Arguments that you hate

[LadyInWhite]

I hate arguments that say that HUMAN life is sacred and needs to be protected.

What makes humans so special?  

[Spicey Cognac]

Shoujo Kakumei J-chan

Faith Burns

My mother is a nurse--well aware of all things following taking birth control pills, and for the record, states birth control pills are not as effective at preventing pregnancy as condoms and diaphragms

Safety and all other factors not withstanding, the majority of the medical profession says your mother is wrong.

Edited to add: http://www.plannedparenthood.org/birth-control-pregnancy/birth-control/effectiveness.htm

I don't really care your personal opinion on prescription drugs - I take a ******** of them and they improve my life a LOT more than the side effects suck. I suck down a dozen pills a day prescribed by a gyno, a psychiatrist, and a GP and I'd be a mess without them, so I think your opinion is a load of s**t, but you're welcome to it as much as anyone else - but I just hate it when someone's argument is "Well, my mom/dad is an *insert profession*..." My father's a loadmaster on cargo planes, but if I tried to do weights and balances, some flights would fall out of the sky.

*sighs* Being that my step-dad IS a physician and I work in their office, I am aware that some people need prescriptions and medications. I am aware that people need them to think, process situations, organize thoughts, and generally just to have a normal life where they can function on a regular basis. Going into the alternative to prescriptions would be an entirely different debate, but what I can't stand are people who butt in and think they completely understand another person's opinion. I can't cover every exception; I sit in the middle on just about every subject, and I have not the time or the patience to cover every possible detail, ancedote, fictional information, factual information, and all that other crap. I don't think I "know everything" because my mother is nurse, but gawd forbid I try to explain why I feel the way I do or use an example to portray an alternative. I've done A LOT of study in alternate methods to drug prescriptions, and that's why I feel the way I do. I have never denied that for some women, birth control might be more effective than other methods, but you must also be open to the fact that for all women it is not; one would think safer alternatives would be defended, but apparently that idea offends some people. In my personal experience, my methods work just fine, which is why I use them. The fact that this debate is even taking place completely eludes me. This has got to be the most redundant topic I have ever debated or seen debated.  

[Akhakhu]

Faith Burns

Kukushka, I'm informing you right now if you continue to respond to sentences or fragments of, I will completely ignore any post you have for the rest of the duration I will be on Gaia. That is not how you debate. You react to what someone is saying in whole, not pick apart every little sentence and twist it into what you want it to be.

I assume that anyone who is reading my post has read yours before hand. I AM responding to you as a whole, but I do it in small parts. This ensures that I address every one of your points without leaving something out. It also ensures that people know which of your arguments/points I am responding to. And pardon me, but it IS how one debates.

Faith Burns

My original quote was:

Quote:

Personally, I think the birth control pill should be banned, but then again all prescription drugs (even over-the-counter drugs although it depends more on usage) carry the side effect of killing you.

No offence, but this sounds to me like you DO want them banned. Whether or not you feel strongly about it is irrelevent.

Faith Burns

My mother is a nurse--well aware of all things following taking birth control pills

Then, if it was making her sick, why did she stick with it so long?

Faith Burns

for the record, states birth control pills are not as effective at preventing pregnancy as condoms and diaphragms-

Actually, they are more effective. The difference is that many people, as I imagine your mother did, do not take them regularly or take other medications that interfere with them. This is human error. On a purely clinical level, however, they are quite a bit more effective than condoms.

Faith Burns

-and I personally am not comfortable going into the details of why she was on the pill, for how long, and other unnecessary facts.

And I personally do not particularly care. The fact of the matter is that AN INDIVIDUAL, whether she be your mother or someone else, should not continue taking medication that is reacting badly to her physiology. One does not need to be a nurse to know this.

Faith Burns

I think having an allergic reaction to something is less severe than the ongoing chance of a heart attack or stroke, although doctors did stop using latex gloves for this reason so obviously it should be met with caution.

Have you ever had an allergic reaction? Trust me, it can be very severe. Not to mention that the risks of a heart attack or stroke from taking the Pill is extremely low. Also, it is generally cumulative. So as long as you are going to your gynecology appointment regularly and having your blood pressure taken, any increase in those risks will usually be caught well before it becomes a problem.

Faith Burns

Like I said, all prescription drugs carry the side effect of death because of how they change and manipulate human bodies, and as someone who works in the medical field with her family, I see the effects of those drugs more often than an average person.

And yet, you would like to see a drug with MANY benefits being banned because of those very (small) risks?

Faith Burns

However it should be obvious I am not on a crusade to rid the world of prescription drugs;

ZOMG! STOP TWISTING MY WORDS!

I never implied that you were on a "crusade." You said that you would like to see them banned. I stated that your reasons are unfounded. In no way have I treated you like a die-hard militant. Please stop victimizing yourself.

Faith Burns

I stated that I understood the reasons why women take the pill and made it clear why I think birth control pills are unnecessary.

Many things are unnecessary. You are on a computer right now, for example. This is completely unnecessary. And look at the risks! Carpal tunnels syndrome, collapsed vertibrae in the neck, severe eye strain and damage, etc... These side effects are actually quite a bit more common than high blood pressure from the pill.

But, like computers, the pills have benefits that, for many people, outweigh the risks. And that's why taking the pill, like computer use, should be up to the individual's discretion. It is entirely not your position or responsibility to hold my hand like a good nanny and make my decisions for me.

Faith Burns

In the future, I will be happy to repond to your posts when your arguments address the entirety of the post and a basic understanding between both parties can be made, but until then I have no interest in continuing.

Honestly, this whole "I made an outrageous statement with little to no basis and I've been caught out on it, so I will just sit around and gripe on differences in stylistic opinion" thing is really getting old. It's no better, in my opinion, than the person who will ignore the entire argument (as you've done - you've responded to none of my points directly) and just whines because of a mispelled word.

Faith Burns

what I can't stand are people who butt in and think they completely understand another person's opinion.

Butt in? Public forum, sweetheart. There's no such thing as "butting in."

You stated, clear as day, that you think that the Pill should be banned. If that's not what you meant, it's your fault for not saying what you DID mean.

Faith Burns

I have never denied that for some women, birth control might be more effective than other methods, but you must also be open to the fact that for all women it is not;

Excuse me, but I have stated MULTIPLE TIMES that the Pill is NOT the best method for everyone and that people who react badly (whether it's because they cannot take it regularly or because it actually has negative effects on their body) should use an alternative.

YOU are the one who said that, because YOU don't like it, that it should be banned. Now, I'm not an expert or anything, but in my books that counts for being a hypocrit.

Faith Burns

one would think safer alternatives would be defended, but apparently that idea offends some people.

Wow. And *I* am the one twisting your words and not understing your arguments?

Honestly, do we live in the same reality?

Faith Burns

In my personal experience, my methods work just fine, which is why I use them.

That's awesome. Good for you. I fully support that you've found a method that works for you. I have NEVER said ANYTHING bad about whatever method you picked.

If you remember correctly, YOU are the one who came in here and told us that MY method should be banned because you don't like it.  

[SKJC]

Faith Burns

*sighs* Being that my step-dad IS a physician and I work in their office, I am aware that some people need prescriptions and medications. I am aware that people need them to think, process situations, organize thoughts, and generally just to have a normal life where they can function on a regular basis. Going into the alternative to prescriptions would be an entirely different debate, but what I can't stand are people who butt in and think they completely understand another person's opinion. I can't cover every exception; I sit in the middle on just about every subject, and I have not the time or the patience to cover every possible detail, ancedote, fictional information, factual information, and all that other crap. I don't think I "know everything" because my mother is nurse, but gawd forbid I try to explain why I feel the way I do or use an example to portray an alternative. I've done A LOT of study in alternate methods to drug prescriptions, and that's why I feel the way I do. I have never denied that for some women, birth control might be more effective than other methods, but you must also be open to the fact that for all women it is not; one would think safer alternatives would be defended, but apparently that idea offends some people. In my personal experience, my methods work just fine, which is why I use them. The fact that this debate is even taking place completely eludes me. This has got to be the most redundant topic I have ever debated or seen debated.

Okay, you pulled the mommy/daddy card again. Why? I mean, seriously. I do not give two ******** what your parents do for a living. smile

I wasn't trying to get into this debate. You made a claim that your mother says birth control pills, meaning prescription oral hormonal contraceptives, are less effective than barrier contraceptives, i.e. the male condom or the diaphragm. I told you your mother is factually incorrect, all opinions completely and totally off the table. It is not a matter of opinion or experience, it's a matter of factual information, and some of us like that stuff to be correct, not made up by someone who thinks that opinions are above criticism and can never ever be wrong.

I am not arguing the issue of the safety of prescription drugs, nor the issue of their necessity, because you're right, that would be a far different debate. But did you really think you'd get off without being flamed in the PRO-CHOICE GUILD saying you think the birth control pill should be banned? Seriously, that wasn't a bright statement to make on your part. The Pill was a huge part of revolutionizing women's reproductive rights in the Western world.  

[[Minnie]]

Shoujo Kakumei J-chan

Faith Burns

*sighs* Being that my step-dad IS a physician and I work in their office, I am aware that some people need prescriptions and medications. I am aware that people need them to think, process situations, organize thoughts, and generally just to have a normal life where they can function on a regular basis. Going into the alternative to prescriptions would be an entirely different debate, but what I can't stand are people who butt in and think they completely understand another person's opinion. I can't cover every exception; I sit in the middle on just about every subject, and I have not the time or the patience to cover every possible detail, ancedote, fictional information, factual information, and all that other crap. I don't think I "know everything" because my mother is nurse, but gawd forbid I try to explain why I feel the way I do or use an example to portray an alternative. I've done A LOT of study in alternate methods to drug prescriptions, and that's why I feel the way I do. I have never denied that for some women, birth control might be more effective than other methods, but you must also be open to the fact that for all women it is not; one would think safer alternatives would be defended, but apparently that idea offends some people. In my personal experience, my methods work just fine, which is why I use them. The fact that this debate is even taking place completely eludes me. This has got to be the most redundant topic I have ever debated or seen debated.

Okay, you pulled the mommy/daddy card again. Why? I mean, seriously. I do not give two ******** what your parents do for a living. smile

I wasn't trying to get into this debate. You made a claim that your mother says birth control pills, meaning prescription oral hormonal contraceptives, are less effective than barrier contraceptives, i.e. the male condom or the diaphragm. I told you your mother is factually incorrect, all opinions completely and totally off the table. It is not a matter of opinion or experience, it's a matter of factual information, and some of us like that stuff to be correct, not made up by someone who thinks that opinions are above criticism and can never ever be wrong.

I am not arguing the issue of the safety of prescription drugs, nor the issue of their necessity, because you're right, that would be a far different debate. But did you really think you'd get off without being flamed in the PRO-CHOICE GUILD saying you think the birth control pill should be banned? Seriously, that wasn't a bright statement to make on your part. The Pill was a huge part of revolutionizing women's reproductive rights in the Western world.

Aside from the fact that you are basically personally attacking your fellow Pro-Choicer (who does seem to have some messed up priorities) I totally agree with that.
The Birth Control Pill was something that our mothers and grand-mothers fought to have. After so much that women have done to gain the right to their own reproductive organs, another woman suggesting that it be banned shocks and appals me. Yes, I would classify myself as a feminist to an extent. No, I am not a man-hater or would I burn my bra, but fighting for the rights that we deserve just to have another woman say that it's not right and should be made illegal AGAIN is WRONG.  

[Spicey Cognac]

Again, my original statement carries a different connotation than the implications you are getting from it. I don't know how else to say it. Debates do lead from one idea to another, but implying that I'm attacking feminism itself because I personally would not take the pill and find it less necessary than simpler forms of birth control is outrageous. You blatantly state "I have messed up ideals" solely because I don't think the risks are worth it to an alternative while also stating the reason for the pill's existence is clearly understood and respected. You feel the attack is on yourselves when there is no attack to begin with--simply an idea that those risks are extreme, no matter how unlikely they may be. I respect your reasons for wanting to take the pill, but once again, you are misunderstanding the original connotation of the statement. There's nothing else in this debate to discuss, so I am walking away.  

[SKJC]

I don't think there are many ways to misunderstand the statement "I think the birth control pill should be banned".. Seems pretty clear, even with the amending statements. You can personally use whatever birth control methods you want and I don't give a rats' a** - but statements like that are disturbing to me.

You are twisting the debate into something it's not. My problem was with your facts being wrong and your mommy/daddy card-playing, not your choice of contraceptives for whatever reasons.. You were the one with the problem with a method of contraceptives, albiet not with any one person's choice of a method, with the method in general.  

[MipsyKitten]

Faith Burns

*sighs* Being that my step-dad IS a physician and I work in their office, I am aware that some people need prescriptions and medications.

I hate this. This is what children do on the playground.

Your father being a physician doesn't mean you have the same knowledge, or even the same understanding as someone who's gone through years of medical school. It's like saying, ebcause your mother is a lawyer, you have years of law school and court experience so your opinion is more valid than mine.

Receptionist =/= doctor, lawyer, vet or any other profession that takes intense schooling to acheive.

If your mother really is in the medical profession, and she says hormonal birth control is less effective than condoms, I'd think twice before making an appointment. Opinion =/= fact. The pill is more effective than condoms period.  

[Akhakhu]

Did you guys know? Career knowledge is genetic!

Hoorah! I'm an architect! Who wants to give me a contract?  

[MipsyKitten]

Kukushka

Did you guys know? Career knowledge is genetic!

Hoorah! I'm an architect! Who wants to give me a contract?

Only if I can get a gun and access to military secrets.  

[Half Baked SF]

Kukushka

Did you guys know? Career knowledge is genetic!

Hoorah! I'm an architect! Who wants to give me a contract?

Hey, this means I know how to build a carport AND file the paperwork for the appropriate permits! biggrin

Anyway, I hate it when someone's only excuse against BI is "you put it there!" rolleyes

Oh, and whenever someone says "deal with the consequences," I want to bitchslap them. 2 reasons:

-Seeing a child as nothing more than a consequence is sickening, and
-Abortion IS a consequence by definition.  

[[Minnie]]

H'oh s**t! Who needs Cement?! Apparantly I have geneticlaly inheirited my fathers A type license!  

[Nethilia]

Kukushka

Did you guys know? Career knowledge is genetic!

Hoorah! I'm an architect! Who wants to give me a contract?

Yay! I'm a seamstress anda motocycle rider and a teacher that won't kill my students!

Wait, I really am a seamstress. But I learned through ******** working at it for more than 20 years, not just because Mom sewed around me. I had to LEARN.  

[Akhakhu]

Nethilia

Wait, I really am a seamstress. But I learned through ******** working at it for more than 20 years, not just because Mom sewed around me. I had to LEARN.

*Offtopic*

Yer a ******** good one, too. ********. I wanna be as good as you. But everything I try to make ends up looking like s**t. ********.  

[Talon-chan]

MipsyKitten

Faith Burns

*sighs* Being that my step-dad IS a physician and I work in their office, I am aware that some people need prescriptions and medications.

I hate this. This is what children do on the playground.

Your father being a physician doesn't mean you have the same knowledge, or even the same understanding as someone who's gone through years of medical school. It's like saying, ebcause your mother is a lawyer, you have years of law school and court experience so your opinion is more valid than mine.

Receptionist =/= doctor, lawyer, vet or any other profession that takes intense schooling to acheive.

If your mother really is in the medical profession, and she says hormonal birth control is less effective than condoms, I'd think twice before making an appointment. Opinion =/= fact. The pill is more effective than condoms period.

See I disagree... though not entirely

The fact someone's parent is a physician does not mean that they, too, will have all the knowledge of a medically trained professional... it does however mean that they will be regularly exposed to knowledge other people are not exposed to, and as such may know more about a topic than a complete novice.

My father was in the fire department. I knew more about fire, what to do in a fire, how to get out of a burning building, and all of that jazz than the typical child my age because I picked it up from my father who made sure I knew these things (I guess he pulled one too many dead children out of burnt buildings to dare risk me not being knowledgable on what to do). I knew more than some adults how fire worked when I was a kid. Does that mean I was able to fight fires? Not at all... it just means I picked up some knowledge other people were not regularly exposed to.

While citing that as an appeal to authority would be completely and entirely wrong/fallacious/whatever... one is not entirely full of s**t when one says that because of familial or work place ties they've come across knowledge not readily accessible or of great familiarity to others.

I'd trust a doctor before I'd trust the doctor's wife. I'd trust the doctor's wife before I'd trust a layperson.