Calling abortion murder: Appeal to Pity/Emotion

[Lord Setar]

That's right. We don't have to debate the definition anymore. Calling abortion murder in a debate is an appeal to pity. Murder is the most emotionally loaded term on the planet, as it is, anywhere, the most heinous crime in the eyes of society. This makes likening -anything- to murder an appeal to emotion.

Furthermore, calling the fetus a "child" or a "baby" to your ordinary, average joe will evoke images of giggling, happy toddlers. This is also an appeal to emotion, and it makes the fallacy worse when you say abortion is "murdering a child/baby" because people will stop and go "How can they do that?" because while murder is bad, murdering a child(especially if it's your own) is seen as worse.  

[Half Baked SF]

Anything that compared abortion to murder is ignorant and has no place in an informed debate.

HOWEVER, I can have a bit of leniency with child/baby. There is a difference with having someone, perhaps a parent, refer to the fetus as a child or baby because it is more comfortable with them, and saying "NO KILLING BABIES! lol what's a fetus?"  

[nobhdy]

I'm going to agree with you, but we should extend it to not making any retarded statements used to evoke emotions. e.g. No more saying that a fetus is "raping your body," when it clearly isn't.  

[October Cross]

nobhdy

I'm going to agree with you, but we should extend it to not making any retarded statements used to evoke emotions. e.g. No more saying that a fetus is "raping your body," when it clearly isn't.

Well, in some context, it is. Ever heard of soldiers "raping the land" when they hold ground combat somewhere? Or of over-farmed areas being "raped of nutritious soil"?

The fetus is raping a woman's body of nutrients. It isn't forcing sex upon a woman, by any means, but it is pulling most of the beneficial parts of food consumed by the woman to make sure it is healthy. That's why a lot of doctors put pregnant women on vitamins to make sure that she is healthy enough to carry to baby while the baby is healthy enough to survive.  

[nobhdy]

Ah. Those examples that you used are still metaphors used to evoke sympathy!  

[October Cross]

nobhdy

Ah. Those examples that you used are still metaphors used to evoke sympathy!

That is because rape has become an extremely emotional word. It's got a ton of attachments to it. I'd rather call it "sharing" when it comes to the nutrients a fetus gets from a pregnant woman, but honestly, rape works as well.

The examples were to show you that rape can be used in several contexts with the same vague meaning as rape. I doubt if I told someone over-farmed land was "raped of nutrients" they would suddenly get all huffy about it and flip out. I made a comment in class to a classmate about studying "raping my brain of function." and they seemed pretty shocked, since it is not every day context.

Usually when we hear "Rape" we think "Some dirty guy just forced intercourse on someone else."  

[WatersMoon110]

I agree that all appeals to pity/sympothy should be called out as such (no matter what side the person is on). But I also think that more mention should be made of other points, since pointing out flaws in termonology can be rather petty, and usually just gets a reply of "but it IS murder/a baby/a puppy/etc. TO ME!!!" even when other, more relavent points were made in the same post.

As far as my own actions, I plan to still remind people that the legal definition of murder doesn't include abortion (abortion is killing, but not murder), but I am going to make an effort to allow Pro-Lifers to use any appliable term to refer to an unborn human (fetus, baby, child, human, organism, unborn, etc.), since it is rather petty and pointless to endlessly point out why using such terms to evoke an emotional responce is wrong and (in the case of the Debate) harming to their argument.  

[nobhdy]

October Cross

nobhdy

Ah. Those examples that you used are still metaphors used to evoke sympathy!

That is because rape has become an extremely emotional word. It's got a ton of attachments to it. I'd rather call it "sharing" when it comes to the nutrients a fetus gets from a pregnant woman, but honestly, rape works as well.

The examples were to show you that rape can be used in several contexts with the same vague meaning as rape. I doubt if I told someone over-farmed land was "raped of nutrients" they would suddenly get all huffy about it and flip out. I made a comment in class to a classmate about studying "raping my brain of function." and they seemed pretty shocked, since it is not every day context.

Usually when we hear "Rape" we think "Some dirty guy just forced intercourse on someone else."

But don't you see? It is the exact same thing that he said not to do. Just because the word has entered our vocabulary as an idiomatic expression doesn't mean that it no longer emotionally charged and no longer retains its original definition.

When you are saying that a fetus is raping you, it is for an emotional reaction. Same as calling it murdering a child.  

[Talon-chan]

nobhdy

October Cross

nobhdy

Ah. Those examples that you used are still metaphors used to evoke sympathy!

That is because rape has become an extremely emotional word. It's got a ton of attachments to it. I'd rather call it "sharing" when it comes to the nutrients a fetus gets from a pregnant woman, but honestly, rape works as well.

The examples were to show you that rape can be used in several contexts with the same vague meaning as rape. I doubt if I told someone over-farmed land was "raped of nutrients" they would suddenly get all huffy about it and flip out. I made a comment in class to a classmate about studying "raping my brain of function." and they seemed pretty shocked, since it is not every day context.

Usually when we hear "Rape" we think "Some dirty guy just forced intercourse on someone else."

But don't you see? It is the exact same thing that he said not to do. Just because the word has entered our vocabulary as an idiomatic expression doesn't mean that it no longer emotionally charged and no longer retains its original definition.

When you are saying that a fetus is raping you, it is for an emotional reaction. Same as calling it murdering a child.

The problem is this:

There is no word to describe what pro-lifers feel abortion is, the closest thing they've got is murder.

There is no word to describe what pro-choicers feel a fetus is doing to a woman, the closest thing they've got is rape.

I am of the opinion that one can argue abortion is like murder and unwanted/forced pregnancy is like rape, so long as it is clear one is not making a legal statement and acknowledge the emotionally chargedness of the word (and are willing to debate semantics should one's usage be challenged). Using emotionally charged words is not the fallacy. Using emotionally charged words as justification for the argument is a fallacy.

I can legitimately describe the over-farming of the land as "raping the land" and not fall prey to fallacy. If my argument relies entirely on the emotionally chargedness of "rape" and I have no justification for saying the land is raped (ie I don't know it is over-farmed, I can't prove it is over-farmed, I just think it is), then raped is inappropriate and fallacious.  

[nobhdy]

Talon-chan

The problem is this:

There is no word to describe what pro-lifers feel abortion is, the closest thing they've got is murder.

There is no word to describe what pro-choicers feel a fetus is doing to a woman, the closest thing they've got is rape.

I am of the opinion that one can argue abortion is like murder and unwanted/forced pregnancy is like rape, so long as it is clear one is not making a legal statement and acknowledge the emotionally chargedness of the word (and are willing to debate semantics should one's usage be challenged). Using emotionally charged words is not the fallacy. Using emotionally charged words as justification for the argument is a fallacy.

I can legitimately describe the over-farming of the land as "raping the land" and not fall prey to fallacy. If my argument relies entirely on the emotionally chargedness of "rape" and I have no justification for saying the land is raped (ie I don't know it is over-farmed, I can't prove it is over-farmed, I just think it is), then raped is inappropriate and fallacious.

You are absolutely correct. That truly is the difference. I stand corrected, and you deserve kudos.  

[PhaedraMcSpiffy]

You're preachin' to the choir, Setar. We're all sick of it.

And thank you, October, for clearing that up.

It's not the inncorrect use of the term "murder" that bothers me, it's the appeal to emotion and pity as if those arguments were more valid than bodily domain. It's that they're trying the claim the emotional high ground and shame us. They're saying "You murderers, you're sick." when all we want is for it to be legal and safe for a woman to remove a zygote, embryo or fetus. All we want is the right to control our destinies and they're accusing us of being bad people for it.  

[October Cross]

PhaedraMcSpiffy

You're preachin' to the choir, Setar. We're all sick of it.

And thank you, October, for clearing that up.

It's not the inncorrect use of the term "murder" that bothers me, it's the appeal to emotion and pity as if those arguments were more valid than bodily domain. It's that they're trying the claim the emotional high ground and shame us. They're saying "You murderers, you're sick." when all we want is for it to be legal and safe for a woman to remove a zygote, embryo or fetus. All we want is the right to control our destinies and they're accusing us of being bad people for it.

I agree on the preachin' to the choir. I hear it and HALLELUJA (sp!? wtf is my problem lately with spelling?) I feeeeel it.

I just thought I'd like to add that today, I murdered a spider. Yes. A big hairy black one in my bushes. I sprayed it with raid. It was a beautiful thing, the murder. Ah, the sweet smell of bug chemicals still burns my nostrils.

I'm just sick of people trying to gain sympathy. I've been really frustrated at the pro-life movement (not particularly the guild here on Gaia, since I am familiar with a lot of them now as well as their stance and don't really get as frustrated with them.) as of late for a lot of that.  

[PhaedraMcSpiffy]

It's not even the attempt to gain sympathy, really, that pisses me off.

Because it really is okay with me if they, personally, think that abortion is wrong and as bad as murder. What I won't tolerate is their forcing this view on me, intentionally or unintentionally denying my right to control my body. What I can't stand is when they use this sympathy for the fetus and for their side to make this side look like a bunch of evil, sick people. Like just because we don't share their morals or opinion on what "life" is, we're the bad guys. I'm not going to put up with it. I won't let them make me look bad for supporting bodily domain, personal autonomy, and full reproductive rights.  

[The Velveteen Violinist]

October Cross

nobhdy

Ah. Those examples that you used are still metaphors used to evoke sympathy!

That is because rape has become an extremely emotional word. It's got a ton of attachments to it. I'd rather call it "sharing" when it comes to the nutrients a fetus gets from a pregnant woman, but honestly, rape works as well.

The examples were to show you that rape can be used in several contexts with the same vague meaning as rape. I doubt if I told someone over-farmed land was "raped of nutrients" they would suddenly get all huffy about it and flip out. I made a comment in class to a classmate about studying "raping my brain of function." and they seemed pretty shocked, since it is not every day context.

Usually when we hear "Rape" we think "Some dirty guy just forced intercourse on someone else."

Yes, or we think harrassment, crime, and abuse...

Personally, I just use the term "Using my body".

But.. But... If we can't evoke emotional pleas, HOW THE HELL DO WE SPREAD PROPOGANDA? rofl  

[MipsyKitten]

I was going to create a new thread, but remembered this one, so yeah.

I was flicking through the channels the other day, and clicked onto the Christian channel. *shudders*

Anyway, the first words out of teh guy's mouth were,

"PARTIAL BIRTH ABORTION!

Blah, blah, lies, blah, blah, innocent unborn, blah, blah, blah, they're born then killed, lies, blah, lies, accept Jebus, Bush is God, blah, lies, I touch alter boys, blah, blah, VOTE OR BE DAMNED!" etc.

Anyway, what got me most was where the guy was making his little 'speech'. A kid's playgound. That's right folks. A brightly coloured playground, probably at some Christian school in Bible Belt USA.

WTF? Trying to invoke images of little kids much?

Oh, and the drawing of the 'PBA' was of a person's gloved hands holding the head of a fetus half in the uterus. The woman's v****a looked like rubber. I'd cut mine out if it looked like that. Srsy.