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 Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 10:58 am
[ Message temporarily off-line ]
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Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 11:00 am
Now I'm not in America, so I'm speaking as a Brit.
If my doctor did not aid women in getting abortions I would transfer, and advise all my friends to do so. It is not a doctors choice I'm afraid, it is the woman's. The choice is for the woman. You cannot say "We are pro-choice, pro-the-anti-abortionists-choice." That's not the way choice works. A doctor cannot refuse to give a person medication on personal belief issues, they should not be allowed to refuse to aid an abortion on personal belief issues, whether those are racist, sexist or religious beliefs.
[edit] Very nice avi by the way...
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Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 1:14 pm
Shard Aerliss Now I'm not in America, so I'm speaking as a Brit. If my doctor did not aid women in getting abortions I would transfer, and advise all my friends to do so. It is not a doctors choice I'm afraid, it is the woman's. The choice is for the woman. You cannot say "We are pro-choice, pro-the-anti-abortionists-choice." That's not the way choice works. A doctor cannot refuse to give a person medication on personal belief issues, they should not be allowed to refuse to aid an abortion on personal belief issues, whether those are racist, sexist or religious beliefs. [edit] Very nice avi by the way...
The problem with abortion is that it is a very personal topic. It's not medication that a woman needs most of the time, and most of the time it won't kill her if she doesn't have it. So it's not something you can group in with say, cancer treatment.
A doctor takes an oath to not harm anyone (I believe that's the gist of it) and if they feel it's harming someone, whether you do or not, is it not wrong of the pro-'choice' idea to not support someone's choice?
"An abortion should be between and woman and her doctor." Is that not something I've heard countless times?
(And thank you I had a hard time with the blues. I used to be such an AT geek whee )
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Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 9:40 pm
If the doctor was anti-choice and would not even assist me in finding another doctor who could help me, i would definately find another doctor. If my Doctor refuse to perform an abortion, but recommended me to another physician, I would respect their beliefs and values. But I goto a women's clinicand have an extremely liberal doctor who has already discussed abortion with me, and I know she would have no trouble recommending another doctor for me to see.(I don't believe she have the tools to perform abortions in her office.)
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2005 6:06 pm
I do not have a doctor. I've never needed one. I don't go to regular check ups, and I barely even take medication when I have a cold. However, if I find that my doctor, the one my insurance company pays, does NOT approve of abortions and thus will not provide them, I'll do everything possible to get my insurance company to switch to someone who does. Why? Because I want someone who can cover all my emergencies, inculding pregnancy. I don't want to suddenly find out my doctor is prolife when I've been knocked up.
It's the same reason most people prefer the same sex doctor. Well, not completely the same, but we're discriminating against someone for them, not their practice.
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2005 7:55 pm
Mistress DragonFlame I do not have a doctor. I've never needed one. I don't go to regular check ups, and I barely even take medication when I have a cold. However, if I find that my doctor, the one my insurance company pays, does NOT approve of abortions and thus will not provide them, I'll do everything possible to get my insurance company to switch to someone who does. Why? Because I want someone who can cover all my emergencies, inculding pregnancy. I don't want to suddenly find out my doctor is prolife when I've been knocked up. It's the same reason most people prefer the same sex doctor. Well, not completely the same, but we're discriminating against someone for them, not their practice.
My family doctor is a male, which my sister is fine with but when she goes to get her pap smear she gets him to refer her to a different doctor because she isn't comfortable with him doing it. Why couldn't you do that with your doctor? Why to you have to force your morals down their throat if that's supposedly part of what you're fighting against?
See what I'm getting at?
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Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 12:32 pm
See, here's the thing.
Doctors have dedicated themselves to a job where they have to a lot of odd things. They have to see gross things, and do gross things that people in other professions will never have to do. Now, if you were to have a doctor that was pro-life, is it unreasonable to ask the doctor to perform one? If you didn't know they were pro-life in the first place (because that's not a question one usually asks a family doctor. "Hey, in case I get knocked up, do you do abortions?"), then I say that it's not unreasonable to ask them. As for abortions going against their morals as a person, they also have to look at their morals as a doctor.
Think about this: Woman wants an abortion, asks her doctor for one. Doctor is pro-life, won't provide one, won't provide the name of a doctor that -will- do one. Oh well, she can't force her morals on him, right?
Now this: Woman wants her tonsils out, asks her doctor to perform the procedure. Doctor doesn't think she needs one, won't provide one, won't provide the name of a doctor who will give her one.
Now, you can't say that the second doctor in the situation is being very reasonable. He has a responsibility as a medical professional to treat operations, and surgeries, and procedures, and all types of things like that, as objective. Now, he doesn't have to perform it, but is it really so unreasonable to ask a doctor to be a medical professional, and at least help her obtain the needs for the procedure that she wants?
This comparison doesn't really work for me.
Nice try, though.
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Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 1:26 pm
Mcphee See, here's the thing.
Doctors have dedicated themselves to a job where they have to a lot of odd things. They have to see gross things, and do gross things that people in other professions will never have to do. Now, if you were to have a doctor that was pro-life, is it unreasonable to ask the doctor to perform one? If you didn't know they were pro-life in the first place (because that's not a question one usually asks a family doctor. "Hey, in case I get knocked up, do you do abortions?"), then I say that it's not unreasonable to ask them. As for abortions going against their morals as a person, they also have to look at their morals as a doctor.
Think about this: Woman wants an abortion, asks her doctor for one. Doctor is pro-life, won't provide one, won't provide the name of a doctor that -will- do one. Oh well, she can't force her morals on him, right?
Now this: Woman wants her tonsils out, asks her doctor to perform the procedure. Doctor doesn't think she needs one, won't provide one, won't provide the name of a doctor who will give her one.
Now, you can't say that the second doctor in the situation is being very reasonable. He has a responsibility as a medical professional to treat operations, and surgeries, and procedures, and all types of things like that, as objective. Now, he doesn't have to perform it, but is it really so unreasonable to ask a doctor to be a medical professional, and at least help her obtain the needs for the procedure that she wants?
This comparison doesn't really work for me.
Nice try, though. Realize the situation here. A tonselectomy is not the same as an abortion. Many organizations withdraw from certain procedures for issues of belief and safety. If I get a PhD. I do it to deliver your child, to save your life, and to medicate you and other services, any other ones that can allow me to better your life, which is my job. No one should have to drop their dream of Doctor-dom because they know they'll be forced to give something that do not agree with at all. And it may be against the religion of the Doctor, what then? "Screw your beliefs, I just need my abortion" is basically what she is telling him.
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Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 2:25 pm
kp606 Realize the situation here. A tonselectomy is not the same as an abortion. Many organizations withdraw from certain procedures for issues of belief and safety. If I get a PhD. I do it to deliver your child, to save your life, and to medicate you and other services, any other ones that can allow me to better your life, which is my job. No one should have to drop their dream of Doctor-dom because they know they'll be forced to give something that do not agree with at all. And it may be against the religion of the Doctor, what then? "Screw your beliefs, I just need my abortion" is basically what she is telling him.
It's not telling a doctor 'screw your beliefs', it's letting him know that he chose a career where he would have to do certain things. He has to allow himself to compromise a little bit.
Now, I'm no big religious person, so I don't know a lot. But I know that catholics are against birth control. So, if a man was to get a vasectomy, does that count as birth control, and therefore against his religion? Is he going to refuse?
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Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 8:11 am
Mcphee Oh, I know a tonselectomy isn't the same as an abortion. The only way the two are comparable is that they're both legal, medical procedures. People have a right to get a procedure that they deem necessary.
It's not telling a doctor 'screw your beliefs', it's letting him know that he chose a career where he would have to do certain things. He has to allow himself to compromise a little bit.
Now, I'm no big religious person, so I don't know a lot. But I know that catholics are against birth control. So, if a man was to get a vasectomy, does that count as birth control, and therefore against his religion? Is he going to refuse?
Those are in no way compairable, abortion is in no way compairable to any other medical pocedure as no other medical procedure kills another human.
Not only this but if you read the entire you you'll see that the message was for all choicers, no just the ones that want to have an abortion. So basically they're saying that even you should check and make sure that your doctor performs abortions and consider finding a new one of s/he doesn't.
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Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 10:43 am
toxic_lollipop So then, by that reasoning you support forcing your morals on someone if they have a certain job? A doctor can be pro-choice, but not pro-abortion and you won't support them because you feel they shouldn't have a problem with abortion?
The problem with abortion is that it is a very personal topic. It's not medication that a woman needs most of the time, and most of the time it won't kill her if she doesn't have it. So it's not something you can group in with say, cancer treatment.
A doctor takes an oath to not harm anyone (I believe that's the gist of it) and if they feel it's harming someone, whether you do or not, is it not wrong of the pro-'choice' idea to not support someone's choice?
"An abortion should be between and woman and her doctor." Is that not something I've heard countless times?
(And thank you I had a hard time with the blues. I used to be such an AT geek whee ) As has also been said countless times before, if a doctor is uncomfortable with performing abortion then he/she should either move to a different area of practice or advice his patients on where they can get abortions. A doctor forcing his beliefs on the woman in question has a much greater effect than the woman forcing ehr beliefs on the doctor. I don't use pain killers except in the case of tooth removal or something worse. My reasons for this is my hatred of vivisection, however, I would not refuse a person over the counter pain killers if I worked in a shop. I'm a vegan, but whilst working in a cafe I did not refuse to serve people roast beef and chicken curries. If I had there would have been a lot of very pissed off people acusing me of forcing my beliefs on them, yet they were perfectly within their rights to force me to serve them meat. I chose that job, therefore I could not dictate who I served and what I served to them according to my personal beliefs. Also, the hypocratic oath does not extend to abortions any longer. kp606 If I get a PhD. I do it to deliver your child, to save your life, and to medicate you and other services, any other ones that can allow me to better your life, which is my job. No one should have to drop their dream of Doctor-dom because they know they'll be forced to give something that do not agree with at all. And it may be against the religion of the Doctor, what then? "Screw your beliefs, I just need my abortion" is basically what she is telling him. But is it so much to ask to be referred to someone who will do the proceedure? What if you had a Jewish nurse ((many many apologies if I screw up here I'm not a theologian)), and you needed a blood test? Should she just refuse you that blood test or should she go find a nurse who will do it? It's not about wether or not the proceedure is comparable due to the "fact" that someone is "killed" during an abortion, it is about providing a service without prejudice.
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Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:40 pm
People become doctors to help other people. They do it to save lives and should have the patients' best interests at heart.
However, if they let their personal or religious beliefs stop them from giving someone the care and treatment they want, they should not be a doctor. I would not go to a doctor who wasn't willing to perform an abortion for whatever reason. You wouldn't want to see a racist figher fighter who wasn't willing to save black people because of a 'belief'? Just like you wouldn't want a doctor who wasn't willing to give you an abortion because of a belief.
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Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:18 pm
Shard Aerliss toxic_lollipop So then, by that reasoning you support forcing your morals on someone if they have a certain job? A doctor can be pro-choice, but not pro-abortion and you won't support them because you feel they shouldn't have a problem with abortion?
The problem with abortion is that it is a very personal topic. It's not medication that a woman needs most of the time, and most of the time it won't kill her if she doesn't have it. So it's not something you can group in with say, cancer treatment.
A doctor takes an oath to not harm anyone (I believe that's the gist of it) and if they feel it's harming someone, whether you do or not, is it not wrong of the pro-'choice' idea to not support someone's choice?
"An abortion should be between and woman and her doctor." Is that not something I've heard countless times?
(And thank you I had a hard time with the blues. I used to be such an AT geek whee ) As has also been said countless times before, if a doctor is uncomfortable with performing abortion then he/she should either move to a different area of practice or advice his patients on where they can get abortions. A doctor forcing his beliefs on the woman in question has a much greater effect than the woman forcing ehr beliefs on the doctor. I don't use pain killers except in the case of tooth removal or something worse. My reasons for this is my hatred of vivisection, however, I would not refuse a person over the counter pain killers if I worked in a shop. I'm a vegan, but whilst working in a cafe I did not refuse to serve people roast beef and chicken curries. If I had there would have been a lot of very pissed off people acusing me of forcing my beliefs on them, yet they were perfectly within their rights to force me to serve them meat. I chose that job, therefore I could not dictate who I served and what I served to them according to my personal beliefs. Also, the hypocratic oath does not extend to abortions any longer. kp606 If I get a PhD. I do it to deliver your child, to save your life, and to medicate you and other services, any other ones that can allow me to better your life, which is my job. No one should have to drop their dream of Doctor-dom because they know they'll be forced to give something that do not agree with at all. And it may be against the religion of the Doctor, what then? "Screw your beliefs, I just need my abortion" is basically what she is telling him. But is it so much to ask to be referred to someone who will do the proceedure? What if you had a Jewish nurse ((many many apologies if I screw up here I'm not a theologian)), and you needed a blood test? Should she just refuse you that blood test or should she go find a nurse who will do it? It's not about wether or not the proceedure is comparable due to the "fact" that someone is "killed" during an abortion, it is about providing a service without prejudice. Then i'd point you elsewhere. I'm not even sure if i'd verbalize it though. It is strange for me to tell you where to get your tubes tied....
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Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:54 pm
toxic_lollipop So then, by that reasoning you support forcing your morals on someone if they have a certain job? A doctor can be pro-choice, but not pro-abortion and you won't support them because you feel they shouldn't have a problem with abortion? If there's an aspect of a job you don't want to do then don't apply for the job, it's as simple as. If a doctor who is opposed to elective abortion will not aid his patient in finding a doctor who will provide her with an abortion then he should not be a doctor. I can't pick and choose who I do photocopies and binding for, even if I disapprove of or have a moral objection to the content of their artwork and I don't see why doctors should be able to choose who receives legal medical servitude and what for. Pornography is also a very personal topic, but even if I am opposed to it I have to photocopy or bind it because that's part of my job, and if I feel I can't comply then I should quit.
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Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:06 pm
Foetus In Fetu toxic_lollipop So then, by that reasoning you support forcing your morals on someone if they have a certain job? A doctor can be pro-choice, but not pro-abortion and you won't support them because you feel they shouldn't have a problem with abortion? If there's an aspect of a job you don't want to do then don't apply for the job, it's as simple as. If a doctor who is opposed to elective abortion will not aid his patient in finding a doctor who will provide her with an abortion then he should not be a doctor. I can't pick and choose who I do photocopies and binding for, even if I disapprove of or have a moral objection to the content of their artwork and I don't see why doctors should be able to choose who receives legal medical servitude and what for. Pornography is also a very personal topic, but even if I am opposed to it I have to photocopy or bind it because that's part of my job, and if I feel I can't comply then I should quit. Oh so if you have no desire to do nude portraits then you just shouldn't be an artist... that makes perfect sense...
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