Disturbing Irony...

[Sanguvixen]

I thought the rest of you might find this experiance interesting.

I work a job that has me going with a group of people to different Boys & Girls clubs, putting on plays, and handling animals for the kids to touch.

At our second site we came across something strange. As we were busy setting up...the adult was having them go through a rather strange anthem. Each kid was being forced(about 120 in all ages of 6 to 13) to say this first: "I believe in God."

The second part goes this way : "I believe in freedom to worship."

The third part goes this way: "I believe in our founding fathers."

The third part goes "I believe in tolerance despite race or religion."

The the fourth part goes "I believe in the Constitution."

It goes on to mention Constitutional Right, and the 10 Comandmants.

What gets me is that the papers they have pasted all over the place state that it is a place where all children can be despite race, sex, age, and religion. They were taking any kids who didn't say part of the anthem and setting them aside...to call parents I heard them say.

Am I the only one who finds this wrong, and disturbing, and ironic?

For those who need discussion tags:

Discuss the above situation..
Discuss your reaction..
Discuss similar experiances you might have had..
Discuss why religion needs to be seperate from school, and children's clubs.

 

[Tenth Speed Writer]

No kidding.

*Resists carrying onto a rant about the Boy/Girl Scouts of America*  

[Azaleya]

and those are the kind of people who should be shot.
this reminds me a little of the debate over the pledge of alligiance---the part about "one nation under god" and the separation of church and state.  

[Sanguvixen]

How are people supposed to be tolerant and open-minded when they spend thier entire young life being in a hippocritical, close minded world?

How? Do you know what scares me?

What if the children of an Athiest, or some other secular belief were to be in such a position? Imagine how his or her peers would ostricize them, for not believing in god.

Here...is the grounds for trouble. Care to disagree?

This is exactly why Church and State need to be seperated. This is exactly why religion does not belong being taught in Public Schools, nore included in public programs.

The lady who was doing this also placed much emphisis when getting the children to repeat on lines 1 and 2.

 

[Tenth Speed Writer]

I don't think the problem is so much that religion is injected into public programs as much as it that several of them *force* it.

America is about 70% Christian, or at least I'm so told. It's pleasing to the vast majority to see their children brought up in an environment that they believe represents their traditional morals and values, hence why there is so much resistance to ripping religion out of things that some parents have depended upon to teach their children for so long.

Honestly, I don’t see much problem with “a bit of religion” in these things, so long as it’s not something constantly preached and/or enforced by discipline. A problem lies here as well, since groups large enough to draw attention rarely have the resources, be it human or financial, to watch over every single activity and group individually.
(Ever tried to micromanage ‘lings in starcraft?)

As it is, many Americans would strongly and, in their eyes, rightfully oppose the secularization of these things.  

[Lesilrok]

Sanguvixen would that be Boys and Girls Clubs of America(if so which one? I used to work at the boys and girls club too) or the Boys Scouts of America.

addseale2-The Boys Scouts of America discriminate against atheists and gays.

The Girl Scouts of America on the other hand are much more wiser and at first they did not like the fact atheists preside in their membership but time passed by and they opened their eyes so they do not discriminate and accept girls of all creeds (whether they have one or not) and sexual orientation. It was the James Randall case of '92 that won them that.

I wish the boy scouts would open their eyes too.

Here is the rule posted against atheists and agnostics

Boy's Scout of America Jerks

"The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, ‘On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law.’ The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members."

If this pisses you off find out the rule against homosexuals because they play around with words to win their case.  

[Muaethia]

Quote:

"I believe in God."

The second part goes this way : "I believe in freedom to worship."

That completely contradicts itself. Freedom to worship also means freedom NOT to worship, to believe as one wants.

Is that the Girl Guides and the Boy Scouts?

Here, they are seperated into age groups. I'm not 100% sure on the exact ages in this, but it goes something like this:

Beavers- boys aged 4/5 (school starters) to 7
Cubs- boys aged 8 to 11
Boy Scouts- boys aged 12 to 16

Rainbows- girls aged 4 to 6
Brownies- girls aged 7 to 10
Girl Guides- girls aged 11 to 16

The founder was a bit of a wanker, apparently. Lord baten-powell. Oh dear, a lord and a hyphonated name, mostly = posh, convervative, religious old toff.

I was a brownie and a guide. I gave up guides at the age of 12, realising that I was being a hypocrite saying the 'promise "I promise I will do my best, to love my God, to serve my queen and my country, to help other people and to serve the guide law".

It was a christian-based organisation, but we wern't taught about the evils of homosexuality and atheism. Rather, it was assumed that we all believed in God, but you couldn't join without saying the 'promise'. They do, however, accept people from all cultural backgrounds, andreligions that believe in God. And most of the guide leaders are pretty liberal, anyway, most will be like "yep, atheists come, whatever".

It didn't used to be like that. My baptist grandma was a guide leader, once.

We have girl scouts too, but it's mostly 'guides' for girls.

That boy scouts thing is awful! How dare they assume that Atheists are, as they are implying, second class citizans? I hate it when people assume that Atheists are all horrible, selfish, uncaring people.  

[Sanguvixen]

shinobikun

Sanguvixen would that be Boys and Girls Clubs of America(if so which one? I used to work at the boys and girls club too) or the Boys Scouts of America.

addseale2-The Boys Scouts of America discriminate against atheists and gays.

The Girl Scouts of America on the other hand are much more wiser and at first they did not like the fact atheists preside in their membership but time passed by and they opened their eyes so they do not discriminate and accept girls of all creeds (whether they have one or not) and sexual orientation. It was the James Randall case of '92 that won them that.

I wish the boy scouts would open their eyes too.

Here is the rule posted against atheists and agnostics

Boy's Scout of America Jerks

"The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, ‘On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law.’ The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members."

If this pisses you off find out the rule against homosexuals because they play around with words to win their case.

Yes...that would be correct. The Boys and Girls Club of America....is where I witnessed this.

 

[Sanguvixen]

addseale2

I don't think the problem is so much that religion is injected into public programs as much as it that several of them *force* it.

America is about 70% Christian, or at least I'm so told. It's pleasing to the vast majority to see their children brought up in an environment that they believe represents their traditional morals and values, hence why there is so much resistance to ripping religion out of things that some parents have depended upon to teach their children for so long.

Honestly, I don’t see much problem with “a bit of religion” in these things, so long as it’s not something constantly preached and/or enforced by discipline. A problem lies here as well, since groups large enough to draw attention rarely have the resources, be it human or financial, to watch over every single activity and group individually.
(Ever tried to micromanage ‘lings in starcraft?)

As it is, many Americans would strongly and, in their eyes, rightfully oppose the secularization of these things.

Let me put it to you why such a thing in this organization is a problem.

I've been a member of a boys and girls club before. I've also been a member of a camp that was based in a military area.

You have no idea how cruel children can be to other children because of differing faith. Especially in my area. Now if the area is well supvised...and the kids are being supervised...there is no problem.

I've seen kids bullied, beaten up, and even isolated by other peers as young as 6 because one kid is of a different religion, or his or her parents are athiest.

Yet most of these clubs that I visit are ill supvised...and the kids run rampent doing whatever they please. Basically all they are there for is to be watched by a bunch of teenagers who are paid to babysit 70+ kids.

However what disturbed me in the situation I was witnessing was how the lady laid emphsis of those few select pro-god related lines. They were made to say it over and over again. Something doesn't sit well with me seeing that. Plus...they were holding the Boys and Girls Club inside a public school that was vacant because of the Summer Holidays.

The Boys and Girls clubs are supposed to be a "Positive Place for Kids."

It is supposed to help them gain the highest values, and morals, and help them find a way to be tolerant of others differences.

How can they expect to accomplish that if the lines they are being made to memorize contradict each other?

I believe in god.
I believe in freedom of worship.
I believe in the Constitution.
I believe in the Ten Commandments.

Each pair contradicts each other burning_eyes

How...if they cannot supervise the children expect them to act in a way that promotes tolerance? How can they even promote tolerance if they can't even get the lines straight?

 

[Lesilrok]

If you do not mind me asking which Boys and Girls Club because I used to be a member at the boys and girls club of america and then I became the Tech Coordinator for their comupter lab. I worked at the boys and girls club of Hollywood and I along with 5 other employees were open Atheists and we taught kids to be accepting and that freedom of religion also means freedom from religion. we did not have anything like that (well lets say I had inside info because I was the most liked employee. The BGA of hollywood never commit that type of behavior with employees and the kids. But that is just one club out of hundreds.  

[Sanguvixen]

shinobikun

If you do not mind me asking which Boys and Girls Club because I used to be a member at the boys and girls club of america and then I became the Tech Coordinator for their comupter lab. I worked at the boys and girls club of Hollywood and I along with 5 other employees were open Atheists and we taught kids to be accepting and that freedom of religion also means freedom from religion. we did not have anything like that (well lets say I had inside info because I was the most liked employee. The BGA of hollywood never commit that type of behavior with employees and the kids. But that is just one club out of hundreds.

I didn't know there were catagories...I just know it was a Boys and Girls club, and one of the ones held in a vacant Public School Building. We go to so many over the course of the summer that it is hard to keep track.

How the clubs are run really depends upon area. Some areas have really rowdy kids, and the adults do nothing. However there are a few in one city that is really well looked after, and the kids are almost always well behaved. Once every two days it seems we hit a not so good one.

Quite a few however have...problems. This was the first time I'd come across the line thing, which is why I thought it would be interesting to post it here. I'm pretty certain most of the clubs would not be so fool-hardy.

However behind the scenes of a few locations the last time I was with this group(two years ago, I don't remember the location)...I witnessed an adult telling off a few children for not abiding by the rules...and cited the bible in his/her lecture. I saw that...perhaps three times.

However...the bottom line is...such a thing is really unacceptable. That brings on a bigger question.

Where is the line to be drawn with Church and State? Where does it begin and where does it end?

Freedom to Worship is good and all, but in a Boys and Girls club that is supposed to be open to all? Inside public buildings? Before crowds that are mourning for the death of soldier? In malls? In the work place?

What do you guys think? What places are appropriate for worship, and what places arn't?

 

[Yami_Ichi]

That's what the Christians try to do.

I was sitting in my church one day, as I go out of respect for my parents, and I was horrified as my pastor continued talking.
"We need to get to the children before they go into their teens. Once they hit their teens, it will be increasingly difficult to convince them that God's way is the right way."

At that moment, I had to go and sit in the basement for a few minutes to calm down and not jump up and say something.

The chuches do these sorts of things. They look for ways, the smallest ways possible, to spark an interest to learn more about God or some other religion. They give small hints, like the saying "I believe in God", to make the children want to ask questions and learn more. Then, they can direct them to a church where "you can fullfil your meaning in life". And if the children are still at the age where they are still accepting to everything, they accept God.

That is what my pastor told me. "Before children hit their teens is when they are most likely to believe in anything." So basically, churches and christians are not giving the children a choice as to what they believe, they are getting them while they can to change their minds into believing in God.

Sickens me...

 

[Sanguvixen]

Yami_Ichi

That's what the Christians try to do.

I was sitting in my church one day, as I go out of respect for my parents, and I was horrified as my pastor continued talking.
"We need to get to the children before they go into their teens. Once they hit their teens, it will be increasingly difficult to convince them that God's way is the right way."

At that moment, I had to go and sit in the basement for a few minutes to calm down and not jump up and say something.

The chuches do these sorts of things. They look for ways, the smallest ways possible, to spark an interest to learn more about God or some other religion. They give small hints, like the saying "I believe in God", to make the children want to ask questions and learn more. Then, they can direct them to a church where "you can fullfil your meaning in life". And if the children are still at the age where they are still accepting to everything, they accept God.

That is what my pastor told me. "Before children hit their teens is when they are most likely to believe in anything." So basically, churches and christians are not giving the children a choice as to what they believe, they are getting them while they can to change their minds into believing in God.

Sickens me...

Yes it is sickening.

I don't care if a person wants to be religious. However, a person should be allowed the choice. If they are brainwashed from the beginning they have no choice. They'll scream they choose to believe on thier own, but in reality they are deluded. I want that to stop. I want them to stop brainwashing children, so that each individual can choose what they want to believe.

Yep...they want to keep the chain going. If they allow the children to develop and decide on thier own.... gonk *Le Gasp* gonk ....It might be a break in the chain! A loose connection, a link that is most difficult to reweld!

 

[Yami_Ichi]

Sanguvixen

Yami_Ichi

That's what the Christians try to do.

I was sitting in my church one day, as I go out of respect for my parents, and I was horrified as my pastor continued talking.
"We need to get to the children before they go into their teens. Once they hit their teens, it will be increasingly difficult to convince them that God's way is the right way."

At that moment, I had to go and sit in the basement for a few minutes to calm down and not jump up and say something.

The chuches do these sorts of things. They look for ways, the smallest ways possible, to spark an interest to learn more about God or some other religion. They give small hints, like the saying "I believe in God", to make the children want to ask questions and learn more. Then, they can direct them to a church where "you can fullfil your meaning in life". And if the children are still at the age where they are still accepting to everything, they accept God.

That is what my pastor told me. "Before children hit their teens is when they are most likely to believe in anything." So basically, churches and christians are not giving the children a choice as to what they believe, they are getting them while they can to change their minds into believing in God.

Sickens me...

Yes it is sickening.

I don't care if a person wants to be religious. However, a person should be allowed the choice. If they are brainwashed from the beginning they have no choice. They'll scream they choose to believe on thier own, but in reality they are deluded. I want that to stop. I want them to stop brainwashing children, so that each individual can choose what they want to believe.

Yep...they want to keep the chain going. If they allow the children to develop and decide on thier own.... gonk *Le Gasp* gonk ....It might be a break in the chain! A loose connection, a link that is most difficult to reweld!

Ah... yeah. It's kind of like me.

I was raised in a Christian home. So, obviously as christianity was the only religion I was introduced to since I was an infant, I went to christianity when I was old enough to make 'decisions' on my own. But when I was old enough to really make my own decisions, I saw all the problems that were in the path I was taking.

Now I can see what the churches are doing, and how they get people to come to their side. They brainwash them since infantry so they can get into their minds while they're still apt to believe in anything!

If you ask me, that shows that they KNOW their religion isn't true, but they want others to come to their side because they want people to feel a meaning in life, and to feel loved. Which is all religion really is to me, a way to feel you belong or a way to feel loved.

 

[Lesilrok]

Well at one point in their life theists will lie to themselves knowingly or unknowingly about their belief system. That is something everyone should know but mostly will deny or unwillingly point it out.