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Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:44 pm
As promised, the Bible verses most commonly used in the anti-gay propeganda: Genesis 19 - the story of Sodom and Gomorra Leviticus 18:22 - Thou shall not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is an abomination. Romans 1:26-27 - For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence [sic] of their error which was meet. 1 Corinithains 6:9-10 - Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God. Timothy 1:9-10 - Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine. I think that these are the ones we can all agree on, yes? And so, let the debate begin. A great site that I took some of the above verse from: http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htmAnd a great article on Biblical practices: http://www.bridges-across.org/ba/wink.htm
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Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:58 pm
I might as well get the first say, before this gets cluttered and I have to argue my way through. xd heart Loves you guys.
Genesis 19 As I've stated before, Sodom was sentenced to destruction in Genesis 18. The angels were sent in to get Lot and his family out before everything went down. They were then greeted by a group of men, who were probably drunk/high, as Sodom was in a war-torn area and people in those kinds of conditions find any escape they can. Either way, strangers had wandered into their city. I don't think their sin here was homosexuality, I always thought it was more along the lines of wanting to gangrape a holy being.
Leviticus Don't sleep with a guy like you sleep with your wife. Women were property, men were rulers. Forcing a man into a woman's role was humiliating. An abominations were things that were socially unacceptable at the time. Not to mention that God needed a strong, numerous, healthy people. Fecal matter has all sorts of diseases in it, and gays can't have kids. Can't fight a war for the holy land if there's no more babies being born. If you look through the surrounding passages, most of them are health-related.
Romans Okay, this is the only one I can't argue completely. The first part... Natural relations are within marriage. So, sleeping around, sleeping with animals, anything like that could be "unnatural." As for the second... Lust, not love. They were looking for a good lay, not a relationship. *shrug*
Corinthians The italic part means the original Hebrew meanings were lost. This was someone's best guess, and no one's REALLY sure what it means. Translators today simply insert the word "homosexual" in there, when that word didn't even exist. In fact, Paul MADE UP a word consisting of "men" and "beds" in Greek to describe this.
Timothy See above. There was a Greek word used to describe men sleeping with other guys, but they skipped over it and used another.
Crap. Out of time. More later.
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Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:46 pm
I think a lot of the homosexuality related ones in Levitcus is like you said- health reasons, or prehaps mental health. For instance, God tells us to save ourselves for marriage because going out and having wild and crazy sex might be fun, but it's much more fulfilling to save ourselves for the person we'll spend our lives with. God wants us to be happy, so while I acknowlegde that homosexuals may be happy with someone of the same sex, but maybe they'd be happier in a heterosexual relationship.
But then you have the gay men who slept with women and hated it, so I could be off my rocker XD
I agree in that homosexuality was not the only sin of Sodom and Gomorrah. And when you look at it, that would have been premarital sex so... yeah. Regardless fo whether you consider homosexuality a sin, you've still gotta deal with premarital sex issue.
In general, they're all about homosexual sex, so I don't see the problem with a romantic, loving, homosexual relationship. I understand sex is a natural way to express love, but there are other ways- a relationship is not built on sex alone.
I have another long, drawn out reason to why I support homosexuality but it's posted somewhere in this guild already and I'm too lazy to find it...
And THANK YOU for making a designated homosexuality thread! YAY!
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Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:18 pm
I've already responded to those bible verses. http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian That article pretty much adresses it all. I have one thing to say though. In Leviticus where it says you shouldn't sleep with a man as you would a woman, I just have this to say: Look, the bible already says if you're sleeping with two people you're an adulterer. A gay man would not sleep with a woman as he would with a man. Quote: I think a lot of the homosexuality related ones in Levitcus is like you said- health reasons, or prehaps mental health. For instance, God tells us to save ourselves for marriage because going out and having wild and crazy sex might be fun, but it's much more fulfilling to save ourselves for the person we'll spend our lives with. God wants us to be happy, so while I acknowlegde that homosexuals may be happy with someone of the same sex, but maybe they'd be happier in a heterosexual relationship. If you're gay and you're happier in a heterosexual relationship than in a homosexual relationship then either you have bad feelings about your orientation (guilt, shame, etc.) or maybe you have to consider that you might not be gay at all. Quote: I agree in that homosexuality was not the only sin of Sodom and Gomorrah. And when you look at it, that would have been premarital sex so... yeah. Regardless fo whether you consider homosexuality a sin, you've still gotta deal with premarital sex issue. Forget premarital sex, they tried to rape the angels. Not exactly a biblical value. Also, the people outside weren't all nessecarily men. The word used meant 'men' in a generic way, like someone saying 'hey you guys'. I would certainly say 'hey you guys' to a crowd of people that could not have any boys or men in it whatsoever. They couldn't tell the gender of the people, they used a generalized term. Homosexuals don't support gang rape, just like heterosexuals don't support gang rape. Besides, Sodom and Gomorrah were all condemned to be destroyed unless the angels could find ten righteous men. That's why the angels were there in the first place, and they only found one righteous man. Even if the people hadn't tried to rape the angels, the city still would have been destroyed. Quote: In general, they're all about homosexual sex, so I don't see the problem with a romantic, loving, homosexual relationship. I understand sex is a natural way to express love, but there are other ways- a relationship is not built on sex Plants aren't made of sunshine, but it wouldn't be such a good idea to put a plant in a dark, windowless room. It would wilt. There are other ways to express love, yes. A hug, a kiss, a cuddle. But you surely can't put these on the same level. A hug is not at all like a kiss, most of the people I've hugged in my life I would never kiss. There are people I've kissed I would feel quite uncomfortable cuddling with. The essence of marriage is that you've reached a point with someone that you want to spend the rest of your life with them, that you've reached a point that you want to physically profess your love for that person. The point of marriage isn't the legal binding or the ceremony, it's the devotion. It is the highest proffession of love. Just like no matter how much you hug someone it will never be equal to a kiss, no amount of kissing or hugging or cuddling could ever be on the same level as making love.
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Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:07 pm
You know, just thinking about who I use to be makes me wanna barf, but when there's ppl who support who I was (a homosexual) then that makes me wanna barf a million times more. And as I see it, being gay was wat ruined my relationship w/ my family (they don't know about my secret past but back then I was a little distant from them) and my relationship w/ God, if I hadn't asked God to help me then I probably would've ran away from home or I would've killed myself. Basically it ruined my life, since God changed me my life has gotten better and better in every way, including spiritually (when I was gay my spiritual growth stopped completely). And when ppl support something like that it makes me full of grief, especially since those ppl don't know the whole "story" of homosexuality.
Where does it say in the constitution that u can't let ur beliefs affect ur vote? Seperation of church and state is not the same thing, and seperation of church and state does NOT mean that ur beliefs can't effect ur vote. Also seperation of church and state is equivelent to seperation of the U.S.A and God, and ppl don't realize that.
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Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:52 pm
thejesusfreak You know, just thinking about who I use to be makes me wanna barf, but when there's ppl who support who I was (a homosexual) then that makes me wanna barf a million times more. And as I see it, being gay was wat ruined my relationship w/ my family (they don't know about my secret past but back then I was a little distant from them) and my relationship w/ God, if I hadn't asked God to help me then I probably would've ran away from home or I would've killed myself. Basically it ruined my life, since God changed me my life has gotten better and better in every way, including spiritually (when I was gay my spiritual growth stopped completely). And when ppl support something like that it makes me full of grief, especially since those ppl don't know the whole "story" of homosexuality. Where does it say in the constitution that u can't let ur beliefs affect ur vote? Seperation of church and state is not the same thing, and seperation of church and state does NOT mean that ur beliefs can't effect ur vote. Also seperation of church and state is equivelent to seperation of the U.S.A and God, and ppl don't realize that. You're beliefs can affect your vote, and mine do. I do not believe in forcing my religion on others, so I vote in a way that it doesnt =)
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Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:29 pm
Quote: You know, just thinking about who I use to be makes me wanna barf, but when there's ppl who support who I was (a homosexual) then that makes me wanna barf a million times more. And as I see it, being gay was wat ruined my relationship w/ my family (they don't know about my secret past but back then I was a little distant from them) and my relationship w/ God, if I hadn't asked God to help me then I probably would've ran away from home or I would've killed myself. Basically it ruined my life, since God changed me my life has gotten better and better in every way, including spiritually (when I was gay my spiritual growth stopped completely). And when ppl support something like that it makes me full of grief, especially since those ppl don't know the whole "story" of homosexuality. What you have to understand is that you are an exception. Most gay people don't undergo extreme depression. That's just the way it is, a lot of them keep their feelings secret and a lot of them feel guilty about it, but a lot of them come to terms with their feelings and accept themselves. A lot of mothers experience depression just after giving birth, but there's nothing wrong with having children. Children are good, like love is good. You're a special case. I understand I can't speak for you, but you can't speak for the entire population of gay people. I was truly depressed once too and I hurt myself and I stopped eating and I hated myself so much but looking back on it I don't have any bad feelings about it. I don't feel guilty for the things I did because I was just depressed. It's a disorder and I couldn't help having it. If looking back on that period of your life makes you feel extreme guilt, then maybe you're not quite over it yet. You can't control sexual attractions just like you can't control depression. Dwelling on things in the past that you can't change isn't healthy. Quote: Where does it say in the constitution that u can't let ur beliefs affect ur vote? Seperation of church and state is not the same thing, and seperation of church and state does NOT mean that ur beliefs can't effect ur vote. Also seperation of church and state is equivelent to seperation of the U.S.A and God, and ppl don't realize that. Jesus said to give what is God's to God and what is Caesar's to Caesar. It's my personal belief that we should have tolerance for other religions, and we shouldn't force beliefs on others. So when can vote I will vote according to my beliefs, and when you can vote you will vote according to yours. The USA is not a theocracy. People should have God, not nations. Removal of separation of church and state will cause opression and a government that opresses its people is not a very Godlike government at all.
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Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:13 pm
thejesusfreak You know, just thinking about who I use to be makes me wanna barf, but when there's ppl who support who I was (a homosexual) then that makes me wanna barf a million times more. And as I see it, being gay was wat ruined my relationship w/ my family (they don't know about my secret past but back then I was a little distant from them) and my relationship w/ God, if I hadn't asked God to help me then I probably would've ran away from home or I would've killed myself. Basically it ruined my life, since God changed me my life has gotten better and better in every way, including spiritually (when I was gay my spiritual growth stopped completely). And when ppl support something like that it makes me full of grief, especially since those ppl don't know the whole "story" of homosexuality. Perhaps it was being distant and depressed that ruined your relationship with your family? Or maybe that you felt so bad about who you were that you couldn't fully come to God that made your faith suffer? I'm really, truely glad that you've found your place in life. However, you may only be one person who needed to be changed before you could come boldly to the throne. There are other gay Christians who come just as they are, knowing that God loves them, even made them that way to begin with. Asking THEM to change would dampen their faith, just as not accepting who God made you put a stutter in your growth.
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Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:30 pm
ryuu_chan thejesusfreak You know, just thinking about who I use to be makes me wanna barf, but when there's ppl who support who I was (a homosexual) then that makes me wanna barf a million times more. And as I see it, being gay was wat ruined my relationship w/ my family (they don't know about my secret past but back then I was a little distant from them) and my relationship w/ God, if I hadn't asked God to help me then I probably would've ran away from home or I would've killed myself. Basically it ruined my life, since God changed me my life has gotten better and better in every way, including spiritually (when I was gay my spiritual growth stopped completely). And when ppl support something like that it makes me full of grief, especially since those ppl don't know the whole "story" of homosexuality. Perhaps it was being distant and depressed that ruined your relationship with your family? Or maybe that you felt so bad about who you were that you couldn't fully come to God that made your faith suffer? I'm really, truely glad that you've found your place in life. However, you may only be one person who needed to be changed before you could come boldly to the throne. There are other gay Christians who come just as they are, knowing that God loves them, even made them that way to begin with. Asking THEM to change would dampen their faith, just as not accepting who God made you put a stutter in your growth. So asking a drug attic to change is dampening their faith because they can do that anymore? Most homosexuals say that they were born like that, they usually say that they were like that by the time they were 4 years old. It sounds to me like satan just got an early start in their life. My mother was a drug attict by the time she was 4 just as the homosexuals were homosexual by the time they were 4. satan just got an early start in their life, and I believe it was a test from God to see if they could come to him. Also when you have been baptized with the Holy Spirit you have spiritual sight and your spirit is very grieved when you are around things you shouldn't be around. One day I bought a video game and my spirit was unbelievably heavy and greivous and I threw it away the same day. I could not stand to be around that game. Before I got the Holy Spirit I was blind. I wouldn't even throw it away in my house. I had to walk to a dumpster. Now I don't expect to change anyones mind, I am just sharing experinace. Man, to be honest, and no offense, I am getting a little worn out from homosexual debates. It is like debating about abortion. It is exausting. xp I guess it all matters how you interperet the Bible. If you interperet it one way then it is that way. I do think it will be an interesting question to ask God, don't you think? smile
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Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:52 am
thelovelyLIZ thejesusfreak You know, just thinking about who I use to be makes me wanna barf, but when there's ppl who support who I was (a homosexual) then that makes me wanna barf a million times more. And as I see it, being gay was wat ruined my relationship w/ my family (they don't know about my secret past but back then I was a little distant from them) and my relationship w/ God, if I hadn't asked God to help me then I probably would've ran away from home or I would've killed myself. Basically it ruined my life, since God changed me my life has gotten better and better in every way, including spiritually (when I was gay my spiritual growth stopped completely). And when ppl support something like that it makes me full of grief, especially since those ppl don't know the whole "story" of homosexuality. Where does it say in the constitution that u can't let ur beliefs affect ur vote? Seperation of church and state is not the same thing, and seperation of church and state does NOT mean that ur beliefs can't effect ur vote. Also seperation of church and state is equivelent to seperation of the U.S.A and God, and ppl don't realize that. You're beliefs can affect your vote, and mine do. I do not believe in forcing my religion on others, so I vote in a way that it doesnt =) Voting against homosexuality does not "force ur religion" on others. It just shows where u stand morally.
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Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:56 am
ryuu_chan thejesusfreak You know, just thinking about who I use to be makes me wanna barf, but when there's ppl who support who I was (a homosexual) then that makes me wanna barf a million times more. And as I see it, being gay was wat ruined my relationship w/ my family (they don't know about my secret past but back then I was a little distant from them) and my relationship w/ God, if I hadn't asked God to help me then I probably would've ran away from home or I would've killed myself. Basically it ruined my life, since God changed me my life has gotten better and better in every way, including spiritually (when I was gay my spiritual growth stopped completely). And when ppl support something like that it makes me full of grief, especially since those ppl don't know the whole "story" of homosexuality. Perhaps it was being distant and depressed that ruined your relationship with your family? Or maybe that you felt so bad about who you were that you couldn't fully come to God that made your faith suffer? I'm really, truely glad that you've found your place in life. However, you may only be one person who needed to be changed before you could come boldly to the throne. There are other gay Christians who come just as they are, knowing that God loves them, even made them that way to begin with. Asking THEM to change would dampen their faith, just as not accepting who God made you put a stutter in your growth. GOD DID NOT MAKE ME GAY! It was the Devil trying to stop me from growing any farther spiritually, his technique was to make me gay. But w/ God's help I prevailed and when I became straight I grew so much spiritaully, mature wise and i opened up to ppl. For the millionth time, homosexuality is a sin, and nothing u say can change that. It maddens me when ppl support such a horrible thing that almost cost me life (social and physical).
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Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:30 pm
thejesusfreak GOD DID NOT MAKE ME GAY! It was the Devil trying to stop me from growing any farther spiritually, his technique was to make me gay. But w/ God's help I prevailed and when I became straight I grew so much spiritaully, mature wise and i opened up to ppl. For the millionth time, homosexuality is a sin, and nothing u say can change that. It maddens me when ppl support such a horrible thing that almost cost me life (social and physical). God created you. Maybe He knew that at that time in your life your faith would falter to the point where nothing short of a miracle would help you, so He changed your orientation. But that doesn't change the fact that God made you who you are. God created other people to be gay, and not all of them are suicidal and depressed. In fact, there are many who are living glorious lives within the church. As a suggestion, read through the Bible again and check the passages on love. Then ask yourself how someone can have a meaningful, spiritual relationship with God while believing that loving someone of the same sex is a sin. It can't be done. But believing that you were painstakingly created by God... Don't give Satan that much credit. His power in this world is great, yes, but he can't MAKE you anything. Love, as the Bible says, is pure and lasting. Homosexual love is no different than heterosexual love, and God wills it for all his children. Especially the ones faced with bigotry. Besides, everyone's a little bit gay. From a 1, which is like someone watching straight smut and liking what they see out of both people to a 10, say... Richard Simmons. Anyhow, I'm willing to bed that you're STILL living in sin. You lie. Lustful thoughts. Unrighteous anger. All these things are warned against in the Bible, even more so than homosexuality. Every person that ever lived falls into these catagories, because it's part of being human. And yet, we're still allowed into heaven, even though we're living in sins we'll never be able to change. I think that being gay has turned into an obsession for you. Don't let your own bad experiences color your thoughts on everyone else's relationships. After all, behind this rather snazzy male avatar could be a female at the keyboard. Or a trannie. What does the Bible say about transsexuals? I think Jesus deliberately said nothing about being gay while he walked among us because He knew that one day a guy would go into an operating room and walk out a female. Is it okay for a man who used to be a woman to marry another woman because technically it's now a straight relationship? Or is it better to stay in a body you don't feel like you belong in and never have that legal bond with the person you love? The Bible couldn't explain these things to a BC audience. So they were left out. How many other things have been left unsaid?
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Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:31 pm
Quote: So asking a drug attic to change is dampening their faith because they can do that anymore? Most homosexuals say that they were born like that, they usually say that they were like that by the time they were 4 years old. It sounds to me like satan just got an early start in their life. My mother was a drug attict by the time she was 4 just as the homosexuals were homosexual by the time they were 4. satan just got an early start in their life, and I believe it was a test from God to see if they could come to him. Also when you have been baptized with the Holy Spirit you have spiritual sight and your spirit is very grieved when you are around things you shouldn't be around. Drug addiction and homosexuality are not the same. A drug addict has to make a concious choice to try drugs. You can't choose to be gay, or choose not to be gay. If you try to quit drugs, it's extremely hard you go through withdrawal you feel physically sick it's not good. Abstaining doesn't make you physically sick, but once you've quit drugs completely your body doesn't crave them anymore. You will always have sexual urges unless you chemically castrate yourself, or something along those lines. Quote: One day I bought a video game and my spirit was unbelievably heavy and greivous and I threw it away the same day. I could not stand to be around that game. Before I got the Holy Spirit I was blind. I wouldn't even throw it away in my house. I had to walk to a dumpster. Now I don't expect to change anyones mind, I am just sharing experinace. Man, to be honest, and no offense, I am getting a little worn out from homosexual debates. It is like debating about abortion. It is exausting. It is, because we're not exactly even on the same level. It's like you see it a completely different way than I do. I don't know, it's like trying to argue that invisible elephants aren't pink, because I can't just say "There aren't any invisible elephants" because I just can't prove that there aren't and since the other person believes it I have to argue assuming invisible elephants exist because that's the only way I can make my point. It's frustrating. Quote: I guess it all matters how you interperet the Bible. If you interperet it one way then it is that way. I do think it will be an interesting question to ask God, don't you think? Well exactly that's why we shouldn't persecute homosexuals in any way because if it's not a sin, then we messed up and sin is for God to judge anyway.
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Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:32 pm
ryuu_chan thejesusfreak GOD DID NOT MAKE ME GAY! It was the Devil trying to stop me from growing any farther spiritually, his technique was to make me gay. But w/ God's help I prevailed and when I became straight I grew so much spiritaully, mature wise and i opened up to ppl. For the millionth time, homosexuality is a sin, and nothing u say can change that. It maddens me when ppl support such a horrible thing that almost cost me life (social and physical). God created you. Maybe He knew that at that time in your life your faith would falter to the point where nothing short of a miracle would help you, so He changed your orientation. But that doesn't change the fact that God made you who you are. God created other people to be gay, and not all of them are suicidal and depressed. In fact, there are many who are living glorious lives within the church. As a suggestion, read through the Bible again and check the passages on love. Then ask yourself how someone can have a meaningful, spiritual relationship with God while believing that loving someone of the same sex is a sin. It can't be done. But believing that you were painstakingly created by God... Don't give Satan that much credit. His power in this world is great, yes, but he can't MAKE you anything. Love, as the Bible says, is pure and lasting. Homosexual love is no different than heterosexual love, and God wills it for all his children. Especially the ones faced with bigotry. FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME GOD DOES NOT MAKE PPL GAY, PPL BECOME GAY EITHER CUZ THEY CHOOSE TO OR CUZ OF PHYSCOLOGICAL "SCARS" (i.e: no same gender role model, bad child hood, was raped as a child, etc.)
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Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:34 pm
Quote: FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME GOD DOES NOT MAKE PPL GAY, PPL BECOME GAY EITHER CUZ THEY CHOOSE TO OR CUZ OF PHYSCOLOGICAL "SCARS" (i.e: no same gender role model, bad child hood, was raped as a child, etc.) God may have not made you gay, but scientists would disagree. Homosexuality is found to be unchangeable, and many gay people did not have bad childhoods or absent parents.
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