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nonameladyofsins

PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:48 pm


So, I got this pm, and I thought it was really interesting, so I'm posting it for you to read and post your ideas about it, if anyone is interested. I shall be repsonding to it as well as posting my answer in this thread. Here it is. the person shall remain anonymous, as requested.
_____________________________________________________________
Dear poweroutage,

I'm PM-ing you because I need your expertise as someone who comprehends matters of physics much better than I do. (More a matter of astronomical physics actually.)

A number of years ago, I came across a book in a library called The Antigravity Handbook, and I took some notes from it. I don't know if you're familiar with that kind of genre of literature, but it featured stuff about (in addition to anti-gravity) time travel, mythological Vedic airships known as "vimanas," UFO grids and what-not. Now, the essay that really stuck in my mind was called "How to Build a Flying Saucer," so a number of years later I took my notes and started plonking various phrases in them into search engines. Now I don't know if this was before or after I bought a book called "How to Build a Flying Saucer and Other Proposals in Speculative Engineering" from a used bookstore on Bloor street west, in any event the book in question is also on the web. What I want to ask relates to chapter three of the book. The chapter's entitled "Beyond Velikovsky: Einstein's Relativity Demostrated, Mining Pure Energy from Empty Space, and the Green Hills of Mars." Now, there are a lot of parts where even I can say, "Wait a minute, this is some bullshit," but there are other parts where I'm not so sure and it seems to me that the ******** (T.B. Pawlicki is his name) just might actually be on to something. (This is also true of Chapter 5: The Philospher's Stone, but I'm only going to talk about Chapter 3 here. Chapter 1, incidentally, contains no kooky or pseudoscientific ideas whatsoever and outlines a perfectly plausible method by which the Pyramids may have been built.)

Pawlicki begins by stating:

Quote:
Every planet in the Solar System exhibits some anomaly that proves the Nebular Hypothesis could not possibly have happened the way we are told in school


and he then begins to outline the anomalies:

Quote:
Jupiter has one tenth the diameter of the Sun, but it rotates a hundred times faster. Volume is diameter cubed, and momentum is one half of velocity squared.

[I have no idea if that's true or not]

Therefore, the Sun has a thousand times the volume of Jupiter, but Jupiter has five times the angular momentum. Jupiter is also a fairly dense planet, containing more mass than all the rest of the Solar System combined, outside of the Sun. Therefore, even after we make allowances for difference of radius, quick and dirty calculation indicates that Jupiter has about as much angular momentum as all the rest of the Solar System put together, including the Sun.

But that should not be! You see, if all the rotational energy in the Solar System is generated by gravitational collapse, then almost all the momentum in the Solar System must be concentrated in the Sun. While not altogether impossible, it is exceedingly unlikely for any planetary material to be flung away from a condensing core without losing the rotational momentum it acquired by condensing in the first place.


Now it seems if he has a point here. I don't know if he does, but it seems plausible. Now he goes on to Venus, and after remarking on the well-known backwards rotation,

Quote:
Dust clouds whirling in space are almost certain to be as homogeneous as any other gaseous mixture, so why is the chemistry of Venus grossly different from all the other inner planets?

[Actually, I'm fairly sure that's a Velikovskian myth, but let's continue....]

And why did Venus just happen to lock into a three-two orbital-rotational ratio with the Earth without inducing corresponding changes in the angular momentum of our planet? We are, after all, more alike in size and mass than any other bodies in the system, so any gravitational friction between us should he settled by mutual compromise; instead, Venus gave in to us entirely.


He puts in another way in something else I found somewhere on the web: "If the Earth can lock Venus by tide, can Jupiter, a thousand times larger, have no effect on the rest of the planets --- even on the Sun? Considering that Venus and Earth have almost the same mass, there is no reason why our day is not tuned by Venus to the same degree that the Venusian day is tuned to our year." This also mades sense, though I suspect there's a good reason that's not a fringe one to explain it, but I have no idea what it is.

I'll skip over the discussion of the Moon except to remark that he says "If the Moon was flung from the Earth, she had to take most of our angular momentum with her; our original day must have been as short as Saturn’s, and where did a Minor Planet acquire so much angular momentum?" (from the seperate source I just mentioned) Now, Mars:

Quote:
The polar axes of the Earth and Mars are tilted nearly 30 degrees from the plane of their orbits. When a nebula condenses into a disc, all spins must be in the same plane. One of Mars's satellites, Phobos, completes an orbital revolution before Mars makes a polar rotation. Such excess of angular velocity makes Phobos one body in the solar system that could have been cast off by centrifugal force, but it is generally agreed to be a captured asteroid.


I'm not sure that the orbital tilt is such a big deal, but again, I don't know (like Socrates at least I know that I don't know). Saturn:

Quote:
The Nebular Hypothesis does not explain why Saturn should be so egregiously favored [with rings] while Jupiter has practically no rings to show for itself.


Uranus:

Quote:
The axis of Uranus and the revolutionary plane of all its satellites are at right angles to the plane of the rest of the solar system....It is impossible for the velocities of the Uranian system to have evolved at right angles to the solar nebula that created it; it had to have been rolled over onto its side by an interplanetary collision.

[That much is obvious.]

The amount of energy required to rotate the axes of a spinning body 90 degrees is equal to its rotational momentum.

[No idea if that is fact or not.]

Uranus is one of the giant planets; an impact sufficient to knock a giant planet onto its side could he delivered by nothing less than a direct impact with another giant planet or a near collision with a celestial body many times more massive. But no other planet can possibly exist in the same region of Uranus' solar orbit while traveling in the opposite direction, necessary if a collision is to take place. Therefore, the anomaly of Uranus can be accounted for most satisfactorily he proposing that an alien star entered the Solar System on a collision course from the interstellar reaches.

If the alien star were the same size as Uranus, a direct impact would be necessary to make the Uranian system turn right about. But a direct impact would have exploded both celestial bodies and nothing would exist in the Uranian orbit today except another ring of interplanetary rubble. On the other hand, an alien star the size of the Sun would have torn the entire Solar System to pieces by its massive gravitational field. Therefore, we can infer that the alien must have been about ten times the mass of Uranus, and probably traveling at a speed in the range of solar escape velocity.


Which sound plausible, but again I don't have the knowledge to accept or reject such a postulate. Neptune:

Quote:
Neptune has lost control of its satellites. The inner one revolves backward as a singular retrograde planetoid, while the outer satellite has the most eccentric orbit in the entire Solar System, not including the comets.


He's referring to Nereid, and its orbit is indeed very eccentric. Finally, Pluto:

Quote:
Because of its small size - and an orbit so eccentric that its radial differential is greater than the entire Solar System, inclusive of Neptune - it is generally accepted that Pluto must have been a satellite of Neptune that escaped into solar orbit. When professional astronomers admit this much and no more, they are as guilty of prevarication as ecologists who do not mention that oil is burned to charge the batteries of electric cars. You see, there is nothing at the outermost planetary orbit of the Solar System with sufficient energy to multiply the orbital velocity of Pluto by a factor of the square root of 2 in order that it can escape Neptune.

Unless you postulate an adventitious interplanetary collision course arriving from interstellar space! Every planet in the Solar System violates the physical requirements of the Nebular Hypothesis. An alien star is the obvious solution to a host of astronomical embarrassments. But it also blows a hole through the theory of planetary evolution. This is exactly what Immanuel Velikovsky did.


Pawlicki now segues into a scenario that purports to explain the alleged anomalies, it's very derivative of Velikovsky and is palpably pseudoscientific. Incidentally, he calls the planet which allegedly created the asteroids (when it was destroyed by the catastophe) Krypton, which got a laugh out of me. His explanation also contains the same acceptance of ancient mythology that's also found in Velikovsky. Now, none of that interests me. What does interest me is the theoretical framework he outlines to explain these events.

Quote:
The persecution of Velikovsky is most determined from astronomers because it destroys the steady-state theory necessary to make coherent sense out of current measurements. It is necessary to believe that all extant physical activity occurs everywhere at all times at the same rate in order to have a theoretical science and get paid for teaching it. Otherwise all you have is engineering and science fiction. The physical evidence on which Velikovsky has been prosecuted by the establishment is not proclaimed to the public; the excuse is that the public does not understand physics. The result is that Velikovsky was given no chance to defend himself in a manner that habeas corpus is supposed to provide, nor could he put judgment to a public jury.

Insofar as I have been able to get any answer from the enemies of Velikovsky, they base their case on one of Newton's laws conserving momentum.

[Side note: I don't think he buys that law because in Chapter 4 - which is the UFO chapter - he outlines a scheme of inertialess propulsion.]

A material body disturbed in its orbit must return to the point of disturbance on each subsequent revolution. The Solar System preserves far too much order today for any collision courses to have occurred in the past, much less the historical past. Most physicists, who are specialists, are satisfied that the law is inviolate. But Einstein opened a completely new and radical conception of Newton's laws.

The solution to Velikovsky's problem is implicated with the solution to another irritating problem bothering astronomers for over two hundred years, Bode's Law of Planetary Harmonics.....Bode found that if an Astronomical Unit is established as 9,000,000 miles, the following multiples of that Unit are measured between the planets: Sun 4 Mercury 3 Venus 3 Earth 6 Mars 12 Asteroids 24 Jupiter 48 Saturn 96 Uranus 96 Neptune 96 Pluto....when Neptune and Pluto were discovered to be separated by intervals of 96 Units each, the professional verdict decided that the Law had broken down; and respectable orthodoxy regards the Theory of Planetary Harmonics as an empirical accident with no significance whatsoever....In order to prove Bode's Law, you must understand relativity.


Now the method he uses to prove relativity is really... unusual:

Quote:
If you find a thin, vibrant disc, dust the surface with powder, and make it resonate to a musical tone, the powder will move into concentric windrows, spaced a wavelength apart. As the circles approach the center, radial vibrations break up the circular pattern. What you see is a model representing the mechanics of Bode's Law and the General Theory of Relativity.

[Side note: doing things like that to discs does have real scientific reference, in something called cymatics.]

What you see happening is produced by waves of sound traveling through the disc in all directions. As the waves move, they carry the dust with them. Where two waves meet in opposite directions, a wave pattern is created that does not travel. The pattern is called a standing wave....Those of you who study any one of several versions of this model will eventually notice that the rings representing planetary orbits around the Sun are spaced equal distances apart, whereas the planetary orbits have a difference between each orbit established by the factor of two. The reason the rings of powder on the disc are equally spaced is that the vibration is supplied by waves of equal length. The field of energy constituting the Solar System is defined by waves of all lengths, like white sound. When a full-frequency spectrum of sound is used to generate standing waves around a focal point the longer waves are superimposed through the shorter waves amplifying them in some places and canceling them out in others. The harmonic beats where all waves coincide to amplify and cancel in the same places form rings separated by octave intervals, just as we see in the Solar System.


Now, in Chapter 5, we revisit these kinds of wave/harmonic models, but with reference to particle physics. Pawlicki's "theory" tries to attempt to unify the micro- and macro- scales, which is what conventional physics is also trying to do. But he gives us this unfortunate sentence:

Quote:
Since Niels Bohr published the planetary model of the atom, the atom and the Solar System have been understood to be models of each other....All we have done is say that if the Solar System is a cosmic atom, and if the atom is a standing-wave structure, then the Solar System must be a stimding-wave structure too.


Except the Bohr model is long discredited, and elsewhere Pawlicki acknowledges it's discredited, but seems to be unaware that mainstream science agrees with him. From another work: "The Bohr model of the atom is obviously impossible simply because particulate electrons orbiting the atomic nucleus like planets at random will collide sooner or later; on the atomic scale, sooner is a microsecond, and later is a millisecond....It is flabbergasting that no child has pointed out that the Emperor is Naked. The Bohr atom is a flagrant example of mass hypnosis stultifying the professional classes."

Quote:
Well, if an atom is the essential unit of material, and if an atom is a standing-wave structure, then all material must be standing-wave structures. Therefore, if the solar system is a standing-wave structure, then the entire gravitational field of the Sun must be solid material....The wavelengths of gravity are so long that we can walk through them as if the standing waves were insubstantial, like we walk through air. Many people will snort that this deduction is preposterous; the more schooling you have, the more likely you will insist that it isn't so. But have you forgotten that material, by definition, is identical to mass? Einstein's General Theory of Relativity proves that the Sun's gravitational field possesses mass and functions as a massive structure. Einstein knew it all along; he just stopped talking at this point.


I smell pseudoscience.... and there's (possibly) more on the way, as he delves into what seems to be free energy ("...the Sun's gravitational field - filling all of interplanetary space - is solid energy, just like uranium, waiting to be mined. Now you can see why Einstein is supposed to be incomprehensible, and relativity is taught to make sure no one can understand it. And now you can see why Bode's Law cannot be allowed to be recognized. And now you can understand one reason why Velikovsky had to be given the deStalinization [sic] treatment. You see, the military-industrial-financial establishment can stake out a monopoly on uranium, enabling them to charge whatever OPEC demands for oil, but everyone has free access to the Sun's gravitational field.") and into Nicola Tesla and some conspiracy theory. Thankfully, he gets back on track:

Quote:
We see the powder bounce up and down on the vibrating disc until it settles at the static nodes of the standing waves. Obviously there is a tangible flow from the loops to the nodes. Therefore, any particle supported by the vibrating field will flow from the loops to the nodes like a chip on a stream of water. The loops can be represented as hills and the nodes as valleys for purposes of illustration, but we can see there are no real hills or valleys in a gravitationally defined space; there is only a flow of energy represented by velocity gradients. So any celestial body let loose in the solar gravitational field will `gravitate' toward the nodal orbits as if attracted by some mysterious force. You will recognize that this model is the very representation of Einstein's General Theory of Relativity.

[I'm not sure of that... though he makes that idea more plausible in Chapter 5...]

Now you know why a planet finds an orbit at a specific location in the solar gravitational field, but you may wonder why it revolves around the Sun in that orbit. If you examine the vibrating plate intently, you will eventually discern that the flow of energy does not stop at the nodes, but undergoes an abrupt right angle rotation of velocity with a transformation of wave frequency and speed. The flow now circles the orbital path, carrying the planet with it like a log on a stream of water between banks...more inspection eventually reveals that the entire nodal circle vibrates as a linear standing-wave structure, composed of all frequencies, like a circular violin string strummed by a breeze. The fundamental frequency of the orbital resonance is subdivided into harmonic intervals, defined by loops and nodes of different energy levels. Residual discords in the harmonics cause the pattern to revolve around the field center. Therefore, once a body is carried by the solar gravitational field to an orbital node, it will be carried farther in the orbit until it settles into the deepest node in the circuit. That is where it will stay as the entire gravitational field revolves.

If this model is true, then there must be a node of the second gravitational harmonic of the Earth's orbit directly opposite us, on the other side of the Sun where we can never see it. This calculation is the probable source of the myth of a counter-Earth. The myth, in fact, is true, [!] but its proof is another story for another book. As far as we are concerned here, astronomers have proven that the counter-Earth cannot possibly exist because there as no evidence of the gravitational effects its mass must produce. The reason the counter-Earth is not found where we see it is that the space in which it is calculated to exist happens to be where the fundamental loop also exists. The fundamental loop cancels the secondary node with enough energy left over to raise a sizable gravitational `hill.'

[Side note: the illustration describes this much more clearly]

But the fundamental loop flows in both directions around the orbit to the tertiary nodes, a pair of gravitational nodes located 120 degrees in both directions from us. Therefore we should expect to find smaller masses of interplanetary material caught in these two depressions. In fact, astronomers have observed aggregations of interplanetary debris collected at both these locations. When we see interplanetary bodies attracted to locations where no central masses exist to establish a gravitational field, we have the proof that gravity is inherent in the flow of energy through space rather than a mysterious force generated by a massive body.

We are forced to the further deduction that Jupiter does not possess the most powerful gravitational field in the Solar System because it possesses almost all of the mass, outside of the Sun. It is possible for Jupiter to have been created the most massive body in the Solar System because the greatest gravitational flow in the Sun's field is into that location. Jupiter's gravitational field would exist at that location even if Jupiter were not there to occupy the space.

[Surely, that's incorrect...]

Another proof for the model is derived from the empirical fact that all planets sweep an equal area of their orbital planes in equal times. Momentum is a time function, and the equation for momentum is identical to the equation for circular area. Therefore, the angular momentum of each orbit is identical throughout the solar gravitational field. The energy flow from the loops to the nodes is in direct proportion to the area of the orbits. The area of the orbits increases at a ratio equal to half the square of the radius. First sight tells you that the momentum of each orbit should increase by one half the square of the radius if all the energy, from the loop area flows into the nodal line. But the solar field is a compound standing-wave structure; the wavelength of the standing waves increases in direct ratio with the radius. The formula equating energy with wavelength states that momentum varies inversely with frequency, so that the difference in energy represented by area is exactly balanced by the difference in energy represented by wavelength. Therefore, the momentum of the solar field must be constant throughout.

A final proof is that escape velocity is the square root of 2 times orbital velocity. Because the increase in field wavelength is continuous along the gravitational radius, the loop between successive orbits is not exactly between them. The peak of the loop divides the inter orbital radius into fractions defined by the square root of 2, like the intensity of light falls off from a point source. An increase of orbital velocity by a factor of the square root of 2 gives a planet exactly the amount of momentum it needs to surmount the gravitational hill confining it to its orbital vally; and once over the divide, it is downhill all the way to the next star.

The planets occupy the deepest nodes in the solar gravitational field. But the solar space is filled with an infinite number of higher harmonic nodes, each of which is capable of attracting and holding a mass of material. But the higher the harmonic, the less energy flows into it, so the smaller the mass it can attract and retain....Residual discords in the solar geometry causes the gravitational hollows to wander along courses described by the Drunkard's Walk, calculated by the mathematics of Probability. The amount of indirection is directly proportional to the value of the harmonic fraction. This means that the major harmonics represented by the planetary orbits will manifest negligible perturbations during any historic period, while the locations of higher harmonic nodes wander around with increasing randomness. Harmonic coincidence of wandering nodes result in periodic intersections; and once again, the lower the harrmonic, the longer the period between intersections, while the higher harmonics are mixing together continuously. A small body caught in the shallow depression of a high node will be tipped out when confluence with a harmonic loop causes a temporary reversal of gravitational flow....Only the confluence of a low-harmonic loop with a low-harmonic node is sufficient to reverse the gravitational flow keeping a planet in its orbit. When that happens, planets, stars, and even galaxies are set on collision courses....Now we can prove why Venus maintains a near-circular orbit today even though it is possible for her to have arrived in our skies within human memory after a series of catastrophic interplanetary collisions. Celestial bodies of planetary mass gravitate quickly to low-harmonic nodes, and low-harmonic nodes are inherently stable in orbit. Lighter celestial bodies can be retained more or less indefinitely in a succession of higher harmonic nodes; the higher the harmonic, the more eccentric and unstable the orbit will be. This is why we find the planets to follow regular orbits of circular dimensions while the mot eccentric and unstable bodies in the Solar System are also the lightest and most vaporous - the comets.


I'm not sure of so many of the claims made in that section (such as "Momentum is a time function, and the equation for momentum is identical to the equation for circular area" and "escape velocity is the square root of 2 times orbital velocity") I'm not even going to bother to single them out. The essay rounds out by postulating, of all things, that white people came from Mars. (He uses pseudo-etymology in the argument, deriving "Aryan" from "Arean.") This contains nothing of note, except this:

Quote:
As soon as you began to play musical orbits with the planets, the distribution of angular momentum in the Solar System is disturbed. When Venus brought additional energy from interstellar space, it meant that the gravitational hollow at #3 Sunnydale Circle must have drifted away from the Sun, while the revolution of the Moon made further adjustments to maintain Conservation.

[So it DOES seem he buys conservation of momentum... but, like I said, he also DOESN'T!]

If the proposition of interplanetary collision is essentially valid, the Earth must have been closer to the sun during a previous geophysical era. Merely a few megamillion miles nearer would have added enough extra insolation to provide the Earth with an allover suntan from pole to pole. Geologists know that the Earth did have a tropical climate during the Paleozoic Age. Various hypotheses have been proposed to explain this anomaly, but they all require special cases involving a great deal of critical ignorance to remain tenable. Special cases do not a science make;

[To which I couldn't agree more, but one big catastrophe to explain all the anomalies in one go? Give me those special cases any day, then.]

the theory of interplanetary collision eliminates all the obvious anomalies with a single, simple, and provable mechanism.


I've tried to cut as much as I could from this PM. (In fact, I wanted it to be about Chapter 5, but then it would be WAY too long) What I want to know is, is this guy actually potentially on to something with this gravitation waves and harmonics and nodes and other stuff? Or is it all just as much bullshit as the Velikovskian scenario he's trying to push, as well as the people from Mars s**t? I'm reminded somwhat of the Cartesian vortex theory, which Newton junked when he proved that the vortices couldn't give rise to elliptical motion, but I just don't have the physics schooling to know this kind of s**t. I'm sorry this had to be so long, but if you could help me out it would be greatly appreciated.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:18 pm


Well, some things that immediately struck me.

Quote:
Volume is diameter cubed, and momentum is one half of velocity squared.

V = 4/3πr³ not V=8r³
p=mv not p=1/2v²

Quote:
Therefore, the Sun has a thousand times the volume of Jupiter, but Jupiter has five times the angular momentum. Jupiter is also a fairly dense planet, containing more mass than all the rest of the Solar System combined, outside of the Sun. Therefore, even after we make allowances for difference of radius, quick and dirty calculation indicates that Jupiter has about as much angular momentum as all the rest of the Solar System put together, including the Sun.


Some unrelated things here strung together.
Jupiter is dense, containing more mass - It contains more mass because it's much larger than any of the other planets, not because it's denser, but because it's so much larger. And of course, Jupiter is extremely undense what with being a gas giant. Saturn is less dense, Neptune and Uranus are probably about the same, and all the rest of the planets would be denser.

Quote:
Dust clouds whirling in space are almost certain to be as homogeneous as any other gaseous mixture, so why is the chemistry of Venus grossly different from all the other inner planets?

Dunno, why does Mercury have no atmosphere at all? Why does mars have no liquid water?

Quote:
Random junk about sound waves in a disc showing relativity
Uh, what?

Quote:
Well, if an atom is the essential unit of material, and if an atom is a standing-wave structure, then all material must be standing-wave structures. Therefore, if the solar system is a standing-wave structure, then the entire gravitational field of the Sun must be solid material....The wavelengths of gravity are so long that we can walk through them as if the standing waves were insubstantial, like we walk through air. Many people will snort that this deduction is preposterous; the more schooling you have, the more likely you will insist that it isn't so. But have you forgotten that material, by definition, is identical to mass? Einstein's General Theory of Relativity proves that the Sun's gravitational field possesses mass and functions as a massive structure. Einstein knew it all along; he just stopped talking at this point.

Atoms are divisible though. An atom is made up of electrons, neutrons and protons. protons and neutrons are made up of quarks. If string theory is to be believed they're all made up of little strings.

Also, what he says is basically. If the sky is red, and red is a colour, than anything coloured must be a sky.
It starts off with some false assumptions, then progresses through some fallacies, to end up with rubbish.

Quote:
We are forced to the further deduction that Jupiter does not possess the most powerful gravitational field in the Solar System because it possesses almost all of the mass, outside of the Sun. It is possible for Jupiter to have been created the most massive body in the Solar System because the greatest gravitational flow in the Sun's field is into that location. Jupiter's gravitational field would exist at that location even if Jupiter were not there to occupy the space.

[Surely, that's incorrect...]


Wait. So because it has most of the mass, it can't have the strongest gravitational field?
But besides, the sun has a stronger field anyway.

Quote:
defined by the square root of 2, like the intensity of light falls off from a point source.

Wheres the √2 in 1/x²?

There's a bunch more rubbish in there that I can't be bothered going through.

My opinion? Mostly rubbish.

Dave the lost


Cynthia_Rosenweiss

PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:12 am


Dave the lost
My opinion? Mostly rubbish.


Yeah, but what isn't rubbish in there?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:32 am


I like the part where he says "the more schooling you have the more you will insist this isn't true".... SO.... he is depending on people to be uneducated? I find it rather interesting that people write these things, actually.

nonameladyofsins


nonameladyofsins

PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:34 am


Quote:

Pawlicki begins by stating:

Quote:
Every planet in the Solar System exhibits some anomaly that proves the Nebular Hypothesis could not possibly have happened the way we are told in school



and he then begins to outline the anomalies:


Quote:
Jupiter has one tenth the diameter of the Sun, but it rotates a hundred times faster. Volume is diameter cubed, and momentum is one half of velocity squared.


he's got one of his equations wrong off the bat, momentum is not one half of velocity squared, momentum is mass times velocity. I wouldn't know off the top of myhead whether or not Jupiter rotates a hundred times faster, however this shouldn't be surprising because of the conservation of angular momentu. Angular momentum is basically rotational momentum. You can see this principle in a skater, whenever they do a spin they bring their arms in so as to increase their rotational speed. If two objects have the same amount of angular momentum then smaller objects will rotate faster.


Quote:

[I have no idea if that's true or not]

Therefore, the Sun has a thousand times the volume of Jupiter, but Jupiter has five times the angular momentum. Jupiter is also a fairly dense planet, containing more mass than all the rest of the Solar System combined, outside of the Sun. Therefore, even after we make allowances for difference of radius, quick and dirty calculation indicates that Jupiter has about as much angular momentum as all the rest of the Solar System put together, including the Sun.


OK, so angular momentum has to be conserved in the solar system, as shown experimentally. The equation for angular momentum is L = mvr^2 where m is the objects mass, and v is the tangental velocity to the surface of the planet, and r is the radius of the planet. I shall present you with an idea. If momentum is conserved then the system has a net zero total of angular momentu, so all the momenta of each planet have to cancel out. So the conservation law can be represented by an equation as such:

M + V + E + Ma + Ju + Sa + N + U + P + Su = 0

each varible denoting the angular momentum of a planet in our solar system, this is a classic equation representing a conservation Law. As you can see, you can bring ANY of those variables to the right hand side and show that their angular momentum is equal to the sum of the angular momentum of the other planets. (whether or not the angular momentumis negative or positive is entierly dependent on your choice of coordinates and the direction of the rotation of the planet, as in clockwise or counterclockwise) So not only is Jupiter's angular momentum equal to the angular momentum of all the planets put together, but so is every other planet equal to the angular momentum of all the OTHER planets put together. Therefore his observation is nothing unusual, but from the way he states it, he is misleading the reader and purposefully omitting valuable information.

Quote:

But that should not be!


No actually, that should be.

Quote:

You see, if all the rotational energy in the Solar System is generated by gravitational collapse, then almost all the momentum in the Solar System must be concentrated in the Sun.


Yes, and it is, we can manipulate our equation to show us that. There is no contradiction between the ideas that Jupiter is equal to the net sum of the angular momentum, as well as the sun.

Quote:

While not altogether impossible, it is exceedingly unlikely for any planetary material to be flung away from a condensing core without losing the rotational momentum it acquired by condensing in the first place.


Actually, it CANNOT loose rotational momentum becasuse of the LAW OF CONSERVATION OF ANGULAR MOMENTUM. The whole point of that is, that momentum is conserved. If objects "lost" angulmar momentum then we wouldn't be living in the same universe. He also shouldn't be basing his argument on the unlikeliness of an event. That's exactly how creationists base their arguments. THey say that it is extremely unlikely that intelligent life was born from primordial soup, hence ther must be a god. I'd be extremely supsicious of people who have nothing to go on but the unlikeliness of an event.

Quote:

Now it seems if he has a point here. I don't know if he does, but it seems plausible. Now he goes on to Venus, and after remarking on the well-known backwards rotation


I'm so sorry, but he's showing not have an ounce of point so far.

Quote:
Dust clouds whirling in space are almost certain to be as homogeneous as any other gaseous mixture, so why is the chemistry of Venus grossly different from all the other inner planets?


The chemistry of Earth is also, as Dave the Lost pointed out, grossly different from all the other planets in the solar system. It's actually the most unusual in the entier solar system (in that it bears life), so why does he speak of Venus as if it's the most unusual thing."Grossly different" is also a very vague term. He's not giving you specifics he's just hand waving. I wouldn't listen to it.

Quote:

And why did Venus just happen to lock into a three-two orbital-rotational ratio with the Earth without inducing corresponding changes in the angular momentum of our planet? We are, after all, more alike in size and mass than any other bodies in the system, so any gravitational friction between us should he settled by mutual compromise; instead, Venus gave in to us entirely.


I don't know what the value is, and I don't know what the argument is, you'd have to do this investigation yourself. How come he doesn't use footnotes or references to astronomical data? Or not even that, at least a place that hosts the data, it would validate his arguments more if he were to show some general research. Also just the mere fact that he got all the equations wrong.....

Quote:

He puts in another way in something else I found somewhere on the web: "If the Earth can lock Venus by tide, can Jupiter, a thousand times larger, have no effect on the rest of the planets --- even on the Sun? Considering that Venus and Earth have almost the same mass, there is no reason why our day is not tuned by Venus to the same degree that the Venusian day is tuned to our year." This also mades sense, though I suspect there's a good reason that's not a fringe one to explain it, but I have no idea what it is.


I could speculate it might have something to do with the distance of the planets from Earth, though I can't assert this. Jupiter is much, much farther away from Earth than Venus, remember Venus is of the closest planets. You could argue, 'oh but Jupiter and the Sun are much more massive' and if you want to be conclusive about this, I would suggest getting some numbers. But if you want to look at data that is present for everyone, just look at the moon. The majority of the sea's tides are dependent on the orbit of the moon about the Earth, yet the mass of the moon is a trifle compared to the mass of any other planet/sun. Since the effect of the moon is so large on the ides of the Earth one could argue that distance may have some important role to play.

Quote:

I'll skip over the discussion of the Moon except to remark that he says "If the Moon was flung from the Earth, she had to take most of our angular momentum with her;


I don't see why this has to be true. Don't accept axioms without an idea of where they come from.

Quote:

our original day must have been as short as Saturn’s, and where did a Minor Planet acquire so much angular momentum?" (from the seperate source I just mentioned) Now, Mars:


By implying that the days on Saturn are shorter than the days of Earth he is implying that Saturn spins faster than Earth. So if
Me < Ms (that is the mass of the earth is smaller than the mass of saturn) and
Ve < Vs (the velocity of earth is smaller than the velocity of saturn) and
Re < Rs (Saturn is bigger than earth) then surely you can agree that

MeVeRe^2 < MsVsRs^2

and if Le = MeVeRe^2 is the angular momentum of the Earth, and
Ls = MsVsRs^2 is the angular momentum of Saturn, then we can clearly see that

Le < Ls

So no, the angular momentum of Earth is not larger than that of saturn's.

That's as far as I'm gonna go azulmagia-san, it took me long enough to make the analysis thus far. I'm serious, stop reading, it's not good for you.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:00 am


Cynthia_Rosenweiss
Dave the lost
My opinion? Mostly rubbish.


Yeah, but what isn't rubbish in there?


I'm fairly sure that Jupiter's volume would be around 1/1000 that of the sun, so that's not rubbish. Jupiter having a 5 times the angular momentum is possible, and that's about it.

Dave the lost


Cynthia_Rosenweiss

PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:17 pm


What about this bit?:

Quote:
We see the powder bounce up and down on the vibrating disc until it settles at the static nodes of the standing waves. Obviously there is a tangible flow from the loops to the nodes. Therefore, any particle supported by the vibrating field will flow from the loops to the nodes like a chip on a stream of water. The loops can be represented as hills and the nodes as valleys for purposes of illustration, but we can see there are no real hills or valleys in a gravitationally defined space; there is only a flow of energy represented by velocity gradients. So any celestial body let loose in the solar gravitational field will `gravitate' toward the nodal orbits as if attracted by some mysterious force. You will recognize that this model is the very representation of Einstein's General Theory of Relativity.

Now you know why a planet finds an orbit at a specific location in the solar gravitational field, but you may wonder why it revolves around the Sun in that orbit. If you examine the vibrating plate intently, you will eventually discern that the flow of energy does not stop at the nodes, but undergoes an abrupt right angle rotation of velocity with a transformation of wave frequency and speed. The flow now circles the orbital path, carrying the planet with it like a log on a stream of water between banks...more inspection eventually reveals that the entire nodal circle vibrates as a linear standing-wave structure, composed of all frequencies, like a circular violin string strummed by a breeze. The fundamental frequency of the orbital resonance is subdivided into harmonic intervals, defined by loops and nodes of different energy levels. Residual discords in the harmonics cause the pattern to revolve around the field center. Therefore, once a body is carried by the solar gravitational field to an orbital node, it will be carried farther in the orbit until it settles into the deepest node in the circuit. That is where it will stay as the entire gravitational field revolves.

If this model is true, then there must be a node of the second gravitational harmonic of the Earth's orbit directly opposite us, on the other side of the Sun where we can never see it. This calculation is the probable source of the myth of a counter-Earth. The myth, in fact, is true, [!] but its proof is another story for another book. As far as we are concerned here, astronomers have proven that the counter-Earth cannot possibly exist because there as no evidence of the gravitational effects its mass must produce. The reason the counter-Earth is not found where we see it is that the space in which it is calculated to exist happens to be where the fundamental loop also exists. The fundamental loop cancels the secondary node with enough energy left over to raise a sizable gravitational `hill.'

But the fundamental loop flows in both directions around the orbit to the tertiary nodes, a pair of gravitational nodes located 120 degrees in both directions from us. Therefore we should expect to find smaller masses of interplanetary material caught in these two depressions. In fact, astronomers have observed aggregations of interplanetary debris collected at both these locations. When we see interplanetary bodies attracted to locations where no central masses exist to establish a gravitational field, we have the proof that gravity is inherent in the flow of energy through space rather than a mysterious force generated by a massive body.

...

Another proof for the model is derived from the empirical fact that all planets sweep an equal area of their orbital planes in equal times. Momentum is a time function, and the equation for momentum is identical to the equation for circular area. Therefore, the angular momentum of each orbit is identical throughout the solar gravitational field. The energy flow from the loops to the nodes is in direct proportion to the area of the orbits. The area of the orbits increases at a ratio equal to half the square of the radius. First sight tells you that the momentum of each orbit should increase by one half the square of the radius if all the energy, from the loop area flows into the nodal line. But the solar field is a compound standing-wave structure; the wavelength of the standing waves increases in direct ratio with the radius. The formula equating energy with wavelength states that momentum varies inversely with frequency, so that the difference in energy represented by area is exactly balanced by the difference in energy represented by wavelength. Therefore, the momentum of the solar field must be constant throughout.

A final proof is that escape velocity is the square root of 2 times orbital velocity. Because the increase in field wavelength is continuous along the gravitational radius, the loop between successive orbits is not exactly between them. The peak of the loop divides the inter orbital radius into fractions defined by the square root of 2, like the intensity of light falls off from a point source. An increase of orbital velocity by a factor of the square root of 2 gives a planet exactly the amount of momentum it needs to surmount the gravitational hill confining it to its orbital vally; and once over the divide, it is downhill all the way to the next star.

The planets occupy the deepest nodes in the solar gravitational field. But the solar space is filled with an infinite number of higher harmonic nodes, each of which is capable of attracting and holding a mass of material. But the higher the harmonic, the less energy flows into it, so the smaller the mass it can attract and retain....Residual discords in the solar geometry causes the gravitational hollows to wander along courses described by the Drunkard's Walk, calculated by the mathematics of Probability. The amount of indirection is directly proportional to the value of the harmonic fraction. This means that the major harmonics represented by the planetary orbits will manifest negligible perturbations during any historic period, while the locations of higher harmonic nodes wander around with increasing randomness. Harmonic coincidence of wandering nodes result in periodic intersections; and once again, the lower the harrmonic, the longer the period between intersections, while the higher harmonics are mixing together continuously. A small body caught in the shallow depression of a high node will be tipped out when confluence with a harmonic loop causes a temporary reversal of gravitational flow....Only the confluence of a low-harmonic loop with a low-harmonic node is sufficient to reverse the gravitational flow keeping a planet in its orbit. When that happens, planets, stars, and even galaxies are set on collision courses....Now we can prove why Venus maintains a near-circular orbit today even though it is possible for her to have arrived in our skies within human memory after a series of catastrophic interplanetary collisions. Celestial bodies of planetary mass gravitate quickly to low-harmonic nodes, and low-harmonic nodes are inherently stable in orbit. Lighter celestial bodies can be retained more or less indefinitely in a succession of higher harmonic nodes; the higher the harmonic, the more eccentric and unstable the orbit will be. This is why we find the planets to follow regular orbits of circular dimensions while the mot eccentric and unstable bodies in the Solar System are also the lightest and most vaporous - the comets.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:20 pm


Quote:
Momentum is a time function, and the equation for momentum is identical to the equation for circular area.

p=mv
A=&r²

Don't look very similar to me.

Quote:
The formula equating energy with wavelength states that momentum varies inversely with frequency, so that the difference in energy represented by area is exactly balanced by the difference in energy represented by wavelength.


Formula equating energy with wavelength...
E=hf springs readily to mind, but that's not inverse

Quote:
This calculation is the probable source of the myth of a counter-Earth. The myth, in fact, is true, [!] but its proof is another story for another book

Aww, but we like proofs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-Earth#Scientific_analysis

I don't really know enough about GTR to want to state whether or not the overall idea makes any sense, but from examples like the above I would be inclined to dismiss this more or less out of hand.

Dave the lost

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