You are wrong.

[Atarashi No Sensei]

In your heart, zz1000zz, you do know what is a sin and what isn't. That's that.  

[ElenaMason]

-Sunset Wahine-

In your heart, zz1000zz, you do know what is a sin and what isn't. That's that.

not trying to beat around the bush but the heart is the most deceitful thing. many things that we would consider wrong biblically are most of the time considered right in our eyes.

years ago i considered homosexuality an okay thing as well as being neutral on the idea of abortion. but when i finally studied it more thouroughly only THEN did i really see the truth.

so no....we dont always know the right things even if we think we do.

also in response to this thread might i suggest some verses:

Romans 1:26-32
Luke 16
Matthew 25:41

these regard "unnatural acts" aka homosexuality  

[ElenaMason]

zz1000zz

First, if anything God made woman for man. Nowhere does it say man was made for woman. If we are going to discuss God's word, it would be best if we tried not to misrepresent God's word.

More importantly, nowhere does this passage say homosexuality is a sin. Even if we accept that "God made woman for man," that does not inherently make homosexuality a sin.

*laughs* oh man NEITHER does it say that man was made for a man. in fact there are versus, ones ip osted above that sya the EXACT OPPOSITE. a man shall NOT lay with another man.

that should be more than literall words for you. homosexuality is also considered an ABOMINATION.

n 1: a person who is loathsome or disgusting 2: hate coupled with disgust [syn: abhorrence, detestation, execration, loathing, odium] 3: an action that is vicious or vile; an action that arouses disgust or abhorence.

i dont know about you, but even iif it doesnt say directly that homosexuality is a sin, God is CLEARLY speaking of how he considers it a vile abominated action. that in no way is a positive light on the issue. the bible speaks NOWHERE of it being a good thing. it is unnatural and wrong in his eyes.

 

[Atarashi No Sensei]

SaintChaos

-Sunset Wahine-

In your heart, zz1000zz, you do know what is a sin and what isn't. That's that.

not trying to beat around the bush but the heart is the most deceitful thing. many things that we would consider wrong biblically are most of the time considered right in our eyes.

years ago i considered homosexuality an okay thing as well as being neutral on the idea of abortion. but when i finally studied it more thouroughly only THEN did i really see the truth.

so no....we dont always know the right things even if we think we do.

also in response to this thread might i suggest some verses:

Romans 1:26-32
Luke 16
Matthew 25:41

these regard "unnatural acts" aka homosexuality

Different people do and know different things. (Thanks for giving out more verses.)  

[LadyAmbrosia]

Tangled Up In Blue

LadyAmbrosia

Such as?

• The word arsenkoites in 1 Corinthians 6:9, frequently translated as 'homosexual offenders' or some such even though the exact meaning of the word is as-yet unknown.
  
• The word malakos, meaning 'soft', but often translated as 'homosexual', despite there being little valid reason to do so.
  
• The last 12 verses of the Gospel of Mark, which some believe was the first of the synoptic gospels, are considered an interpolation and not part of the original document. This would obviously have doctrinal ramifications for certain charismatic churches.
  
• The story of the adulteress in John 8 is considered an interpolation, being found in different places in different versions of the gospel (and one time even turning up in a copy of the Gospel of Luke.
  The afore-mentioned changes to 1 Timothy 3:16 wherein OΣ was mistaken for and abbreviation of ΘEOΣ.
  
• The difficulty of figuring out based on Paul's epistles just what the author actually believes about the applicability of the OT Law (reasonable people differ on this question).

K, so I just read 1 Corinthians 6.9 and it doesn't say anything specifically about homosexuality, but it does talk about abusing sex... and being a slave to ones whims. Which is what I think homosexuality is. It feels good, so they do it. Just like pre-marital sex. But that is my opinion, I can see how you could take it differently. But I still think you'd be wrong.

I'm going to ask my pastor about the other stuff though. I'll tell you what he says, I'll probly know by tomorrow...  

[Tarrou]

SaintChaos

that should be more than literall words for you. homosexuality is also considered an ABOMINATION.

As is eating shrimp, according to the ceremonial laws. The Hebrew word toevah (translated in the KJV as 'abomination') doesn't necessarily mean that something is inherently wrong, but rather that it is foreign to the Jews. Indeed, in Exodus, Moses, when speaking with Pharaoh, describes the Jews' rituals as toevah to the Egyptians, meaning that the Jew's rituals are foreign to the Egyptians. There is no intrinsic moral judgment attached to the word: that which is toevah is not necessarily evil. (Again, shrimp and pork was considered toevah by the Jews, but Christians don't seem to have a problem with the stuff.)
'Abomination' is a terrible translation of toevah. It has a slew of negative denotations that the original word simply does not have. A more appropriate translation would be 'foreign' or perhaps 'taboo', although 'forbidden' or 'ceremonially unclean', as favored by some more modern biblical translation also work.

Quote:

n 1: a person who is loathsome or disgusting 2: hate coupled with disgust [syn: abhorrence, detestation, execration, loathing, odium] 3: an action that is vicious or vile; an action that arouses disgust or abhorence.

As I said, the original Hebrew lacks the negative denotations of English word 'abominatin'. It's a bad translation.

LadyAmbrosia

K, so I just read 1 Corinthians 6.9 and it doesn't say anything specifically about homosexuality, but it does talk about abusing sex... and being a slave to ones whims. Which is what I think homosexuality is. It feels good, so they do it. Just like pre-marital sex. But that is my opinion, I can see how you could take it differently. But I still think you'd be wrong.

Many translations include references to homosexuality. The New International Version, the American Standard Version, and the English standard version all use the word 'homosexuality', just to name a few. Mind you, I think that translation is incorrect, so I'm actually inclined to agree that 1 Cor 6:9 does not, in fact, reference homosexuality.  

[zz1000zz]

I believe Tangled has answered all of the points save one in this post.

LadyAmbrosia

zz1000zz- Why don't you prove us wrong? Your arguments so far have centred around us mis-translating the Bible. If that is the only argument you've got then you really don't have one... no disrespect meant.

Why should i prove you wrong? As long as i can show your moral standards to be somewhat uncertain, i have done what i wanted to do. If you cannot say with absolute certainty these things are sins, then you cannot justly condemn them.

Also Tangled, i believe there was some confusion in what i meant. When i said,

zz1000zz

Though it is worth pointing out that this controversy is what is actually immoral...

... I was rather unclear. I should have used quotation marks, which would make it,"Though it is worth pointing out that this controversy is 'what is actually immoral?'"

I completely support discussion and debate. I was just pointing out that passages in the Bible referring to "sexual immorality" do not tell us what is "immoral."

I apologize for the confusion.  

[ElenaMason]

-Sunset Wahine-

SaintChaos

-Sunset Wahine-

In your heart, zz1000zz, you do know what is a sin and what isn't. That's that.

not trying to beat around the bush but the heart is the most deceitful thing. many things that we would consider wrong biblically are most of the time considered right in our eyes.

years ago i considered homosexuality an okay thing as well as being neutral on the idea of abortion. but when i finally studied it more thouroughly only THEN did i really see the truth.

so no....we dont always know the right things even if we think we do.

also in response to this thread might i suggest some verses:

Romans 1:26-32
Luke 16
Matthew 25:41

these regard "unnatural acts" aka homosexuality

Different people do and know different things. (Thanks for giving out more verses.)

oops ignore Luke 16 :S thats a completely different reference xD sorry about that. Luke 16 is the story about Hades :S (5 mins later) crap...disregard the mattew reference as well X_x man i kept reading the wrong references my dad gave me...however the Romans one is good ^^ sorry  

[ElenaMason]

Tangled Up In Blue

SaintChaos

that should be more than literall words for you. homosexuality is also considered an ABOMINATION.

As is eating shrimp, according to the ceremonial laws. The Hebrew word toevah (translated in the KJV as 'abomination') doesn't necessarily mean that something is inherently wrong, but rather that it is foreign to the Jews. Indeed, in Exodus, Moses, when speaking with Pharaoh, describes the Jews' rituals as toevah to the Egyptians, meaning that the Jew's rituals are foreign to the Egyptians. There is no intrinsic moral judgment attached to the word: that which is toevah is not necessarily evil. (Again, shrimp and pork was considered toevah by the Jews, but Christians don't seem to have a problem with the stuff.)
'Abomination' is a terrible translation of toevah. It has a slew of negative denotations that the original word simply does not have. A more appropriate translation would be 'foreign' or perhaps 'taboo', although 'forbidden' or 'ceremonially unclean', as favored by some more modern biblical translation also work.

Quote:

n 1: a person who is loathsome or disgusting 2: hate coupled with disgust [syn: abhorrence, detestation, execration, loathing, odium] 3: an action that is vicious or vile; an action that arouses disgust or abhorence.

As I said, the original Hebrew lacks the negative denotations of English word 'abominatin'. It's a bad translation.

LadyAmbrosia

K, so I just read 1 Corinthians 6.9 and it doesn't say anything specifically about homosexuality, but it does talk about abusing sex... and being a slave to ones whims. Which is what I think homosexuality is. It feels good, so they do it. Just like pre-marital sex. But that is my opinion, I can see how you could take it differently. But I still think you'd be wrong.

Many translations include references to homosexuality. The New International Version, the American Standard Version, and the English standard version all use the word 'homosexuality', just to name a few. Mind you, I think that translation is incorrect, so I'm actually inclined to agree that 1 Cor 6:9 does not, in fact, reference homosexuality.

Just take into account the accounts of what God did to Sodom and Gamorrah. all those men wanted to have "relations" with the angels that visited the city. God would have to be PRETTY mad to destory an entire city. If he gets that mad over it, that should also give at least an "inkling" that what they did was highly wrong and "unnatural" in God's eyes. in Romans 1:22-27 it also shows how God is calling it a destetable act.

In regards to the word being use in different bible versions, its even used in my NASB. i dont believe its either a greek or hebrew word is it? I was looking up my biblical pictorial dictionary the other day and the word homosexuality wasnt even in there. the book is rather old, but it had Hades and what not in there. but not homosexuality. the bible DOES refer to homosexuality as "unnatrual acts" however O_o. id look up in my bible concordance but its packed away in a box -_-  

[Tarrou]

SaintChaos

Just take into account the accounts of what God did to Sodom and Gamorrah. all those men wanted to have "relations" with the angels that visited the city. God would have to be PRETTY mad to destory an entire city. If he gets that mad over it, that should also give at least an "inkling" that what they did was highly wrong and "unnatural" in God's eyes. in Romans 1:22-27 it also shows how God is calling it a destetable act.

I'd remind you that He was going to destroy the entire cities anyway: the mob's attempts at raping Lot's guests was not the catalyst for Sodom and Gomorrah's destruction. That decision was made prior to the events at Lot's house, when God said that he would spare the city if He could find 10 righteous men in it (and could not). Sodom's sins are enumerated in Ezekiel 16:49-50, and homosexuality is not specifically mentioned there, nor anywhere else in the bible. Moreover, no Jewish tradition holds that homosexual sex was Sodom and Gomorrah's primary sin (if they engaged in it at all). Generally, it's held that the Sodomite were unreasonably cruel and inhospitable; buggery certainly isn't mentioned.
Moreover, when it comes to the question of the mob and Lot's guests, it would make more sense to assume that the sin they were so bent on committing was most likely rape, which I'm assuming God isn't very fond of. To say that homosexuality is explicitly condemned in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is out and out wrong, and to say that it's implicitly condemned is, in my opinion, a bit of a stretch.

Quote:

In regards to the word being use in different bible versions, its even used in my NASB. i dont believe its either a greek or hebrew word is it? I was looking up my biblical pictorial dictionary the other day and the word homosexuality wasnt even in there. the book is rather old, but it had Hades and what not in there. but not homosexuality. the bible DOES refer to homosexuality as "unnatrual acts" however O_o. id look up in my bible concordance but its packed away in a box -_-

There's a reason for that: the modern concept of homosexuality didn't exist back when the bible was being written. The idea of homosexuality as a sexual orientation hadn't come into being yet. Instead it was just a question of actions (i.e. whether or not someone had sex with a member of the sam sex).  

[ElenaMason]

Tangled Up In Blue

SaintChaos

Just take into account the accounts of what God did to Sodom and Gamorrah. all those men wanted to have "relations" with the angels that visited the city. God would have to be PRETTY mad to destory an entire city. If he gets that mad over it, that should also give at least an "inkling" that what they did was highly wrong and "unnatural" in God's eyes. in Romans 1:22-27 it also shows how God is calling it a destetable act.

I'd remind you that He was going to destroy the entire cities anyway: the mob's attempts at raping Lot's guests was not the catalyst for Sodom and Gomorrah's destruction. That decision was made prior to the events at Lot's house, when God said that he would spare the city if He could find 10 righteous men in it (and could not). Sodom's sins are enumerated in Ezekiel 16:49-50, and homosexuality is not specifically mentioned there, nor anywhere else in the bible. Moreover, no Jewish tradition holds that homosexual sex was Sodom and Gomorrah's primary sin (if they engaged in it at all). Generally, it's held that the Sodomite were unreasonably cruel and inhospitable; buggery certainly isn't mentioned.
Moreover, when it comes to the question of the mob and Lot's guests, it would make more sense to assume that the sin they were so bent on committing was most likely rape, which I'm assuming God isn't very fond of. To say that homosexuality is explicitly condemned in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is out and out wrong, and to say that it's implicitly condemned is, in my opinion, a bit of a stretch.

Quote:

In regards to the word being use in different bible versions, its even used in my NASB. i dont believe its either a greek or hebrew word is it? I was looking up my biblical pictorial dictionary the other day and the word homosexuality wasnt even in there. the book is rather old, but it had Hades and what not in there. but not homosexuality. the bible DOES refer to homosexuality as "unnatrual acts" however O_o. id look up in my bible concordance but its packed away in a box -_-

There's a reason for that: the modern concept of homosexuality didn't exist back when the bible was being written. The idea of homosexuality as a sexual orientation hadn't come into being yet. Instead it was just a question of actions (i.e. whether or not someone had sex with a member of the sam sex).

lol i wasnt saying it was the main reason that God destroyed Sodom and Gamorrah, but it could very well have been "part" of his reasons. No homosexuality was not specifically mentioned, but it says "....bring them out so we may have RELATIONS with them." whether its rape or "relations" its still menXmen, men(rape)men=still homosexual acts. homosexuality isnt condemned i agree, but its not allowed either. it was either Romans or another book that says specifically that a man shall not lie with another man.

on regards on the use of the word homosexuality....thanks for the info. thats what i originally thought to, that the word/concept wasnt used back then and so they just called it unnatural acts. i was just wondering if anyone else knew about it. thanks for the confirmation smile  

[Seority]

I thought biblical standards only applied to Christians. You know the people that follow God's rules. To Christians sinners are sinners. They don't want to live by God's rule so they don't. Sinners can ONLY sin. Saying that they must follow our rules and standards is just wrong.

 

[LadyAmbrosia]

So, I talked to my Pastor and he made me realize that this argument has been going on for ages. Sure I could find the answers and post them, but it probly won't convince you, just like your never going to convince me. Because all the words in the world could never take away my experience of God, that's what's real... so you can respond if you want, but I am not going to be back because this is going nowhere.  

[Atarashi No Sensei]

LadyAmbrosia

So, I talked to my Pastor and he made me realize that this argument has been going on for ages. Sure I could find the answers and post them, but it probly won't convince you, just like your never going to convince me. Because all the words in the world could never take away my experience of God, that's what's real... so you can respond if you want, but I am not going to be back because this is going nowhere.

Right. God is 100% real. He's shown Himself to me in my life. I couldn't have been more touched by Him. He can do the same for you, if you just let Him.  

[tubbyflip]

leviticus20:13if a man lies with a man as one lies with a women , both of them have done what is detestable. they must be put to death there blood will be on their own heads. i dont know how much clearer it gets