mean it was done by God. We have found evidence of our ape ancestry, which was simply not previously known back then, so the Christians provided their own explanation. We now have the evidence, but they simply hold to their beliefs. Also, its has been a belief that those who commit suicide go straight to hell. But now, after medical research has shown suicide is sometimes a chemical inbalance or other physical diease one cannot help, the Church is saying that those are pardoned because its not their fault. So, to me its just a matter of time to explain everything.
Also, this is not necessarily aethiest-belief pertinent, but when I fully grasped the idea that humans are just evolved monkeys, and that thoughts are really simply chemical reactions in the brain, and that since the only purpose of life is to reproduce and survive, I was kind of depressed for a little while. Then, I realized, something. The purpose of life is to reproduce, and that is all. But the meaning of your life is what you make it to be. You control yourself and your destiny as much as you can according to your enviroment, and you create your life out of that. So, in a sense, you can really be anything you want to be. The meaning of your life is what you do. I have chose my meaning and direction, and ever since then I have felt better.
One last thing: I also believe in reincarnation, in a sense. I think people do really have "souls". It's like the "energy" mentioned before. Some people, not necessarily simply intelligent people but "strong" people, when they die, their spirit can sort of live on. Depending on when and what they do each time they come into the world again, they can skip millenia or aquire a vast amount of knowledge and experience. Some say then, why wouldn't one remember it? Well, the memories aren't necessarily in clear-laid out thoughts. Its like feelings. For example, ever since I was really little, I have had a very strong connection to the past. I can't explain it. And some things I feel really nostalgic about, like I've seen/experienced it before. Then, some say "Well, that means you aren't really you. Something else is controlling/overriding you." I dont believe that. I am me. I am my soul. I don't have two souls, its just me. This could also possibly account for why some people are radically different from their families or their enviroment.
Anyway, that's some of my thoughts. I realize some of it seems rather choppy or not thought out, but that's because I'm not that good at expressing myself. ^^U This isn't much compared to everything about this in my head. Sometimes I need direct, specific questions to be able to say something. So, if you want to ask me anything else, go ahead. I hope this helps! If not, then, well, erm...at least it gave me something to do. ^^U
As many others have already done, I applaud you in your respect and courteous..ness...for us. ^^U
Well, many of my experiences and thoughts were scarily similair to Valdae's, (o_0)but I was in a Catholic enviroment) but I have something of my own to add that may or not be of use. But I'll write it anyway. razz
My lack of belief in God is more of a lack of belief in the God that most religions perceive. I believe, in a sorts, that man "created" God. to be open to my theory, one must recognize my belief that people (and pretty much everything, for that matter) gives off energy, like an aura, and contains energy. Some do not believe this, but there are scientific studies done where they use a special type of camera/lens/film (something, I can't quite remember right now ^^U) that took a picture of people's hands and it observed that they were giving off some sort of energy. It wasn't heat, they knew that, but (I can't quite remember if it was a type of light or other energy ^^U Sorry, its summer.) it was some type of energy that changed according to a person's mood and some other factors, acting like an "aura". Also, There are some Wiccan (and other religions have this too) healing techniques that involve concentrating "energy" from your body to a wound or afflicted area of yourself or another person in order to help heal them. But, for this to effectivly work, you have to believe it. Also, there are many things humans can supposedly do with their minds, like telepathic communication bewteen people who are very close. (This does have a point, I just had to state it to show my theory.)
Now, lets say there are many Christians (or any religion, frankly) that truly belive in their God, some more strongly than others, but still all have faith. All over the world, that's a lot of people. Now, if all those people pray (which is like meditation, which many "aura-supporters" believe to heighten your sixth senses) and try to express their devotion and love to God, they are in a way "sending" energy from themselves. Now, over long periods of time, and especially with many extremely devout believers (in any religion), that's a lot of "energy". Could maybe this collection of people's emotions/feelings/such become a powerful force? (It is also said that when a person dies in an extreme state of emotion, like anger, that their spirit can stay there ((I suppose you could say like The Grudge, but I dont really want to use a Hollywood reference)), proving the power of feelings/emotions and such)This is what I believe "God" "is". When people pray to "God" for miracles, or other such things, could not that energy sometimes come upon them and help them in the requested way, like healing someone? Or comfort in a time of crisis? (ALso, many occurences could be coincidence too.) I know that when I went to Disney World, I wasn't overly estatic or anything, but when I got there, just standing there I felt SO HAPPY. You could just "feel" the happiness and such of everyone around you. It wasn't the rides, because I don't get that excited over stuff like that, it was just the energy of everyone circulating. Could this not be like when someone is depressed/angry/the like and they pray to "God", and some "energy" from "God" sweeps over them like the one at Disney World? It makes sense to me. Some people I have told this to that have a similair feeling believe that this "energy mass" has conciousness, but I'm not sure. I think about that one alot.
If you have any questions about my "theory", feel free to ask. ^^
The above theory is not what made me join the atheists. It was (like I said before) alot like Valdae's story. What really made me this way is not the lack of proof for the existence of God, but the abundance of proof to dispel, in a sense, Christianity (I am using Christianity as a reference only because it is what I experienced). I realize that most use the defense that "the point is, its faith and the strength to believe in it" which, in some cases, I find admirable. I, a sense, admire teh Christian's loyalty to what they believe. But anyway, it is abundance of proof against God. Also, just because we can't scientifically prove something yet doesnt mean it was done by God. We have found evidence of our ape ancestry, which was simply not previously known back then, so the Christians provided their own explanation. We now have the evidence, but they simply hold to their beliefs. Also, its has been a belief that those who commit suicide go straight to hell. But now, after medical research has shown suicide is sometimes a chemical inbalance or other physical diease one cannot help, the Church is saying that those are pardoned because its not their fault. So, to me its just a matter of time to explain everything.
Also, this is not necessarily aethiest-belief pertinent, but when I fully grasped the idea that humans are just evolved monkeys, and that thoughts are really simply chemical reactions in the brain, and that since the only purpose of life is to reproduce and survive, I was kind of depressed for a little while. Then, I realized, something. The purpose of life is to reproduce, and that is all. But the meaning of your life is what you make it to be. You control yourself and your destiny as much as you can according to your enviroment, and you create your life out of that. So, in a sense, you can really be anything you want to be. The meaning of your life is what you do. I have chose my meaning and direction, and ever since then I have felt better.
One last thing: I also believe in reincarnation, in a sense. I think people do really have "souls". It's like the "energy" mentioned before. Some people, not necessarily simply intelligent people but "strong" people, when they die, their spirit can sort of live on. Depending on when and what they do each time they come into the world again, they can skip millenia or aquire a vast amount of knowledge and experience. Some say then, why wouldn't one remember it? Well, the memories aren't necessarily in clear-laid out thoughts. Its like feelings. For example, ever since I was really little, I have had a very strong connection to the past. I can't explain it. And some things I feel really nostalgic about, like I've seen/experienced it before. Then, some say "Well, that means you aren't really you. Something else is controlling/overriding you." I dont believe that. I am me. I am my soul. I don't have two souls, its just me. This could also possibly account for why some people are radically different from their families or their enviroment.
Anyway, that's some of my thoughts. I realize some of it seems rather choppy or not thought out, but that's because I'm not that good at expressing myself. ^^U This isn't much compared to everything about this in my head. Sometimes I need direct, specific questions to be able to say something. So, if you want to ask me anything else, go ahead. I hope this helps! If not, then, well, erm...at least it gave me something to do. ^^U
