Welcome to Gaia! ::

When, exactly, did you join? Things have been quite for a while; But that's because a lot of people get sick of talking about abortion after a while.
What is this, a war? For one thing, not all of those in the Pro-Life guild are conservative, so watch who you're shooting at. toxic lollipop, one of our best debators and most passionate members is against the War in Iraq, Anti-Death Penalty, and Pro-Gay rights.

And I, though I have not been debating for quite a while, have -never- lost my passion for the subject. Just my willingness to argue in a place where the other side sometimes doesn't care whether they are attacking you or the issue.

Not to mention, -we- are the ones who started trying to be civil. They never said, "Let's be civil about this now, come on, be reasonable". They were fine with arguing aggressively, and destroying character behind closed doors-No offense intended to them, but that is at least the way they were before we started communicating with them.
-We- decided to start being civil, because it's hard for someone to be rude to you when you are being respectful of them. -We- started it, because we were tired of having debates turned into yell-out sessions, and insults. -We- wrote that rule into our guild, because we were tired of our new members being kicked down for stupid arguments.

Look, this is -not- "real life". Yes, the issue is real and important. Yes, if we can turn some Pro-Choicers into Pro-Lifers, that will be a very good thing. However, it doesn't happen very often on Gaia. And it's not really the reason for debating. The reason for debating is to reafirm and readjust our opinions and knowledge of the subject, so that we can better defend it in real life. -That's- where most people are going to be turned. When you are talking to someone face-to-face, it's much harder to turn them into a picture of an avatar and a name mentally.

In person, you can see the passion by the body language, not just by what they say, and how eloquently they say it. But online? Please. It's easy to say, "Well that person's an idiot because they don't know how to type," Or just to say, "Well that person's an idiot because they hold that view." When you meet someone face to face and talk about an issue, it's much harder to assume everyone on the other side of the fence is a moron, and to just dismiss everything they say that way.

And that's also where civility comes into play. I know for a fact that it's a lot harder to treat someone like an idiot when they are respectful of you and your opinions. It's a lot easier to change some small part of their views when they respect you. I know; I've done it. I have a friend in the Pro-Choice guild. She is the person I enjoy debating with most, because she doesn't spend half the time sneering at me, so I learn a lot more about her point of view. I learn a lot of arguments, and I learn how to argue against them.

When I see people talking about how we shouldn't be civil to -any- group, be it Pro-Choicers or homosexuals, it gets my blood boiling. What kind of world would this be if we all figured things were easier to solve with a well-placed punch then with respectful debating/diplomacy/conversation?

Do you think that we are losing? I think that for our purposes, even just a continuing fight is a good thing. As long as people see that we are here, and that we are, for the most part, normal people, -not bloody radicals- who go and bomb clinics... Then we will be pushing the edge of doubt towards them. As long as we get non-Christians into high-profile positions, and show people that we aren't just a bunch of bible-thumpers, screaming at the other side.
...And maybe they'll think you are a bible-thumper and block you. Look, I've had times when I tried to talk to Pro-Choicers civily, and they assumed I was another bible-thumper, telling them, "abrtion r rong! gd sys soo!" To keep from being treated as unwashed masses, as the lesser group of people, we have to prove that we aren't all that way.
It's a shame that there are people on here who still think that "fighting spirit" involves going straight up to them, and yelling in their faces about how they're wrong. People like you who can't understand why we are being civil and nice make me much madder then any Pro-Choicer has ever done, because you work towards ruining what I spent so much time and care creating. You try to break down the defenses of Pro-Lifers all over Gaia that have been created slowly and careful by me and mine. The defense being that Pro-Choicers will think twice before assuming that every Pro-Lifer debating is a stupid Christian who doesn't know any more then that Christians are against abortion, so they are going to argue against it.

Okies, I see that you guys have this covered so I won't attempt to repeat anything that's already been said. Just to add however I blocked the thread not because of the words used (I was originally planning on editing the post and removing those words.) however when I examined it more closely I realized the entire thread was for people to post about specific people.

Since this is blatently against the rules I locked the thread.

Also one of my best friends, Danielle. (The girl with the daughter, Kaylee.) is pro-choice so I don't appreciate the name calling on a personal level as well as a 'lets all be civil' level.

Yes changing minds is a good thing, however we're never going to do that if all you do is act completely horrible to the other side. Who wants to be on a side that acts like a bunch of assholes? Yes our points should win people over however they're not as likely to be won over if we present ourselves as narrow minded, bigoted, slanderous, jerks who can't deal with people having opposing opinions.

I joined about 8 months ago, I think.
If people are sick of talking about abortion, that's no reason to restrict the amount that other people talk about it.


I don't know any radical liberals who are pro-life. By definition, they shouldn't be. And no, this isn't actually a war, but it should be fought like it is. There's more here at stake than how good you look on the forums.

There's a difference between going through the motions, and being passionate.

So it was our idea?
They can only destroy character if there's something to destroy. If they try, you can easily counter their destruction. There's no reason not to be aggressive when you're debating, and if they take offense to it, let them refute it. Don't try to play the "let's be nice" game.

New people will still make stupid arguments. And by the way: when someone actually does the whole yell-out thing, or the insults, they lose the debate. Just make sure it isn't our members who do it.


So you think that somehow, in real life, we're going to win by being limp-wristed? You don't persuade people to change their minds by being nice, you change their minds by presenting a side and making it stronger than theirs. Sometimes, this requires pointing out flaws in or flat-out destroying their side.

If you present a tumescent argument, then your mission is accomplished. You won't turn the people who are radical pro-deathers, but you might turn some of the people who were neutral or maybe just "a litte" pro-death.

But there are so many idiotic points that are constantly thrown at us. Ever think that if we actually call them for what they are, they'll try to bring up the standard of some of their arguments sometimes?


I'm not substituting physical violence for debating. I'm simply substituting passive debating for assertive debating.


Well, yeah. If you disagree, explain why the pro-choicers have twice as many people in their guild.

No, it isn't. A continuing fight where we start pulling around and stop pulling our punches is a good thing. Just going through the motions is not a good thing.

So you believe Christians aren't entitled to their opinions? Sure you want to go down that road?


I don't think I mentioned God in my argument anywhere. So if they think I'm a bible-thumper, it's their ignorance (am I allowed to actually say that?).


There is no yelling on the internet.
I wouldn't be against calling someone pro-death, because to me, that's exactly what they are. I also wouldn't be against calling the stupid points some pro-choicers make "stupid".



I didn't even mention Christianity and you've gone on a tangent about it. Even if all pro-lifers were Christian, they have as much right to an opinion as everyone else. If the pro-choicers can't respect that theists have as much right to an opinion as they do, and (until they can disprove the existence of God, which isn't gonna happen) their point is just as valid as the pro-choicers.

So? Specific people are against the survival of a fetus. If they ride under the pro-choice banner, why can't they be subject to pro-choice criticism?

Can someone explain the rules?

If Danielle, your friend, is that person I was talking about, that's pretty hypocritical. I don't have nearly so much an issue with the occasionally occuring pro-choicer who doesn't call pro-lifers "stupid" as the average pro-choicer who does.


I'm not saying to use faulty debating tactics. I'm suggesting we not be afraid to get our hands dirty, to say words like "foolish" and "stupid" when they are appropriate (and we all know that they often are), and so forth. Who cares if they bash back? We already won the argument through debating. If they want to call us stupid, let's respond in kind. Otherwise, we look like we are despirited and won't defend ourselves. People are attracted to sides which appear to have the most strength stylistically, and people relate strenght with forcefullness and assertiveness. Regardless of your substance, you just won't win on the internet without an aggressive style.

I disagree. Most people, in their struggle to be right and not admit to being wrong, will become MORE convinced that they are right out of pride. Even if they feel that you are right, they will never admit it publicly, and continue to argue against it (though not as strongly, maybe). Why insult someone? There's no point.
You say this as if I hadn't....I did. That's not WHY I'm polite, I've always tried to stay civil. I just refuse to make attacks after going through that. It was very immature of them and I don't want to go to that level.
Many prochoicers don't agree with abortion but think that the government shouldn't take away a woman's freedom to her body. Many prochoicers have the stance that abortion is disgusting but that the government shouldn't regulate what a woman does to her body. Pro-death doesn't work any more than anti-choice works for us.
I can safely say that you are....the negative reaction most prolifers have to the prochoice poem is (once you get through it, I mean, the way they talk about a human isn't that great, but it sums up how they feel and most people in here are used to it from intelligent people) "and if you say you are prolife, we think you are stupid." That part directly calls prolifers stupid. It is an insult. It is an emotional attack seeking an emotional response. Not a reasonable one, an emotional one. If you insult people, you're right down on the level of that signature.

As much as I hate to say it, appearances matter in this case. The things you say don't just represent you, they represent what you stand for and what you believe. People arguing for prochoice so strongly aren't going to have their minds changed by me. People reading and watching someone troll and me respond cooly with logical, not emotional responses of "Oh wittle baby!" that they so like to say is all we have on our side, the people reading will realize, well, hmm. On the one hand, "Nan ne Nan ne boo boo! You stupidhead!" and on the other, "Think what you will but this is how it is," which one is the person most likely to take seriously? We don't look like we're defending ourselves by responding in kind. We look like five year olds.

How you handle yourself with other people matters most when it comes to the people watching you. People on the fence trying to decide. If you insult someone, the people on the sidelines will be inclined to disregard your stance and feel sorry for the other person. You CAN be aggressive without using harsh words and insults.

Catholics actually had much different beliefs at the beginning than they do now... That is when they were the original Christians, which is what I have a lot of questions on.

Anyway, this isn't the guild to debate on religion.

Right, I missed these.


Did you just insult me? How dare you claim I am just going through the motions? If this is what you think of everyone who disagrees with you, then I have nothing more to say to you.