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 Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:47 pm
Ok if this is too long or what not go ahead and delete it I guess i just wanted to get this off my chest and make sure i am...... I guess just in my actions? Is that the right thing to say? I dont know I am just a little "head is spinning and life is flying by" type of mood
to what level am i to protect the innocent and what is innocent?
At what level do i get to say you are not innocent enough? At what point do you have enough evil in you to constitute not being saved. As you may or may not know I work in security as a bouncer for a bar around my home. It is a field that i have been in on and off for close to 15 years (yes for those of you doing the math i work at a club before i could get into a club [yes i lied on my application i look old enough ok]). Recently i was issued a M-18 Airtaser a nonlethal form of subdument. Well today i had the chance to use my new "toy." While heading to work i noticed on the side of the road a man accosting a woman. Since i was in traffic i paid attention to them, but after the man struck her down i figured it was time to get involved. After about 5 mins of him yelling at me to shut the "F" up and various other colorful words and after i had the police on the line he decide to draw a knife. At this point i drew my taser and told him that he needed to get on the ground and drop the weapon. To this he used a few more color phrase and told me he was going to carve this woman a new wind pipe. I was able to get inbetween them both and since he did not heed my warning. At this point the police did show up and at first the drew their weapons at both of us. One of them noticed that i was carrying an air taser to which they all switched targets to the other man. The man became more and more hostile to both me and the police and since i was the closest to him and had the only nonlethal weapon trained on him, i finally got the nod from the police. The man went down like a sack of screaming potatoes. Well at this time the police where all over him and the Paramedics where helping the women.
Now we come to the kicker the women, the innocent i thought i was saving.....
she had just run over this mans children as the where walking home from school. Her alcohol level was .12 way above drunk. Both kids will be fine one just got bruised real good and the other has a broken leg and bruises. Did that women deserve what she had coming to her? Did that man deserve having 50k volts go through him?
To me one of the worst possible things one can do is drink and drive, i mean to me it is murder period. There is nothing worse then maybe killing someone or many people and then getting to live to see them all buried. I cant type the words to describe the hatred i have for these kind of people. And yet i defended her without knowing that this was her 4th DUI. The most sad part is..... even if i did know, even knowing how horrible this woman is.... I would have done the same thing. What does that make me?
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Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 8:23 pm
When I first started reading your post I was thinking like you probably were thinking at that time and that was trying to keep that man from harming this woman and how could you have known why this man was reacting the way that he was. I won't say hate but I truly detest people who drive while drinking or drunk and it was a good thing that the kids were not killed because of her ignorance/stupidity. Had I been in your situation and come across this I know I would have done the exact same thing that you did and that was to try to help the woman but after I found out what had really happened I think I might have kicked her in her butt real hard and pretended like I was trying to keep myself from falling. Don't beat yourself up because you did something that probably most people would have done and believe me if she continues to get drunk she just might unfortunately hurt or kill someone and will have to live with that for the rest of her life.
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Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:50 am
I think you did the right thing, it's just an awful, awful situation. I'm so glad the kids are going to be okay...
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Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:43 pm
I was a force protection instructor out in San Diego (where I'm headed back to soon, thank God). His holding a knife to her and yourself, even the initial attack on her would've waranted the use of deadly force. You have to remember perception is everything, and unless the person attacking is in uniform, you need to assist. You did the rigth thing, and probably saved him prison time and even his life. Hopefully the police are handling the situation in regards and aren't going to hold him for anything. You followed correct protocol by the sounds of it and should actually pat yourself on the back.
You also obviously used the "force pyramid" and applied the appropriate levels as needed. First with command presence the using the appropriate level of force. While you used a non lethal weapon, I still felt telling you further force (which you saved the cops from using) would have been authorised.
Deadly Force: Force that a person uses causing, or that a person knows or
should know would create a substantial risk of causing, death or serious bodily harm.
When deadly force reasonably appears to be necessary against a hostile person(s) to protect law enforcement or security personnel who reasonably believe themselves or others to be in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm by the hostile person(s).
Assets Involving National Security. When deadly force
reasonably appears necessary to prevent the actual theft or sabotage of assets vital to national security. DoD assets shall be specifically designated as "vital to national security" only when their loss, damage, or compromise would seriously jeopardize the fulfillment of a national defense mission. Examples include nuclear weapons; nuclear command, control, and communications facilities; and designated restricted areas containing strategic operational assets, sensitive codes, or special access programs.
Assets Not Involving National Security But Inherently
Dangerous To Others. When deadly force reasonably appears to be necessary to prevent the actual theft or sabotage of resources, such as operable weapons or ammunition, that are inherently dangerous to others; i.e., assets that, in the hands of an unauthorized individual, present a substantial potential danger of death or serious bodily harm to others. Examples include high-risk portable and lethal missiles, rockets, arms,
ammunition, explosives, chemical agents, and special nuclear material.
Serious Offenses Against Persons. When deadly force
reasonably appears necessary to prevent the commission of a serious crime that involves imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm (for example, setting fire to an inhabited dwelling or sniping), including the defense of other persons, where deadly force is directed against the person threatening to commit the crime. Examples include murder, armed robbery, and aggravated assault.
Protect Public Health or Safety. When deadly force reasonably appears to be necessary to prevent the destruction of public utilities or
similar critical infrastructure vital to public health or safety, the damage to which, would create an imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm.
Arrest or Apprehension. When deadly force reasonably
appears to be necessary to arrest or apprehend a person who, there is probable cause to believe, has committed one of the serious offenses referred to in subparagraphs E2.1.2.3.2. through E2.1.2.3.5., above.
Escape. When deadly force has been specifically authorized
by the Heads of the DoD Components and reasonably appears to be necessary to prevent the escape of a prisoner, provided there is probable cause to believe that such person:
E2.1.2.3.7.1 Has committed or attempted to commit one of the
serious offenses referred to in subparagraphs E2.1.2.3.2. through E2.1.2.3.5., above; and
E2.1.2.3.7.2 Would pose an imminent danger of death or serious
bodily harm to law enforcement or security personnel or to any other person.
Now these are DoD and really wouldn't apply, I just wanted to show you some examples. It really isn't for you (or anyone else who is not civilian law enforcement or military) to play the "hero", you still did the right thing.
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Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:39 pm
Poor kids. I can sympathize with your frustration. I think you did the right thing, too, you had to keep order and he drew a knife. It does not make you a bad person. If anything, you kept the man from potentially going to jail for murder, and his kids wouldn't want/need that.
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Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:59 pm
I totally understand where you are coming from... But the minute they guy hurt her he was over the line. Like us in canada you have a system of laws to protect people and prosecutes those who break the laws.
You did great and I applaud you for your actions...
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:52 am
lunashock Poor kids. I can sympathize with your frustration. I think you did the right thing, too, you had to keep order and he drew a knife. It does not make you a bad person. If anything, you kept the man from potentially going to jail for murder, and his kids wouldn't want/need that.
I wouldn't look at it so much as having assisted the woman, as having saved this man from further ruining his life and hurting his children by not being around.
I can understand why you're struggling with it though. sad
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:15 am
Pirate Dirge lunashock Poor kids. I can sympathize with your frustration. I think you did the right thing, too, you had to keep order and he drew a knife. It does not make you a bad person. If anything, you kept the man from potentially going to jail for murder, and his kids wouldn't want/need that.
I wouldn't look at it so much as having assisted the woman, as having saved this man from further ruining his life and hurting his children by not being around.
I can understand why you're struggling with it though. sad
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:48 am
Eek! Well, that's just a bad situation all around. Of course the lady shouldn't have been driving drunk, and of course her hitting of the children with her vehicle is pretty near unforgivable, but the guy really shouldn't have reacted the way he did, I mean, that sort of reaction isn't going to help anybody, anyway. If I saw a guy beating on a woman in the middle of the street, I wouldn't think "Oh, she must have done something to deserve it," because, obviously, beating someone in the middle of the street is rarely justifiable, especially in a man vs. woman situation. I would have immidiately thought it was some sort of domestic violence issue and called the police. You did the right thing.. pulling a knife is overreacting and you kept him from getting in even more trouble then he needed to be in. eek eek You're brave!
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:18 pm
Wow Guys, Thank you does not convay my feelings. I guess i just really needed to hear it, I am very glad that i am here in this Guild
Thank you all so much again.
Archangel Lionheart thanks that is great info
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Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:06 am
Raien3 Wow Guys, Thank you does not convay my feelings. I guess i just really needed to hear it, I am very glad that i am here in this Guild Thank you all so much again. Archangel Lionheart thanks that is great info No problem. If I can help with anything, let me know. Keep us posted if you can please. I'm really interested in how this will turn out.
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Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:41 pm
Raien3 Wow Guys, Thank you does not convay my feelings. I guess i just really needed to hear it, I am very glad that i am here in this Guild Thank you all so much again. Archangel Lionheart thanks that is great info you are so welcome, we are glad you are here too.. I love this place.
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