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 Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 4:37 pm
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I'm thinking this is the right area for this thread, as I'm hoping for some sort of discussion, although it seems to have equal reason to be in the 'Advice' board instead.
This friend of mine thinks the Bible flatout says homosexuality is wrong, and that a guy having a relationship with another guy instead of a woman is sinful. I'd asked her to read http://www.gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?page=1&t=1549417#37502859 and she did.
a friend, On 10/1/06 I will continue to pray for you because at this point I simply don't know what to do. I've e-mailed my pastor for advice (no names, of course), and I may ask my dad tomorrow; both are godly men and both will understand (in more ways than you could imagine; they've dealt with this before). I'm having trouble doing this on my own anymore; I think it's time to let God take the reigns. I care about you, and this is why this is so saddening. But I'll pray, and we'll see what happens.
I suppose at this point that's all one can do. If it's Satan, then Satan seems to be attacking me now more than ever before. I've been struggling with "bisexuality temptations", I guess we'll call the attraction, since 10th and 11th grade. Let me see, Fall 2005 Freshman, Fall 2004 Senior, Fall 2003 Junior, yeah, I've been having thoughts like these since like 2002. And I've been suppressing them and pushing them back for four years, or outright refuting them, telling myself it's Satan, blah blah.
Maybe when I get a girlfriend the attraction I see in other men will dissipate and vanish; I don't know. That's a bad line of thinking, anyway, because a girlfriend shouldn't be a means to an end. And what is a girlfriend except a very close female friend? I don't imagine that having a very close female friend, even one officially titled a 'girlfriend', would stop my thinking of certain guys as funny, cute, smart, etc. And that by itself can't be bad, appreciating a guy's appearance and personality. And if that's not bad, why is wanting to have a relationship with him?
(Going back to what that guy says, the Bible explains why man and woman become on flesh, but it doesn't say that's the only way it can or could be. I'll go so far as to say God designed woman for man and vice versa, but would he really be offended if we chose the other -- even without sex? The Catholic Church has accepted that some men are born with incurable disorders, or if not "disorders" then "constant temptation from Satan" -- stealing, lying, homosexuality -- and says it's okay to face those temptations as long as you don't act on them, i.e., as long as you don't steal, lie, or have gay sex.)
And yet this truth seems to remain, that I think about women sexually, but men I don't. But then the next thing is, must there be sex in a relationship? And if I don't currently desire sex from both, am I still bisexual? I mean, I feel the definition of it is finding both genders *sexually* desireable. But that goes into psychological affairs, namely, where does attraction come from? Is it ultimately, primally sexual, and everything else lies on top of that? as some would say. Or, as this gay guy I was talking with last night said, "Sex is just a tasty treat. It's nice to have, but it's not necessary for a relationship."
And then he (naturally, being gay and slightly encouraging on the matter) raised other questions, like, stimulation of the male prostrate gland compared to stimulation of the female G-spot, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostate#Stimulation and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostate_massage. So God gave men the option to feel orgasms similar to women, massaging an area in a manner similar to women. The Bible never specifically says this is wrong! It's maddening how ambiguous the Bible is.
The sad thing is I can talk with you about this, but I can't talk with my own parents about it. My brother believes I have "f** tendencies," my father's wondering when I'm going to get a girlfriend, and "can you not talk like that? You talk kind of like you're a homo," etc ...
It also bugs me that I'm struggling like this. I never imagined I'd be writing things like this or thinking things like this. In high school I came up with a theory of "God's against lust, not love," and then the unanswered question for me then was, can homosexual sex exist like heterosexual sex? Meaning, if heterosexual, vaginal intercourse is from love, and is pure, is it possible for two homosexuals to "make love" in an equally pure way with a**l intercourse? Having no experience in the matter, this was a question I couldn't and still can't answer.
But in the long run, why does it matter if people "stick it in the wrong place?" Why is that such a big deal with God?
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Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 4:51 pm
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Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 5:06 pm
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SinfulGuillotine I take it you're male? (You have a female avi, hence my slight confusion.)
SinfulGuillotine Actually, there's a debate on this that's a sticky in this forum.
SinfulGuillotine And I can empathise. Except that I have no sexual desires for women at all. I'm just a flaming homo.
SinfulGuillotine I'm happy to give my personal reason for holding the beliefs regarding homosexuality not being a sin, but I'm just iffy about posting it in a public forum. |
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Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 5:46 pm
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Aetherius Lamia Yeah. I have another account here, with a male avatar; I just prefer the female avatars. They look nicer.
Quote: Yeah, and I've already read a bit of it, and I think I read Anamel's post originally, before there was a subforum for Debate and Discussion. I used to come here a while ago, jeez, I guess it's been a year, maybe a year and a half, since I've been here. I'm not really sure how much time I have to spend pondering and thinking about it in depth, I'm so busy with school and work.
Quote: Yeah, and that, honestly, I don't get. I was talking with this gay guy, and he finds the thought of vaginal sex completely repulsive. ... which I can't begin to understand.
It's not that I don't find women beautiful - I do. I think Angelina Jolie and Eva Green, for example, are freakin' gorgeous. But I find them beautiful sort of the same way I find a painting or flower beautiful. Nice to look at, but I have zero desire to have sex with it.
Quote: Really? Why? I guess I'll PM or IM you, then. ...
It's one thing if people go after me for a certain moral or political belief I hold, but it stings a little more when people get on my case about person stuff, y'know? |
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Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:18 pm
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Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:50 pm
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Bahaha, I love your sig. 3nodding That's one thing I always wonder when I see women screaming, "My body, MY CHOICE!" It took two to create that baby, lady. What about his choice?
Well, that's the thing. Does God hate gay sex? I have two friends that no longer wish to be my friends because I told them I supported gay civil unions in the USA. They feel that strongly that I have "sin in my heart," and that "I need to get right with God."
But why would God care if some of us have a ******** disorder? (Haha, get the pun? I'm so funny. rolleyes ) I mean, in the scheme of things it seems rather insignificant if a guy sticks his wang in a poop tube. He can save lives, convert people to Christianity, do all these good deeds, but if he gets his p***s dirty by choice, you cannot be friends with him?
It just seems to me that God created man and woman and gave us a choice. I don't see why He'd be offended if we didn't go with His suggestion.
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Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:03 pm
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Aetherius Lamia Bahaha, I love your sig. 3nodding That's one thing I always wonder when I see women screaming, "My body, MY CHOICE!" It took two to create that baby, lady. What about his choice? Well, that's the thing. Does God hate gay sex? I have two friends that no longer wish to be my friends because I told them I supported gay civil unions in the USA. They feel that strongly that I have "sin in my heart," and that "I need to get right with God." But why would God care if some of us have a ******** disorder? (Haha, get the pun? I'm so funny. rolleyes ) I mean, in the scheme of things it seems rather insignificant if a guy sticks his wang in a poop tube. He can save lives, convert people to Christianity, do all these good deeds, but if he gets his p***s dirty by choice, you cannot be friends with him? It just seems to me that God created man and woman and gave us a choice. I don't see why He'd be offended if we didn't go with His suggestion.
What actions you take as a result of your sexuality are, of course, a choice. But the actual attraction is not. |
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Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:59 pm
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SinfulGuillotine I disagree with the implication that sexuality is a choice. What actions you take as a result of your sexuality are, of course, a choice. But the actual attraction is not.
My personal belief, like those of the aforementioned friends, is that Satan is out to confuse and distract, and that homosexual thoughts and urges are of his influence. At least, that's my hypothesis. So, when I think about what's in a guy's pants, that's Satan. As for thinking a guy is cute, funny, etc, and wanting merely to be in a relationship with him? That I cannot account for, but according to my two 'friends' that is also of Satan ...
The weird thing is when you meet people that are flaming, like, "vaginas are nasty," and you honestly wonder, "How could this person ever be straight?" And my only response for that would be like people who are born with the inclination to be ***** or thieves or compulsive liars; they have their crutch they must overcome ...
I honestly don't know, and whenever I get to that particular point, I get tired of thinking. I wonder why life must be so complicated, and why there isn't a clear answer easily in front of us. (And at this point, these two friends tell me they've told me the clear answer a hundred times already, and the point to Judges, or some such passage where the Bible ambiguously speaks of rape, and they interpret it to be "see? They were wicked because they were gay," blah blah blah. mad ) |
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Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:21 pm
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Aetherius Lamia I actually think the Catholic Church agrees with you. I think the Church's stance is that homosexuals aren't sinners if they remain celibate, and that homosexual sex is sodomy, and thus a sin. Homosexuals can become priests, even, since priests are also to remain celibate.
Quote: My personal belief, like those of the aforementioned friends, is that Satan is out to confuse and distract, and that homosexual thoughts and urges are of his influence. At least, that's my hypothesis. So, when I think about what's in a guy's pants, that's Satan. As for thinking a guy is cute, funny, etc, and wanting merely to be in a relationship with him? That I cannot account for, but according to my two 'friends' that is also of Satan ...
Serious issues.
Everyone has to deal with lust, regardless of sexuality. Homosexual lust is no more Satan-inspired than heterosexual lust.
But love between two people of the same gender is something completely different. If God is love, and it is because of God that we have the ability to love, how can love be inspired by Satan?
Quote: The weird thing is when you meet people that are flaming, like, "vaginas are nasty," and you honestly wonder, "How could this person ever be straight?" And my only response for that would be like people who are born with the inclination to be ***** or thieves or compulsive liars; they have their crutch they must overcome ...
In something like *****, if a person acts on their desires, a child is going to suffer because of it. Because children are emotionally different from adults, or even teenagers, they cannot consent to sex the same way an adult can. They are not physically or psychologically "ready," so sex harms them both physically and emotionally.
Compulsive lying can also hurt other people. If someone is constantly giving false information, there can be serious consequences. Not to mention that the liar themself may lose a normal grasp on reality if they never (or infrequently) tell the truth.
You see how both are different from someone engaging in a loving, consentual, adult relationship with another human being?
Quote: I honestly don't know, and whenever I get to that particular point, I get tired of thinking. I wonder why life must be so complicated, and why there isn't a clear answer easily in front of us. (And at this point, these two friends tell me they've told me the clear answer a hundred times already, and the point to Judges, or some such passage where the Bible ambiguously speaks of rape, and they interpret it to be "see? They were wicked because they were gay," blah blah blah. mad )
Even more frustrating when people get unreasonabe about it.
My current stance on Christianity and homosexuality is that I really don't know. However, I really do feel in my heart of hearts that God would rather me be with someone I love than be alone, as stupid as I know that sounds. I've come to that conclusion for a variety of reasons, most of which I can't even begin to articulate....so yeah. Doesn't really hold up very well in a debate. |
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Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 9:45 pm
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SinfulGuillotine Everyone has to deal with lust, regardless of sexuality. Homosexual lust is no more Satan-inspired than heterosexual lust.
SinfulGuillotine But love between two people of the same gender is something completely different. If God is love, and it is because of God that we have the ability to love, how can love be inspired by Satan?
SinfulGuillotine Quote: The weird thing is when you meet people that are flaming, like, "vaginas are nasty," and you honestly wonder, "How could this person ever be straight?" And my only response for that would be like people who are born with the inclination ... they have their crutch they must overcome ... But is it a "crutch" to overcome?
SinfulGuillotine Even more frustrating when people get unreasonabe about it. |
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Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:52 am
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Aetherius Lamia That's exactly what I thought, back when I tried to deal with this in high school (wow, has it really been two-and-a-half years already?)
Quote: And that's the unanswered question I had throughout the rest of high school; can homosexual relationships exist in the same manner heterosexual ones do? They appear to, but do they really? And I can't exactly live two lives to find out.
And the fact is, every relationship, regardless of sexuality and the genders involved is going to be extremely different. There really isn't an "ideal homosexual relationship" and an "ideal heterosexual relationship." What works for one couple isn't go to work for another couple, so asking if one can exist like the other is a rather impossible question to answer, even on a pretty basic level.
Can heterosexuals be loving and faithful to one person throughout their lives? Yes. It's happened. Can heterosexuals be abusive and unfaithful throughout their lives? Yes. That's happened too. Can homosexuals be loving and faithful to one person throughout their lives? Yes. It's happened. Can homosexuals be abusive and unfaithful throughout their lives? Yes. That's happened too.
People and their relationships with other people are all so drastically different from one another that it's pretty much impossible to have any sort of accurate side-by-side comparison of homosexual vs. heterosexual relationships.
Quote: I believe it is; it seems to be an unnatural fear, like a fear of elevators or chairs or pants or something. I can't see why someone would be "turned off" by breasts or vaginas, but I can see why someone would be turned off by anuses, when thinking of the poop that travels through that same tube that you'd be sticking it in ...
It's not that I can't get off on vaginal sex. It's that I'm not physically, sexually, or emotionally attracted to the person I'm having sex with if they have a v****a.
And that brings up another issue: It's not just about sex/sexual attraction. It's also about emotional attraction. I'm not emotionally (romantically) attracted to women. I'm friends with women, but even setting aside the physical and sexual aspect, I have no desire to be romantically involved with any woman that I've met. There's just no "chemistry," if you will. If that makes sense.
Quote: Oh, I couldn't agree with you more. I can't understand how some people close their minds and believe something without even being able to completely state why they believe it. (To clarify: I'm not talking about opposition in general, I'm referring specifically to those who believe something without completely understanding why.) It's like brainwashing, except willful, and willful ignorance is anathema to me. I live my life through knowledge, through exploration and understanding. To not understand something is to suffer.
If someone holds a different belief from me (on any matter), I can respect it as long as they can actually back up their opinion with some degree of logic beyond "this is what mummy and daddy told me."
Ugh.
So ridiculously frustrating. |
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Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:37 pm
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Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:11 am
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Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 10:33 am
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SinfulGuillotine jamesthelittle Just because the Catholic church says it is OK doesn't make it right! Even the Pope gets things wrong. I don't have time to address the rest of what you've said at the moment because I have class soon, but I feel the need to make a minor correction with what you stated there. The Catholic Church doesn't condone homosexuality. However, the Church acknowledges that homosexual attractions are not a choice and cannot be changed. The Church merely condemns homosexual acts, not the attractions to members of the same sex themselves. Also, the Catechism is very clear that homosexuals are not to be socially or religiously discriminated against, and that it's possible (and encouraged) for people with homosexual attractions to be good Catholics. Those two specifics are often interpreted by non-Catholics to mean that the Catholic Church has its own float in gay pride parades, but that's not the case.
I understand what you mean. But, it isn't the church's job to decide if something is a choice or a disease. What the Catholic Church has done is taken the side of pro-Gay and Lesbian groups who have pushed the agenda even in the Psychology realm and made homosexuality no longer a disease or disorder, but some natural mutation in some humans. It gives people the idea that it is okay. The perception of it being okay is there. That is wrong. |
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Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:26 pm
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jamesthelittle SinfulGuillotine jamesthelittle Just because the Catholic church says it is OK doesn't make it right! Even the Pope gets things wrong. I don't have time to address the rest of what you've said at the moment because I have class soon, but I feel the need to make a minor correction with what you stated there. The Catholic Church doesn't condone homosexuality. However, the Church acknowledges that homosexual attractions are not a choice and cannot be changed. The Church merely condemns homosexual acts, not the attractions to members of the same sex themselves. Also, the Catechism is very clear that homosexuals are not to be socially or religiously discriminated against, and that it's possible (and encouraged) for people with homosexual attractions to be good Catholics. Those two specifics are often interpreted by non-Catholics to mean that the Catholic Church has its own float in gay pride parades, but that's not the case. I understand what you mean. But, it isn't the church's job to decide if something is a choice or a disease. What the Catholic Church has done is taken the side of pro-Gay and Lesbian groups who have pushed the agenda even in the Psychology realm and made homosexuality no longer a disease or disorder, but some natural mutation in some humans. It gives people the idea that it is okay. The perception of it being okay is there. That is wrong.
And no, it's not the Church's job to make decisions about the nature of human psychology. That's the job of psychologists. And...I have no idea what you're saying about the psychological community being pushed to revise their decisions on homosexualiy. More studies have been done in recent years, and those studies have yielded different conclusions than the previous ones, so the textbooks were edited. It's just like any other form os science. Unless you actually are a psychologist, you don't really have the knowledge or authority to say that these studies and the decisions that were reached because of them aren't valid.
And what is the "gay agenda"? Because people always bring that up, and honestly, I'm clueless. I hope it's something cool like world domination. |
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