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Skittishfit

PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:08 am


This deals with John 1:1; 1:14, and more. Regarding the Logos, Greek for "Word", among other meanings, which can be viewed on wikipedia.org.
Basically, what things boil down to with this writing, is: Jesus, not being a persona [as in Son; part of what is noted as the Trinity], but a plan, thought of by God before mankind was created [showing Deuteronomy 6:4 with there being one LORD meaning exactly that, one. Along with 1 Timothy 3:16, mentioning God was manifested in the flesh, being Jesus. Not part of the Trinity [the Son, Jesus], but God Himself, one LORD Himself.], before the Earth was formed [Ephesians 1:4]. Revelation 4:2

David K. Bernard
God and the Logos
In the Age of the Greek Apologists, we find a progressive
shift away from the biblical doctrine of Oneness and
the substantially identical views of the Post-Apostolic
Age. The vague possible indications of a preexistent Son
by Pseudo-Barnabas and Hermas become explicit in this
age.
Near the beginning of the age stood Aristides, whose
doctrine of God was for the most part biblical Oneness,
and the Epistle to Diognetus, which still retained a predominantly
biblical view but began to separate God and
the Word. At the apex of the age, Justin and his disciple
Tatian clearly differentiated the Father and the Word as
two distinct beings. By the end of the era, Theophilus and
Athenagoras had begun to express a vague, undefined
form of triadism (threefold nature of God), although the
former still used some Oneness expressions. Melito still
48
A History of Christian Doctrine
maintained a predominantly Oneness view of God, but
even some of his terms had become distorted, at least as
they have come down to us.1
God’s oneness. Like the writers of the Post-Apostolic
Age, the Greek Apologists proclaimed that there is one
God, not the many gods of the pagans. In contrast to
Greek and Roman polytheism, they affirmed monotheism.
The doctrine of the Logos. Nevertheless, in this age
we find a compromise of the pure monotheism of the
Bible, particularly with the Apologists’ doctrine of the
Logos. Logos is a Greek term translated as “Word,” and it
represented a very popular Greek philosophical concept
during this time. To the Greeks, the Logos was the reason
of God or the reason by which the universe was sustained.
It was not a god in a personal sense; rather it referred to
the principles by which the universe operated.
Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the apostle
John used this term in his Gospel: “In the beginning was
the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was
God. . . . And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among
us” (John 1:1, 14). As a monotheistic Jew, he used it in
sharp contrast to prevailing pagan philosophies, drawing
instead upon the Old Testament background of God’s
Word as God Himself in action and in self-revelation. (See
Psalm 107:20; Isaiah 55:11.) There was no thought that
the Word was a second person. (See Isaiah 44:24; 45:5-6;
46:5, 9.) While John surely knew how his pagan contemporaries
used the term, under divine inspiration he used it
in a unique way to point both Jews and Gentiles to Jesus
Christ as the one true God manifested in the flesh.
To summarize the doctrine of the Logos in John 1, in
the beginning God existed alone. At the same time, His
49
The Greek Apologists
plan, His thought, His mind, His reason, His expression
was with Him and was Him from eternity past. In the fullness
of time God manifested himself in flesh. His plan,
reason, and thought was expressed or uttered. God
revealed Himself. John thereby identified Jesus as the one
true God of eternity past. He was not an afterthought, but
the eternally foreordained revelation of God Himself.
As an analogy, before someone can speak a word or a
message, the mind must first think it. First it is an unexpressed
word; then, at the right time, it is uttered or
expressed. Similarly God’s mind, reason, plan, or Word
was unexpressed in times past. The Incarnation was
God’s plan from the beginning, but it did not actually take
place until the fullness of time.
The Greek Apologists, particularly Justin, Tatian,
Theophilus, and Athenagoras, seized upon the Logos as a
means of making Christianity palatable to the pagans of
their day. They said, in effect, “The Logos you have been
speculating about for hundreds of years is the basis of our
faith. The Logos that controls the universe is actually
Jesus Christ.” But to do that, instead of using the context
of the Old Testament and the Gospel of John, the Apologists
went to Greek philosophy to develop, define, and
explain their doctrine of the Logos.
To a great extent, the philosophy of the time was
based upon the ideas of the Greek philosopher Plato.
Plato taught that there are two worlds: the good, real
world of ideas or forms and the imperfect, physical world
of phenomena that reflects the world of ideas. The summit
of the world of ideas is the one supreme, perfect God,
who is uninvolved with the evil world of matter and who is
impassible—incapable of emotional feeling and suffering.
50
A History of Christian Doctrine
The world of ideas serves as an intermediary between
God and the physical world.
For people who were educated with these ideas, it was
difficult to believe the biblical teaching that Jesus Christ
is the supreme God Himself who came in flesh to suffer
and die for the redemption of fallen humanity. The Gnostics
dealt with the conflict between Greek philosophy and
Christianity on this point by essentially following the former.
To them God remained impassible but related to the
world through a series of aeons, of which the Creator was
one and the Redeemer was another.
Philo of Alexandria, a Hellenistic Jewish philospher
who lived around the time of Christ, likewise struggled to
reconcile Greek philosophy and Judaism. He had a
motive similar to that of the Apologists: he sought to
make Judaism seem reasonable and acceptable to pagans.
His solution was to proclaim that God is one but also to
speak of the Logos as God’s intermediary in creating the
world.
His concepts were not always clear and were perhaps
even contradictory in places. He referred to the Logos as
the son of God, first-begotten of God, and even a second
god, but he seemed to use these phrases metaphorically,
for he did not describe the Logos as having personality
distinct from God. In essence, he tried to fuse Greek and
Jewish thought by employing the popular Greek concept
of the Logos, identifying it with God’s Word and wisdom
as described in the Old Testament, and using this idea to
explain how the one true God of the Bible could relate to
the world without Greek concepts being violated.
Thus he said God created the world by His Logos,
God speaks to the world by His Logos, and God interacts
51
The Greek Apologists
with people by His Logos. He even found a way to include
the revered Greek philosophers in the picture, stating
that the one true God of the Bible who communicated
with Moses also communicated with Socrates, Plato, and
Aristotle by the Logos. He always stopped short of making
the Logos a second person, however.
The leading Apologists adopted Philo’s approach in
their own attempt to reconcile Greek thought with Christianity,
with a significant new development: they clearly
did make the Logos a second person. Such a notion was
abhorrent to the Jewish mind, steeped in the absolute,
uncompromising monotheism of the Old Testament
(Deuteronomy 6:4-9; Isaiah 44:6-8; 45:21-22). However,
it seemed plausible to Gentiles of the day, including the
Apologists, whose background was polytheism (I Corinthians
8:5).
The Apologists explained that Jesus Christ is not the
supreme God, not the Father, but a second person, the
Logos, who is the same as the Logos of Greek philosophy.
In this way they sought to convince pagans that Christianity
was legitimate as a philosophy and ultimately to show
them that it was actually the best and truest philosophy.
The Apologists’ doctrine of the Logos was a departure
from the strict monotheism of the Bible and of the earlier
Post-Apostolic Age. It marks the beginning of a personal
differentiation in the Godhead among Christian writers.
We find no hint of this Logos doctrine in the earlier writings
of the Post-Apostolic writers, although it bears some
resemblance to the ideas of the Gnostics.
The Apologists equated the Logos with the Son. In
other words, the Son is a second person in the Godhead,
although they preferred to use the term Logos. Here we
52
A History of Christian Doctrine
find for the first time the doctrine of the preexistent Son
expressed clearly and definitely.
In the New Testament, however, Son refers to the
Incarnation. Jesus Christ is the eternal God, and His Spirit
is the Spirit of God from eternity past, but Jesus was
not the Son until He came in flesh in the Incarnation. (See
Luke 1:35; Galatians 4:4; Hebrews 1:5.) God was
revealed in the Son; God came in flesh as the Son (II Corinthians
5:19; I Timothy 3:16).
To put it another way, the Word of God, or the Logos,
was revealed in the Son. Although Jesus is both Logos
and Son, in scriptural terminology there is not an exact
equation of the terms. The Logos is the eternal God Himself,
the eternal Spirit, the eternal divine mind (John 1:1),
but the Son is specifically God coming in the flesh. The
Son of God is the authentic human being who was born of
the virgin Mary, lived, died for our sins, and rose again.
The Apologists’ belief in two persons is not the same
as the modern doctrine of the trinity. In modern trinitarianism,
the divine persons are coequal, but the Apologists
taught that the second person is subordinate to the first
person (subordinationism).
For example, Justin said the Logos is “another God
and Lord subject to the maker of all things. . . . He . . . is
distinct from Him who made all things—numerically, I
mean.” Following the Greek concept of God, Justin told
Trypho, a Jew, that it was not the Father but the Logos
who spoke and appeared to people in the Old Testament:
“You must not imagine that the unbegotten God Himself
came down or went up from any place. For the ineffable
Father and Lord of all . . . remains in His own place,
wherever that is.”2
53
The Greek Apologists
In the beginning, said the Apologists, God existed
alone, but in order to create the world He first caused His
Word to come out of Him. Originally, His Word was inherent
in Him in an impersonal form, but He brought forth
His Word as a second person. This event they identified
as the begetting of the Logos or Son.
Once again the Apologists deviated from the scriptural
use of terminology. In the New Testament the term
“begotten Son” refers to the uniqueness of Jesus Christ,
and Hebrews 1:5-6 specifically relates this concept to the
Incarnation. According to Matthew 1:18-20 and Luke
1:35, Jesus was not conceived by an earthly father, but
the Spirit of God moved upon the womb of the virgin
Mary. Therefore Jesus was literally begotten as a baby at
that time and so was called the Son of God. The begetting
refers to the Incarnation, not the eternal nature of Jesus
Christ. The Apologists changed that understanding, however,
by placing the begetting at a point in time before the
creation of the world.
In sum, the Apologists interpreted John 1:1 much as
Oneness Pentecostals do today. In the beginning the Word
was God Himself, God’s mind, God’s reason inherent
within Him. They deviated from Scripture by saying that
before creation the Word came out of God as a second
person begotten by God.
This belief contains another contrast to modern trinitarianism,
which teaches that the divine persons are
coeternal and that the term “begotten” refers to an eternal,
ongoing process and relationship between the Father
and the Son. Obviously, the Apologists did not think their
second person was coeternal with the Father. The Word
was created or begotten by the Father at a point in time,
54
A History of Christian Doctrine
and He retains an inferiority or subordination in rank.
The Holy Spirit. The Apologists did not explicitly distinguish
a third person. They mentioned the Holy Spirit,
but it is not clear how they viewed the Spirit. At times
they seemed to identify the Spirit as simply the Spirit of
the Father—the Father in emanation, not another person.
At other times they seemed to identify the Spirit as the
Logos, the second person. For instance, Justin said the
Logos inspired the prophets of the Old Testament but also
said the Spirit inspired the prophets.3
A few passages seem to identify the Spirit as a third
person, some sort of created being inferior to the other
two. In one passage Justin identified “the prophetic Spirit”
as a third being to worship, after God and “the Son of
the true God,” while in another place he said that he worshiped
God, the Son, “the other good angels,” and “the
prophetic Spirit.”4 Athenagoras spoke freely of the Father,
Son, and Spirit.
Threefold references. Theophilus was the first
known writer to use the Greek word triados in relation to
God. It is the genitive form of trias, which means “triad”
and was later used to describe the trinity. He simply mentioned
it in passing without trying to teach a doctrine:
“The three days [of creation] which were before the luminaries,
are types of the Triados, of God, and His Word,
and His wisdom.”5 Elsewhere he identified God’s wisdom
with His Word and His Spirit.6 By contrast, trinitarians of
the third and fourth centuries identified wisdom as the
second person.
It is not clear whether Theophilus referred to three
persons, but it does not seem likely in context. He did not
use the term persons (plural) but used person (singular)
55
The Greek Apologists
in a manner incompatible with later trinitarianism, saying
that the Word, which is God’s power and wisdom,
assumed the person of the Father, the person of God.7
Some people say this was the first Christian use of the
word trinity (about 180), but most historians reserve that
dubious distinction for Tertullian in the early third century,
because he clearly did intend three distinct persons.
In this connection, Melito, bishop of Sardis, is quite
intriguing. His writings do not display the same kind of
philosophical thinking as the other Apologists. In fact, he
made strong statements about the oneness of God and the
deity of Jesus Christ. In two surviving fragments he
described Jesus as “God put to death.” Although two
statements of his seem to indicate a preexistent Son, it
does not appear that Melito followed the concepts of the
other Apologists but was much closer in thought to the
Post-Apostolic writers. Unfortunately, we do not have
enough of his writings to make a definitive judgment.
Summary. In summary, the leading Greek Apologists
made a personal distinction between the Father and the
Son, or Logos. They taught a form of binitarianism (two
persons in the Godhead), the second person being subordinate
to the first. There is some indication of a threefold
nature in God, or a third person, especially among two
later Apologists, but they did not develop this idea to the
point that historians consider it to be trinitarianism as we
know it today.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 7:23 am


oh Skiddishfit

the trinity is a lie and it contradicts the bible we both know that

would a trinitarian please gives us your best shot at proving your theory to be true

PS please only us the bible it is the only christian texts that is truly the word of God

sheath1.8


Imotoku

PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:34 am


I don't fully understand what your talking about. Are you trying to say there is no Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I mean they are one, but they are seperate. It is hard for me to explain. Jesus was the son of God, but he was God. As I said though i'm not sure what your saying.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:55 am


Imotoku
I don't fully understand what your talking about. Are you trying to say there is no Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I mean they are one, but they are seperate. It is hard for me to explain. Jesus was the son of God, but he was God. As I said though i'm not sure what your saying.


the God of the OT manifested him self in flesh (jesus christ ), after he ascend in to heaven he returned to live in us as the Holy Ghost

i have a lot of bible to back that up (if you want it )

sheath1.8


Skittishfit

PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 10:43 am


Imotoku
I don't fully understand what your talking about. Are you trying to say there is no Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I mean they are one, but they are seperate. It is hard for me to explain. Jesus was the son of God, but he was God. As I said though i'm not sure what your saying.
trinitarians believe the father, son and holy ghost consist God. oneness tells God consists/ consisted them [manifest].
this report is a specific analysis deriving mainly from John chapter 1. showing this oneness view. and in my sight crushing the trinitary standpoint.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:03 pm


Quote:
Genesis 1:26(NLT)
26Then God said, "Let us make people in our image, to be like ourselves. They will be masters over all life--the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, and all the livestock, wild animals, and small animals.


He didn't say "Let me make people in my own image."

(This is out of a book called Encounter. :Chapter Three: The Triune Man- Spirit, Soul, and Body. Pastor, Wendell Smith)

We are all made in the image of God himself. God is described as having three parts - The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit, but still being one being. We also have three parts to our being.

Quote:
1 Thessalonians 5:23 (NKJV)
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely' and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


1. Spirit
Innermost heart' the core of your being.
--->The Devil will shut the spirit up. -Deception. If the Spirit shuts up God can't speak to you.

A.Because God is spirit, he will speak to your spirit.
B.Strengthen your spirit by worship.

2. Soul
Mind, Will, and Emotions; the personality of your being.
---> Connects with people
---> Intimacy (Not sex, but relationships)

3. Body
Flesh blood and bones; the visible part of your being
---> Animal Nature


**Spirit tells soul what to do. Soul tells Body what to do.**

((All the ---> and A's And B's. Is added notes into the book from my Pastor on a teaching. of This.))

Now thats all from the book and seems useless but now I'm going to explain, why there's a Holy Spirit, Jesus, and Well we all know why there is God, but I'll explain that too.

Ok God is the only one who can forgive Sin. And before Jesus came everyone was sacraficying things to repent for the sin and stuff. It worked but they'd have to come back later and do another sacraficy because it couldn't last. It wasn't worth that much. The only thing that could be sacrafice for man was man. But only God can forgive.

So when Jesus came down to Earth, we all know he's the son of God. But He is God. Jesus came to be the ultimate sacrafice for our sin. Jesus is man and only thing that could be sacraficed for man was man. See how that works? And every read about Jesus forgiving people of sin before he actually died on the the Cross.

Jesus was consider two be the 200% man. 100% Man and 100% God. Since only God can forgive sin.

When Jesus was on the cross that was the sacrafice, man for man. But before he dies he asks God why did he forsake him.

Quote:
Matthew 27:46 (NLT)
At about three o'clock, Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" [ Ps 22:1.]

Mark 15:34 (NLT)
Then, at that time Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?" which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" [ Ps 22:1.]

((And to the reference of Ps. 22:1))

Psalm 22
For the choir director: A psalm of David, to be sung to the tune Doe of the Dawn.
1
My God, my God! Why have you forsaken me?
Why do you remain so distant?
Why do you ignore my cries for help?


Now people asked if Jesus is God why was he asking about being foresaken? At that moment, right before he dies Jesus was sin. He had all sin of the world upon him and God has to turn his back for this sacrafice to happen. But it wasn't Jesus being foresaken, it wsa for us to ask him. Because it was our sin that he became. So we were foresaken. But because Jesus died (Man for man) we are saved and blah blah blah. We aren't foresaken.

Now on to the Holy Spirit. ((This will be a lot of scripture))

Quote:
1 Corinthians 2:9-12 (NLT)
9That is what the Scriptures mean when they say,


"No eye has seen, no ear has heard,
and no mind has imagined
what God has prepared
for those who love him."[d]

10But we know these things because God has revealed them to us by his Spirit, and his Spirit searches out everything and shows us even God's deep secrets. 11No one can know what anyone else is really thinking except that person alone, and no one can know God's thoughts except God's own Spirit. 12And God has actually given us his Spirit (not the world's spirit) so we can know the wonderful things God has freely given us.

Luke 24:49 (NLT)
"And now I will send the Holy Spirit, just as my Father promised. But stay here in the city until the Holy Spirit comes and fills you with power from heaven."


John 14:26 (NLT)
But when the Father sends the Counselor as my representative--and by the Counselor I mean the Holy Spirit--he will teach you everything and will remind you of everything I myself have told you.


John 15:26 (NLT)
"But I will send you the Counselor [ Or Comforter, or Encourager, or Advocate. Greek Paraclete.] --the Spirit of truth. He will come to you from the Father and will tell you all about me.


((These are some notes from a teaching of the Spirit, from Internship))

3 things the Holy Spirit Does:
1. Convicts the world of sin.
2. Teaches of God's righteousness.
3. Teaches about the coming judgement.

Four ways the Holy Spirit will speak to you:
1. Through men and women of God.
Quote:
2 Chronicles 20:20 (NLT)
20Early the next morning the army of Judah went out into the wilderness of Tekoa. On the way Jehoshaphat stopped and said, "Listen to me, all you people of Judah and Jerusalem! Believe in the LORD your God, and you will be able to stand firm. Believe in his prophets, and you will succeed."


2. Through your conscious.
Acts 6:10 (NKJV)
10And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spoke.
3.Through the scriptures.
4. Through Events.

((Not sure if this applies or helps. But it shows the Holy Spirit is a different role than Jesus and God. We've established they are both the same but different. And I've established how the Holy Spirt was the same and how it works, now how it's different.))

The Person of The Holy Spirit:
1. He can be grieved.
Quote:
Ephesians 4:30 (NLT)
30And do not bring sorrow to God's Holy Spirit by the way you live. Remember, he is the one who has identified you as his own, guaranteeing that you will be saved on the day of redemption.

2. He can be insulted.
Quote:
Hebrews 10:29 (NLT)
29Think how much more terrible the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God and have treated the blood of the covenant as if it were common and unholy. Such people have insulted and enraged the Holy Spirit who brings God's mercy to his people.


3.He can be lied to.
Quote:
Acts 5:3: (NLT)
3Then Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart? You lied to the Holy Spirit, and you kept some of the money for yourself.


4.He can be blashemied(sp).
Quote:
Matthew 12:31-32 (NLT)
31"Every sin or blasphemy can be forgiven--except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which can never be forgiven. 32Anyone who blasphemes against me, the Son of Man, can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.


5. He can be resisted.
Quote:
Acts 7:51(NLT)
51"You stubborn people! You are heathen at heart and deaf to the truth. Must you forever resist the Holy Spirit? But your ancestors did, and so do you!


6. He can be tempted.
Quote:
Acts 5:9 (NKJV)
Then Peter said unto her, "How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? Behold, the feet of those who have buried thy husband are at the door and shall carry thee out."

Passage Acts 5:9 (NLT)
9And Peter said, "How could the two of you even think of doing a thing like this--conspiring together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Just outside that door are the young men who buried your husband, and they will carry you out, too."


7. He can be vexed.
Quote:
Isaiah 63:10 (NKJV)
10But they rebelled and vexed His holy Spirit; therefore He was turned to be their enemy, and He fought against them.

Isaiah 63:10 (NLT)
10But they rebelled against him and grieved his Holy Spirit. That is why he became their enemy and fought against them.


8. He can be quenched.
Quote:
1 Thessalonians 5:19 (NKJV)
19Quench not the Spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:19 (NLT)
19Do not stifle the Holy Spirit.


**Side Note: Some of them are NKJV because thats how the scripture was originally given to me, however I perfer NLT. Thats way some have both.**

OnceAgain89
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Skittishfit

PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:14 pm


i did not know you are trinitarian. none the less. first things first.

romans 5:14 should suffice considering the image. we were made in the image of Jesus, the form God planned on manifesting as.

"Let me make people in my own image." no, He did not say that. however, i would like for you to read revelation 4:2.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:41 pm


Never heard of that word in my life nor can I say it porperly just from reading it. Anyways I just follow what I find in the bible and believe what I read in the bible.

Ok anyways

Quote:
Romans 5:14: (NLT)
14they all died anyway--even though they did not disobey an explicit commandment of God, as Adam did. What a contrast between Adam and Christ, who was yet to come!


Quote:
Revelation 4:2: (NLT)
2And instantly I was in the Spirit, and I saw a throne in heaven and someone sitting on it!


Shocked I used NLT (Ha, just joking) Anyways I read them and I honestly don't see how they apply...So umm yea. (Not being rude at all. Maybe I'm missing a connection or something but I don't get it.)

OnceAgain89
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Skittishfit

PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:12 pm


SaraRenee
Never heard of that word in my life nor can I say it porperly just from reading it. Anyways I just follow what I find in the bible and believe what I read in the bible.

Ok anyways

Quote:
Romans 5:14: (NLT)
14they all died anyway--even though they did not disobey an explicit commandment of God, as Adam did. What a contrast between Adam and Christ, who was yet to come!


Quote:
Revelation 4:2: (NLT)
2And instantly I was in the Spirit, and I saw a throne in heaven and someone sitting on it!


Shocked I used NLT (Ha, just joking) Anyways I read them and I honestly don't see how they apply...So umm yea. (Not being rude at all. Maybe I'm missing a connection or something but I don't get it.)
you are currently comparing [in the portion of your post i addressed] the image we were created in to the three aspects trinitarians hold God to be/ consist of [father, son, and holy spirit].
yes, we according to 1 thessalonians 5:23 have spirit, soul, and body. but you are randomly conforming this telling to the three aspects trinitarians hold, being the father, son, and holy spirit.
i ask where is this assertion supported?

revelation 4:2 has to do with your mentioning in genesis it tells "let us". as in referring to more than one persona or aspect of God, in suporting of the tinrity. however, in revelation 4:2 it is told one sits on the throne.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:38 pm


The doctrine of the Trinity -- that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are each equally and eternally the one true God -- is admittedly difficult to comprehend, and yet is the very foundation of Christian truth. Although skeptics may ridicule it as a mathematical impossibility, it is nevertheless a basic doctrine of Scripture as well as profoundly realistic in both universal experience and in the scientific understanding of the cosmos.

Both Old and New Testaments teach the Unity and the Trinity of the Godhead. The idea that there is only one God, who created all things, is repeatedly emphasized in such Scriptures as Isaiah 45:18:

"For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; ...I am the Lord; and there is none else."

A New Testament example is James 2:19:

"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well; the devils also believe, and tremble."

The three persons of the Godhead are, at the same time, noted in such Scriptures as Isaiah 48:16:

"I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, there am I; and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me."

The speaker in this verse is obviously God, and yet He says He has been sent both by The Lord God (that is, the Father) and by His Spirit (that is, the Holy Spirit).

The New Testament doctrine of the Trinity is evident in such a verse as John 15:26, where the Lord Jesus said:

"But when the Comforter is come whom I will send unto you from the Father, He shall testify of me."

Then there is the baptismal formula:

"baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 28:19).

One name (God) -- yet three names!

JESUS -- That Jesus, as the only-begotten Son of God, actually claimed to be God, equal with the Father, is clear from numerous Scriptures. For example, He said:

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" Revelation 1:8.

HOLY SPIRIT -- Some cults falsely teach that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal divine influence of some kind, but the Bible teaches that He is a real person, just as are the Father and the Son. Jesus said:

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak; and he will show you things to come" (John 16:13).

TRI-UNITY -- The teaching of the Bible concerning the Trinity might be summarized thus. God is a Tri-unity, with each Person of the Godhead equally and fully and eternally God. Each is necessary, and each is distinct, and yet all are one. The three Persons appear in a logical, causal order. The Father is the unseen, omnipresent Source of all being, revealed in and by the Son, experienced in and by the Holy Spirit. The Son proceeds from the Father, and the Spirit from the Son. With reference to God's creation, the Father is the Thought behind it, the Son is the Word calling it forth, and the Spirit is the Deed making it a reality.


We "see" God and His great salvation in the Son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ, then "experience" their reality by faith, through the indwelling presence of His Holy Spirit.

Though these relationships seem paradoxical, and to some completely impossible, they are profoundly realistic, and their truth is ingrained deep in man's nature. Thus, men have always sensed first the truth that God must be "out there," everywhere present and the First Cause of all things, but they have corrupted this intuitive knowledge of the Father into pantheism and ultimately into naturalism.

Similarly, men have always felt the need to "see" God in terms of their own experience and understanding, but this knowledge that God must reveal Himself has been distorted into polytheism and idolatry. Men have thus continually erected "models" of God, sometimes in the form of graven images, sometimes even in the form of philosophical systems purporting to represent ultimate reality.

Finally, men have always known that they should be able to have communion with their Creator and to experience His presence "within." But this deep intuition of the Holy Spirit has been corrupted into various forms of false mysticism and fanaticism, and even into spiritism and demonism. Thus, the truth of God's tri-unity is ingrained in man's very nature, but he has often distorted it and substituted a false god in its place.

Authors: Henry Morris and Martin Clark (excerpted from The Bible Has the Answer by Morris and Clark, published by Master Books, 1987).




Yes I believe in One God and the Trinity is representative of One God. Jesus is God ( who became flesh, was crucified for our sins, rose to life again and ascended into heaven), the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God (comforter, wise counselor, helper). I find the bible very clear on this.

Allythea


Skittishfit

PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:41 pm


er, before i tackle your wall of text, why not tackle mine? it is the basis of the debate [in this thread]. have you read it?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:44 pm


Skiddishfit
SaraRenee
Never heard of that word in my life nor can I say it porperly just from reading it. Anyways I just follow what I find in the bible and believe what I read in the bible.

Ok anyways

Quote:
Romans 5:14: (NLT)
14they all died anyway--even though they did not disobey an explicit commandment of God, as Adam did. What a contrast between Adam and Christ, who was yet to come!


Quote:
Revelation 4:2: (NLT)
2And instantly I was in the Spirit, and I saw a throne in heaven and someone sitting on it!


Shocked I used NLT (Ha, just joking) Anyways I read them and I honestly don't see how they apply...So umm yea. (Not being rude at all. Maybe I'm missing a connection or something but I don't get it.)
you are currently comparing [in the portion of your post i addressed] the image we were created in to the three aspects trinitarians hold God to be/ consist of [father, son, and holy spirit].
yes, we according to 1 thessalonians 5:23 have spirit, soul, and body. but you are randomly conforming this telling to the three aspects trinitarians hold, being the father, son, and holy spirit.
i ask where is this assertion supported?

revelation 4:2 has to do with your mentioning in genesis it tells "let us". as in referring to more than one persona or aspect of God, in suporting of the tinrity. however, in revelation 4:2 it is told one sits on the throne.

Wasn't randomly conforming anything...That was quoted out the Encounter book and was taught on. It it went with 1. 2. and 3. That was explaining the the three parts of you. Which is what the whole quoting of the Encounter was.

OnceAgain89
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Allythea

PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:49 pm


Yes, I read your wall of text. It is very intellectual and very eloquent, but as a working mom I may not have time to quote every last sentence to debate. I will try. I hope.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:54 pm


the father son relation is symbolistic of just that, a father son relationship. but it has been taken too seriously according to trinitary view.

Jesus was 100% man and God. 1 Timothy 3:16, Colossians 2:9.
according to john 2:25 Jesus would not have people testify of man, for he knows what is in man. part of his being in the flesh, and why he was referred to as the lesser, the son. though once again He was God manifest in the flesh, and is still God matthew 28:18.
He according to matthew 28:18 has been given all power in heaven and earth. only God has all power.

according to colossians 1:12-17 everything was made for him and by him. hebrews 1:1-3, helps in scope as well.

ephesians 1:4, before the foundation of the world was set, God chose us in Jesus. Logos can come to mean plan. tieing into john chapter 1. and the writing above from David K. Bernard.

Skittishfit


Skittishfit

PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:03 pm


SaraRenee
Skiddishfit
SaraRenee
Never heard of that word in my life nor can I say it porperly just from reading it. Anyways I just follow what I find in the bible and believe what I read in the bible.

Ok anyways

Quote:
Romans 5:14: (NLT)
14they all died anyway--even though they did not disobey an explicit commandment of God, as Adam did. What a contrast between Adam and Christ, who was yet to come!


Quote:
Revelation 4:2: (NLT)
2And instantly I was in the Spirit, and I saw a throne in heaven and someone sitting on it!


Shocked I used NLT (Ha, just joking) Anyways I read them and I honestly don't see how they apply...So umm yea. (Not being rude at all. Maybe I'm missing a connection or something but I don't get it.)
you are currently comparing [in the portion of your post i addressed] the image we were created in to the three aspects trinitarians hold God to be/ consist of [father, son, and holy spirit].
yes, we according to 1 thessalonians 5:23 have spirit, soul, and body. but you are randomly conforming this telling to the three aspects trinitarians hold, being the father, son, and holy spirit.
i ask where is this assertion supported?

revelation 4:2 has to do with your mentioning in genesis it tells "let us". as in referring to more than one persona or aspect of God, in suporting of the tinrity. however, in revelation 4:2 it is told one sits on the throne.

Wasn't randomly conforming anything...That was quoted out the Encounter book and was taught on. It it went with 1. 2. and 3. That was explaining the the three parts of you. Which is what the whole quoting of the Encounter was.
followed by this "We are all made in the image of God himself. God is described as having three parts - The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit, but still being one being. We also have three parts to our being." it looked like thessalonians 5:23 was being compaired to God [trinitarian scope] in the three designated manifestations [father, son, and holy spirit].
sorry for the misunderstanding.
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