Young children, treated only as an extension of the parent

[Grip of Death]

Heres something else to chew on...

*please forgive me for missing the apostrophes where needed, my browser is not allowing me to type them out. thank you.

Sure, many pro-choicers agree on the sentience and development of a newborn, breathing child.

But how do the parents tend to look after the very little kids? ... kinda like extensions, rather than full people.

For example, for this halloween I know a single mother friend who dressed her 18 month old son in a winged monkey costume. Were not disputing that it is a cute outfit. Its just an observation that the child had no say or preference in what he wore, rather, it was the mother than imposed her decision on him.

Its not until the child grows old enough to talk and intervene on its own behalf when it is seen more as an individual.

Thoughts, comments, questions?  

[Trite~Elegy]

That is very much true.
hell, to most, you're not seen as an adult till you're 18 years old, which imo is complete bullshit, due to the fact at that time you're old enough and have been for quite a few years to have children of your own and make serious decisions on your behalf about wether you live or die.

That mentality seriously needs to change.
I'll use an example of my own, since well I kind of and should know everything right?

anyways
My mother was a teen mother.
she was basically forced to have me - but thats a whole different story.

The problem is, she did not like who she had gotten pregnant by - my father.
so over the years of my childhood she has done everything short of killing him to keep him away from me or to make him and my fathers side of the familiy miserable - just because she, did not like who my father was. To her it did not matter, that in her pursuits to hurt my father, she was hurting me. she did not care.
Did I ever get a say in any of this?
never.
Who would I side with?
My father.
Who do the courts normally side with? the mother.
excuse me, but is this case not about me?
it seems like it isn't, hell, even my mother has told me over and over that anything I want or say does not count so I should just shut up and stop trying.
Great huh?
Has anybody ever truely listenend to what I want?

Nope.

I've been abused physically and mentally.
I've been arrested at age 13, a few days after my birthday, because the cops were friends of the person who was abusing me.
the courts overlooked my case and wrote it off as a mental sickness.
yes I must be insane.

After 16 years, I finally been able to get one word in.
one person listened.
and after 7 years, I might finally be able to see my father again in a few weeks.

I just have to hope to that nothing goes awry, because I've still got a year and a half before I stop being a non-person. neutral  

[Half Baked SF]

What you saw was no different from dressing newborns in regular clothing every day. Why are there no disputes over dressing babies vs. allowing them to run around naked until they're two?

Though I do see your point about treating children as an extension, I don't think evidence fo this lies in clothing.

(I didn't intend for this post to be hostile. I just can't think of any nicer wording.)  

[Akhakhu]

I have to play devil's advocate on this one.

I was babysitting a three-year-old for a while. On my first evening with him, I had all these notions of what an awesome babysitter I was going to be (I'm sure Beatrix is reading this saying "Aaah, silly girl! Bet you got it for THAT!"). So it came time for bed and I said "Ok, I want you to go to the drawers and pick out the PJs you want to wear!"

So the little kid toddles off and comes back in. He'd decided to take my instructions a step further and dress himself. He was wearing wellies on his hands, underwear on his head, and very little else. Very VERY little else.

And that was when I stopped being the lessez-faire babysitter and started picking out PJs for him.

Now, I do certainly see where you are coming from. And in terms of the law, we have cases all the time of decisions being made for kids that are by far not in their best interests. As an example, I had an abusive nanny for a full year and a half (I told EVERYTHING she did to my mother every single night) before my mom finally intervened and got someone else. What made her finally believe me and get rid of the woman? She stole money from my mother's room. My mother just gave me a condescending smile every time I told her that my nanny was hitting me, making me do her work, having guests when she wasn't supposed to, or locking me in the bathroom for hours so that she could have "alone time" with her boyfriend. It was only when it directly affected HER that my mom actually listened.

But coming back to my original story, I think that it's a very fine line. The laws are there because kids lack the ability to make good decisions (lack of experience, but also just the lack of physiological maturation - they just cannot think of consequences as we can). So where do you draw the line? At what point do you take so much power out of parents' hands that it becomes MORE dangerous for kids?

I get this all the time in discussions about child abuse. If my kid started running out into a busy road, I would grab him/her. I would not be careful not to bruise or cause any pain. I would be trying to prevent the more immediate and more terrible danger. If I accidentally pull my kid's hair, bruise his/her shoulder, or even break his/her arm - I consider that worth it to save his/her life. But I know that there would be people who would call that abuse. I am almost certain that, if there are other people around, at least some will look at me as though I were a monster.  

[EmmsRiverwalley]

I believe that it is all right for parents to dress their children until the child is able to say "I want the red pants, not the blue ones!" Or... whatever.

What sometimes disturbs me though is when a parent dresses the child up weirdly, like the example about Halloween outfits.

I will do my best to dress my child well. Probably basing off, yes, what I might want to wear or think would look nice on my child. I will also do my best not to hinder my child from developing it's own style once it is ready to... though there are definitely some choices I would have a hard time allowing, if at all.

SOMEONE needs to dress the baby, we just don't need to make it so "ultra cute" or whatever. Think of what the kid will say once it's a teen and you're sitting there showing all these embarrassing photos to it's friends. That'd suck major.

Someone mentioned an abusive nanny. I hope that makes you more open to what your own kids might one day have to say about nannies or anyone else being mean to them. I have heard/read too many stories about abusive people that the parents heard about, but didn't stop - like a mother with a new boyfriend that is bad to the kids, but then she sides with her boyfriend, not the kids. What kind of mum is that, anyway?  

[KoopaTroopa18]

Trite~Elegy

That is very much true.
hell, to most, you're not seen as an adult till you're 18 years old, which imo is complete bullshit, due to the fact at that time you're old enough and have been for quite a few years to have children of your own and make serious decisions on your behalf about wether you live or die.

That mentality seriously needs to change.
I'll use an example of my own, since well I kind of and should know everything right?

anyways
My mother was a teen mother.
she was basically forced to have me - but thats a whole different story.

The problem is, she did not like who she had gotten pregnant by - my father.
so over the years of my childhood she has done everything short of killing him to keep him away from me or to make him and my fathers side of the familiy miserable - just because she, did not like who my father was. To her it did not matter, that in her pursuits to hurt my father, she was hurting me. she did not care.
Did I ever get a say in any of this?
never.
Who would I side with?
My father.
Who do the courts normally side with? the mother.
excuse me, but is this case not about me?
it seems like it isn't, hell, even my mother has told me over and over that anything I want or say does not count so I should just shut up and stop trying.
Great huh?
Has anybody ever truely listenend to what I want?

Nope.

I've been abused physically and mentally.
I've been arrested at age 13, a few days after my birthday, because the cops were friends of the person who was abusing me.
the courts overlooked my case and wrote it off as a mental sickness.
yes I must be insane.

After 16 years, I finally been able to get one word in.
one person listened.
and after 7 years, I might finally be able to see my father again in a few weeks.

I just have to hope to that nothing goes awry, because I've still got a year and a half before I stop being a non-person. neutral

*hugs* your example reminds me of all the stories where a parent will kidnap a child just so they can get back at their spouse or girlfriend/boyfriend. Then they tell the kid that that person was abusing them and that they will have a better life with the parent who took them, then that parent abuses them or the child finds out later that they were kidnapped and think "How could ____ do that?" or they still defend the parent thinking they are better with them than the parent that could actually take care of them.

Also reminds me of this L&W SVU where a father says that his wife lied about him so that she could keep the children and his son was into drugs and his daughter cut herself to try to get her mother's attention all because his wife hated him.