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This is not exactly an argument, but more of an observation...

I just wanted to state that though it seems the world is supposedly getting better, isn't it also realized that since the 18th century, individualism has taken off at first as a form of expressing the wants and desires of an individual, but now it seems it has come to the point in the 21st century as a form of individualism only for the benefit of self.

This does relate to abortion however, in the concept that Pro-Life is more socialistic (socialist) in the aspect that we are trying to better society on the whole. The concept is though abortion should remain an option, it should not be used in the way we know people will take advantage of it (birth control).

The problem with socialism is that it requires people to do their part in contributing to society, and a perfect socialist society is impossible because humanity is imperfect. There will always be individuals who promote self before the group, which from my observations are very prominent among the pro-choice supporters who are indeed female, and do intend should they ever get pregnant to obtain an abortion.

The supporters of the pro-choice supporters (the ones that agree but are not fanatics) do so in the conceptual belief that people should have the right to choose what they want with their own body despite whatever actions they take to change their body. Since this idea is prominent, it is taken in by me that the pro-choice side of the argument promotes self above everything else.

This being ascertained into my thoughts, though it may be what this country is founded on, makes me believe that the world is indeed not getting any better. That society is taking steps both forward and backward, and not progressing in either direction. At first it was too socialistic, and now it is too individualistic to the point where the majority of people care more for themselves than what actions mean to society on the whole.

I know the pro-choice argument against this observation would first be a statement that I am biased, which it's true that I am, but the second thing they would point out is that they are fighting for the rights of every woman to have an abortion.

Though this is true, it does not erase the fact that they are merely fighting for their own right to abort something in which they created simply by actions where on the most part, were committed by them. The rape argument in this case is rare, and yet with it's rareness it gives them this argument...

However, if rape was truly an issue, then it would be just as simple to place these restrictions on abortion, mainly because it would be obvious the woman was raped if she takes the man to court and reports it to the hospital. With selfish goals however, this argument has been overshadowed with:

"I want my right to abort something I created, and because it's my body, no matter what is created, it should not be my responsibility because I don't have to be responsible for my actions, after all I'm only an adult who can debate against people online, and even though I'm smart enough to debate against them, I am still not disciplined enough to accept responsibility."

I just feel like society is on the down hill regardless of what anyone believes.

Good luck, I think you'll be torn apart by the wolves....Gaia's a liberal society, mostly prochoice.

Look at suicide, divorce, etc. rates and compare them to a few hundred years ago and tell me the world is a better place.

Look at teen girls and boys being pressured into sex at young ages and tell me the world is a better place.

Look at how human beings are being treated as objects, born and unborn, and tell me it's a better place.

That is all I have to say to anyone who thinks this world is a better place now. When my 9 year old cousin asks me what sex is and tells me some boys in her class were talking about doing it with some girl, when my eyes fix on a guy and I see not a person but a predator, when my friends tell me I'm looking at prey, when I am told that my body is who I am, what I'm worth, and what I need to use to get ahead in life, I don't think this is a better place. I think it was better when men tipped their hats to ladies, held doors open, when women were ladies and men were gentlemen, when children were protected, the born I mean as well as the unborn, when people were people and nothing less in society's eyes, maybe not to individuals but to be socially acceptable, you treated people like people. THAT is when I think the world was a better place. Individuals were PROTECTED by society. Women were protected.

I'm not being idealistic, I know people who remember it, a lot of people. Society protected men and women from being used for pleasure and then left behind by making it socially unacceptable to treat someone as anything less. You did not "hook up" in those days, it'd be ghastly. Girls and boys alike were protected from being little more than relief for raging hormones.

Society now is tolerant of these behaviors. Suicide, STD, and pregnancy rates are up. Hmm. Wonder why? Because in order to better society, we need to allow individuals to treat themselves and others like crud? I'm not saying a steady relationship with sex, I'm saying multiple sexual relations without meaning. "If I get her pregnant, she can just abort." "If I get pregnant, I can just abort." These excuses have led to uncountable deaths and ignoring it and saying doesn't fly. It ISN'T a necessary evil. There are other ways to have the same results of liberated women and men without having the deaths of the unborn and born result from it. What I wanna know is where the feminists are when WAY over 50 percent of teen girls polled say in surveys that they're pressured into sex and that the first time, they weren't ready for it. They didn't want it. What do they think is making these girls give in? The evil men? Why are these teens so willing to do something so serious without worrying about consequences? I guess they don't comment on that because they realize that abortion is a major enabler for men to use women (vice versa, but I"m talking about feminists right now) and they don't like that since abortion is also a major way for women to use (I'm sorry....let's be pc....protect against....) men and they don't want that option (I'm sorry, protection...oh wait...they use the word option, too, funny that...) taken from them.

Not everyone. MOST prochoicers believe in what they are doing as being morally right. It's the ones pulling the strings in the backs of these people I"m talking about. Abortion is a social issue. It's argued that it's bettering society. Maybe for those few women who like to use it as tool, it is. Maybe they can convince themselves it is. But they're being selfish. They can't see past themselves and see how much of a toll it takes on society. They see it as liberation when it's really just a new form of objectification. I hate abuse. With a passion. That's why I hate abortion so much I think. I never really had a reason, other than that I care, it hasn't touched me personally much. I hate abuse though, and that is why I hate abortion, I think.

There's a difference between medical and birth control. Doctors have to give a woman an option to abort if birth will kill her or they'll be violating their oaths to do no harm. They are also under obligation to figure out how to save the most people. If there is no medical reason to abort, that leaves rape and birth control abortions. Considering BC abortions make up most of abortions out there...there's a problem with saying it's to protect women. It's not. It's to protect the pursual of pleasure regardless of anyone else's life. This means men can have sex without fear of getting their partner pregnant and pressure her into abortion and use girls with the promise "you can get an abortion" if he gets her pregnant. Girls can use men and kill their children without giving them a say. Doesn't sound very prochoice to me.

Okay this is mostly in response to Lyme, however it does cover the basics of the first post, I do believe. (I went off on a bit of a tangent. XD)

Firstly with respect to the issue of the fathers having no choice, it's very true. Choicers are quick to label us "pro-fetus" or "pro-birth" or "anti-choice" however they don't stop think that they themselves may not fit their name either. They are infact "pro-woman's-choice-on-abortion". The fetus has no choice as to whether it wants to live or die, the woman's children (Assuming she has any) have no choice as to whether they may want a brother or sister, and the father has no choice as to wanting the child.

Not only this but I highly doubt many "pro-choicer's" want to abolish government completely. However the government itself takes many people's choices into its own hands. We cannot chose to drink and drive, to shoot someone on the street, etc. I don't see their "pro-choice" standards living up to these issues.

Not only these but these so called "feminists" are not feminists at all. This ties in some what with the "lady" and "gentlemen" thing that you stated. Which I agree with some what. (But I'll get to that in a bit.) While I agree that women should be allowed to go for the same jobs as men, earn the same wages etc. they also need to chose whether they want to become more like men, or be treated as ladies.

What do I mean? Well it's simple. Some women enjoy men paying for their dinner, opening doors for them, pulling out their chair, buying them gifts etc. While that's all well and good, what the hell are they doing out the next day fighting for 'equal' rights if they expect all of that? These are not examples of 'equal' rights, but of superior rights. They get the same jobs and wages as men, and then expect to be treated like royalty at the same time.

Another good example is the whole "guys can't hit a girl" deal. How many feminists do you wager would have the same reaction to my boyfriend hitting me, as they would to me hitting my boyfriend? Exactly.

This is where out views differ, Lyme. While I think that women should have their difference from men, like I have no problem with women wearing make-up, or dresses, or doing their hair fancy etc. I think that the movement away from the "lady and gentleman" is a good thing. I'm not delicate, and I don't want to be treated as such. Do I get offended when someone opens a door for me? No. But do I expected it? Not a chance.

That said, I actually get slightly offended when I'm kidding around saying something about 'fighting' to my boyfriend and he says that he wouldn't fight back. Why do I get offended? Mostly because to me it seems like I'm too 'delicate' to fight him, even if it is only play fighting. Silly? Maybe. Could he take me in a couple second flat? More than likely. However when I say that I want equal rights, I mean in everything. I don't want "equal rights in whatever is going to be positive for me". I want everyone to be equal.

It's not the liberal movement that's making things go downhill, it's people picking and choosing which parts of the liberal movement they agree with, and which parts they don't. Which parts they want to make equal and which parts they like just how they are.

There's nothing wrong with fighting for equality and the right to your body. But if you're going to fight for equality than you damn well better want everyone to be equal, not just you. I mean everyone fathers, children, your unborn children, blacks, whites, everyone in between, males, females, gays, bisexuals, straight people, Jewish, Christian, Pagan etc.

Feminism is equality, not superiority, that's feminazism... crying

I do support feminism... believe it or not.. the only thing I don't support are those 6'8 300 lb muscle women who say they are better than me and then beat me up...

I know a lot of girls will say I may be against feminism if I said I would never hit a woman... but the fact is, regardless, if a woman was 6'8 muscular and a feminazi.... I just have to run... and hope she can't run... cause at 5'6 I honestly don't stand a chance... gonk

I never fought a girl, but I've been beaten up by one.... crying I hate how my mama said never hit a woman... stressed

It's embarressing to be beaten up by a girl to be honest... But I've never lost a fight to guys who are even twice my size... so I guess that makes up for it.. somewhat....

That's just it though. Most people are not fighting for equality. Even people who have the best intentions at heart. My father for instance, is a wonderful, wonderful man. One thing he said which stuck with me was when my step-mother, Susan was complaining about needing to shave because the hair on her legs was too long. My father just laughed at her, and she said "Don't you find it gross?". What my father said was, "When it gets to the same length of my hair, then we'll talk. But while I don't shave my legs I can't really expect you to either."

I think every woman should be treated like that. However society deems not shaving your legs as gross, for females. Even I find it gross not to shave my legs. And even though my Dad is so open about equality in that sense, he still has zero tolerence for a guy hitting a girl.