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DCVI
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:08 pm


I'll type it out, expect typos:

Glamour
"Lakshmi Devi Rawat sits in the courtyard of her house in the village of Aoutri in northern India, amid a knot of children, relatives and neighbors, talking about her failure to give birth to a boy. "Whenever I had a girl, my husband's family would say, 'We will not keep you,'" says the attractive forty-one-year-old, shading her face with the end of her maroon and gold sair. Her in-laws were disappointed after her first daughter, but it was after the birth of her second that the pressure really began. Neighbors started bringing her homemade 'medicines' that they claimed would help her to conceive a boy. They didn't work: She gave birth to a third daughter. Then her relatives began ignoring her and calling her a kutiya (b***h); her fellow villagers began avoiding her. She got pregnant again and gave birth to a fourth daughter. This birth was viewed as an unmitigated disaster. "The whole family didn't eat for a week," she recalls.

Four more girls would have followed, except that they were never born. Each time thereafter, where Rawat got pregnant, her husband would send her to the barny town of Palwal, where for abotu $12 a doctor would give hr an ultrasound and, once determining that the fetus was a girl, a $35 abortion. Rawat had four such abortions over the next two years. "The doctor would say, 'You'll ruin your stomach,' but I didn't care," she says. "To my mind, it was better to die than to be under so much pressure from the community." Finally, Rawat gave birth to a boy, and instantly she was no longer the village pariah. "We threw a party, and the whole village ate," racalls Rawat's husband's uncle, Kake Singh, hunched on a stool nearby, before adding, "My wife had fifteen abortions, and now i Have six sons!"

"Now everyone talks to me," Rawat says contentedly, "My life has totally changed."

India has a long history of getting rid of unwanted baby girls. For centuries, midwives in parts of rural India have known how to kill a female newborn by forcing a taoxic amount of tobacco or salkt into her mouth. But over the past twenty years with the advent of ultrasounds, getting rid of girls before they're born, known as sex selection, has reached epidemic proportions. (Abortion has been legal in India since 1971.) By 2001, the national census showed that for everyone 1,000 boys six years old and under, there were only 927girls, down from 945 girls per thousand boys in 1991. (It doesn't sound huge, but it's statistically siesmic). In pockets of the country, the ratio became even more lopsided: A 2002 study funded by the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation found that in one area of Punjab, there were 628 girls for every 1,000 boys among children age six and under. "What we are seeing," says Delhi obstetrician-gynecologist Puneet Bedi, M.D., "is a genocide."

In India a boy is a source of future wealth and a status symbol-it is the son who lights his parents' funeral pyres in Hindu ceremonies-while a girl, by contrast, is often viewed as a liability. Sons traditionally inherit property, keeping it in the family, while daughters cost money by requiring a dowry when they get married. "Raising a daughter," goes the old Punjabi saying, "is like watering your neighbor's garden." During the 1980s medical clinics capitalized on this bias against girls, targeting nervous future parents with aggressive marketing campaigns that played on their fear of an expensive dowry. "Spend 500 Rupees now," one poster read, referring to the price of an abortion, "Save 50,000 rupees later." Finally, in 1994, the government passed a law forbidding doctors from telling patients the sex of a fetus. But since ultrasound scans are done behind closed doors, the law is basically unenforceable, and the practice continues to thrive. Doctors have found new codes to indicate the sex to mothers, rather then telling them outright. "Start shopping for blue," they hint. And should the fetus turn out to be a girl, getting it aborted is easy: "Abortions are widely available and are free in government hospitals. "There's no shame associated with abortion when you're getting rid of a pain in the a**--a girl," says Dr. Bedi furiously. "It's as normal as having a cup of coffee."

A study recently published in the British medical journal The Lancet estimates that over the past two decades, as many as ten million fetii have been aborted because their parents didn't want ot have a girl. And as the first generation of children born in the age of sex selection beings to reach adulthood, the effects of the lopsided ration in Inidia are becoming more pronounced-- and frightening. In the most uneven sex rations, young women are so scarce that trafficking brides for desperate bachelors has become big business. In Delhi, India's bustling capital, the streets and restaurants have become incresibly male-dominated, leading women to fear for their safety, say activists. What will things look like in 20 years?


Now 'scuse me while I go giggle fiendishly in the corner.

Haha. choice.

Okay, the article is actually longer. Another testimony, it talks a little about the trafficking, about how it's noticeable in public, increased instances of rape, and the onset of hope as awareness is being brought forth. So let's see what the hope of abortion has brought to the people of India:
-an imbalance of gender.
-bridal trafficking.
-female feticide (and the article actually reads that in a later part)
-rape
-yet another venue for a Black Market

The article speaks for itself, I have little to say about it other then this is part of the reality of "reproductive rights" it can be used against you. Just like the right to arms, the right to freedom of assembly, freedom of speech, and other other freedom granted to you.

I just see this as one more reason i'm pro-life, this is an attack on human life and human dignity on all fronts. It undermines fetal rights entirely, and it's also a blemish against women. As you read above, the Doctor specifically calls this "a genocide" and it's aimed at women.

I have respect for different cultures but I sometimes wonder where culture is just a matter of dressing and speaking differently, and a difference between the civilized, and the barbaric. These women apparently think what they're doing is good but ultimately they are making no "choice", just doing what they need to to survive. The circumstnaces being given are unfair. Not to mention, they're damaging the envirement by throwing the gender ratio: the article later reads about how on a College campus all the women rush off once class is through because they're so vastly outnumbered, they fear for themselves.

But the greatest reason why I posted this article is in response to the anti-adoption argument.

Likewise, where Americans want nice, healthy, white babies, Indians desire nice healthy, Indian boys. Here's the difference: in the Indian system no one gets left in the agency, they just get left in the trash. If you think the bias of adoption is a flaw that mucks the entire system over, then you must equally believe abortion is a pretty jaded buisness with this going on (and in more places then India. China anyone?))

Abortion is a means for more then just control over one's own body, it's also a means for controlling one's children. This is more about timing and envirement, it's about type. Perhaps you have a leg to stand on if you say you've aborted because you are incapable of supporting a child, but I think you're pretty much flailing in the dust if you abort because your kid wasn't a boy. And in the age of Spoiled, White Westerners, it's only a matter of time before Amercan Children become as selected as handbags.

And as glittery...
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:26 pm


Thats if statistics do not stay the same as they are now as well as increase. It seems as the years role by more an dmore americans show their distates for abortion, and eventualy their disgust. If population statistics are correct in america, we should see a large increase in conservativeness.

Tiger of the Fire


DCVI
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:09 pm


Pyro... i'm sorry but what exactly are you speaking about?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:09 pm


Oh, but see, fetuses aren't babies, they're body parts, so it's okay to kill the female ones. You can't be sexist against lifeless clumps of cells, silly! blaugh After all, if a woman wants an abortion for any reason, even this one, it should be her choice, AMIRITE??

Disclaimer for my mentally retarded readers: this was sarcasm.

La Veuve Zin

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DCVI
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:33 pm


La Veuve Zin
Oh, but see, fetuses aren't babies, they're body parts, so it's okay to kill the female ones. You can't be sexist against lifeless clumps of cells, silly! blaugh After all, if a woman wants an abortion for any reason, even this one, it should be her choice, AMIRITE??

Disclaimer for my mentally retarded readers: this was sarcasm.


URARITE, lolz. Female power forever!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:05 pm


What a horror. I can only imagine how terrible it would be to be forced into getting rid of a child simply because it wasn't the right gender for whatever reason. And the pressures one would go through because you didn't concieve the right gender right away or at all. Which is the man's fault anyway; guys determine the sex of the child not the woman.

Although I will admit, I'm a little confused about the "Spoiled, White Westerners" comments.

Hillbilly Hikari

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DCVI
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:08 pm


Hikari Aijuntani
What a horror. I can only imagine how terrible it would be to be forced into getting rid of a child simply because it wasn't the right gender for whatever reason. And the pressures one would go through because you didn't concieve the right gender right away or at all. Which is the man's fault anyway; guys determine the sex of the child not the woman.

Although I will admit, I'm a little confused about the "Spoiled, White Westerners" comments.

The West is basically coming to an age where we want to micromanage and control everything, despite how virtually impossible or insane that level of control may be.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:20 pm


kp606
Hikari Aijuntani
What a horror. I can only imagine how terrible it would be to be forced into getting rid of a child simply because it wasn't the right gender for whatever reason. And the pressures one would go through because you didn't concieve the right gender right away or at all. Which is the man's fault anyway; guys determine the sex of the child not the woman.

Although I will admit, I'm a little confused about the "Spoiled, White Westerners" comments.

The West is basically coming to an age where we want to micromanage and control everything, despite how virtually impossible or insane that level of control may be.


True, but not everyone is fighting off that control either. There's a lot of people who wish the West controlled more to make life easier for them. But I hardly agree that just because one is white that automatically puts them in that category.

Inevitably if the WEst controlled Indian, for example, there would probably be some sort of cultural change to where women choose whether or not they wanted to abort their children simply because of gender. It sounds like if the woman in the article had had an honest-to-goodness real choice in the matter, she'd have a lot more daughters.

Which again makes the situation completely absurd. Because obviously its getting to the point to where hardly ANY girls are going to be born at all in that country because of this ridiculous outlook on life. And sooner or later, they're going to end up killing themselves off simply because they're not giving themselves a way to keep life going.

Cuz like or not, it takes both men and women to keep life going. No matter how much anyone dislikes that fact, it still doesn't change it.

Hillbilly Hikari

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WatersMoon110
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:24 pm


Being forced to get an abortion, for finacial or cultural reason, or literally forced verbally or physically, isn't a choice. Being Pro-Choice is for allowing women to be able to choose.

Culturally forced abortions are not Pro-Choice, nor do I (or any other Pro-Choices, that I know of, for that matter) support them.

Do I think a woman should be allowed to choose to abort a fetus because of gender? Well, I don't agree with her reasoning, but it is her choice.

But in cultures like India and China, where it is seen as "better" to have a male child than a female child, I guess I would rather seen female fetii aborted than female infants feed unshelled rice or burned to death. However, the best choice would be to promote women's rights, and make women more desirable (as they would no longer just be married away, and could also support their own parents).
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:27 pm


WatersMoon110
Being forced to get an abortion, for finacial or cultural reason, or literally forced verbally or physically, isn't a choice. Being Pro-Choice is for allowing women to be able to choose.

Culturally forced abortions are not Pro-Choice, nor do I (or any other Pro-Choices, that I know of, for that matter) support them.

Do I think a woman should be allowed to choose to abort a fetus because of gender? Well, I don't agree with her reasoning, but it is her choice.

But in cultures like India and China, where it is seen as "better" to have a male child than a female child, I guess I would rather seen female fetii aborted than female infants feed unshelled rice or burned to death. However, the best choice would be to promote women's rights, and make women more desirable (as they would no longer just be married away, and could also support their own parents).


But what about all those stories you hear about or read where someone, female or male, has been in a country like that and they've just been left for dead and for whatever circumstance they ended having a very difficult but fruitful life?

Obviously not all of them are that lucky, but who's to say which one(s) will or won't be that lucky?? I'm mean look at all the Vietnam War children who were shunned in their own country simply because they were half white; there are a lot of survival stories there from those children who've grown up and some who've even made a huge impact on the world today.

Hillbilly Hikari

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:35 pm


Hikari Aijuntani
But what about all those stories you hear about or read where someone, female or male, has been in a country like that and they've just been left for dead and for whatever circumstance they ended having a very difficult but fruitful life?

Obviously not all of them are that lucky, but who's to say which one(s) will or won't be that lucky?? I'm mean look at all the Vietnam War children who were shunned in their own country simply because they were half white; there are a lot of survival stories there from those children who've grown up and some who've even made a huge impact on the world today.

I'm sorry, I really don't understand what part of my post you are replying to, nor exactly what you mean.

Starting out with a hard life always makes it more difficult to prosper. Some wonderful people do end up doing great things with their lives, no matter their backgrounds.

But making it more culturally acceptable for someone to be what they are (female, of a race or of mixed races, homosexual or bisexual, etc.) is always more benifitial. And in this case, if women were seen as more benifitial to their parents (not just as someone they have to support, then marry off so they can take care of their husband's parents and home) it would remove the cultural pressure for women to abort female fetii.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:43 pm


WatersMoon110

I'm sorry, I really don't understand what part of my post you are replying to, nor exactly what you mean.

Starting out with a hard life always makes it more difficult to prosper. Some wonderful people do end up doing great things with their lives, no matter their backgrounds.

But making it more culturally acceptable for someone to be what they are (female, of a race or of mixed races, homosexual or bisexual, etc.) is always more benifitial. And in this case, if women were seen as more benifitial to their parents (not just as someone they have to support, then marry off so they can take care of their husband's parents and home) it would remove the cultural pressure for women to abort female fetii.


heh, sorry. Pregnancy makes me a little spacey sometimes and what I try to say doesn't always come out. sweatdrop I was replying to your last paragraph.

I don't think it would be ncessarily better to make women seem more beneficial to their parents because then it could change the course of things to where male fetii are aborted.

Hillbilly Hikari

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Tiger of the Fire

PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:49 pm


kp606
Pyro... i'm sorry but what exactly are you speaking about?


Miranda posted an article about it. It was a refutation of the "there are too many people" myth about america. It basicly came down to saying that the only families having a enough children to the point where their ideals, philosophies, and such are carried directly or in great part to the next generation are those with a conservative mind set. Now, not all conservatives disagree with abortion, but the vast majority do.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:51 pm


Hikari Aijuntani
heh, sorry. Pregnancy makes me a little spacey sometimes and what I try to say doesn't always come out. sweatdrop I was replying to your last paragraph.

I don't think it would be ncessarily better to make women seem more beneficial to their parents because then it could change the course of things to where male fetii are aborted.

Don't worry about it. I remember when my sister was pregnant *grin* and at least you are yelling at me while crying about an insurance commercial... *smile*

I was just rather unsure what you were replying to.

I think it would be unlikely that making women seem more benifitial would make men seem less benifital to their parents in those cultures. And I am against culture seeing any gender as less benifital and abortion or killing that gender, as I imagine just about everyone else is.

I think it's horrible that female fetii are aborted just for being female, and would think that male fetii being aborted for being male is just as bad (though as far as I know, no culture is anti-male).

But I don't think the solution to this problem is getting rid of abortion in India (or China), as they might very well go back to killing female infants, but rather to help them to see female children as a blessing rather than a burden, as all children deserve to be seen.

WatersMoon110
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Hillbilly Hikari

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 4:05 pm


WatersMoon110

Don't worry about it. I remember when my sister was pregnant *grin* and at least you are yelling at me while crying about an insurance commercial... *smile*

I was just rather unsure what you were replying to.

I think it would be unlikely that making women seem more benifitial would make men seem less benifital to their parents in those cultures. And I am against culture seeing any gender as less benifital and abortion or killing that gender, as I imagine just about everyone else is.

I think it's horrible that female fetii are aborted just for being female, and would think that male fetii being aborted for being male is just as bad (though as far as I know, no culture is anti-male).

But I don't think the solution to this problem is getting rid of abortion in India (or China), as they might very well go back to killing female infants, but rather to help them to see female children as a blessing rather than a burden, as all children deserve to be seen.


I agree, it would be the ideal situation to make both genders equally as important to cultures like that. But I really don't think in this day that going back to killing a child post-birth would start again. I think too many countries would step up to stop it. Kinda like when Hitler started killing people off based on their religion, eye color, and/or hair color.
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