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Is socialism against "human nature"?

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Contra mundus

PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:21 am


Another great Article to be added to the others.

Taken from Socialist Worker online

Quote:
PEOPLE WHO want to end the exploitation, oppression, poverty and war characteristic of modern capitalist society are regularly told that fundamental change is impossible because of human nature. War? It's human nature to fight. Racism? It's human nature to fear "outsiders." Women's oppression? Men and women are "naturally different."

Human nature is also said to make socialism impossible. Human beings, it is claimed, are naturally selfish, competitive and aggressive. Thus, a classless society based on cooperation and equality can’t be built.

But is there any evidence that these familiar claims about human nature are actually true? Sweeping claims about human nature are often made on the basis of evolutionary biology--that is, science’s understanding of how human beings, like other species of animals, have evolved and changed over time.

In the 1970s, the Harvard scientist Edward Wilson launched sociobiology, claiming that certain forms of human behavior are universal, and that the best explanation for them is that they are coded for in our genes. Wilson suggested that there were genes for entrepreneurship, aggression, spite, conformity, xenophobia, gender roles and much more.

He speculated that "the genetic bias is intense enough to cause a substantial division of labor, even in the most free and egalitarian of future societies...Even with identical education and equal access to all professions, men are likely to play a disproportionate role in political life, business, and science."

Concerning Marxism in particular, Wilson reportedly joked, "Wonderful theory. Wrong species." But almost none of the behaviors that Wilson claimed to be universal really are, since human societies exhibit enormous variations.

For example, the anthropologist Peggy Sanday conducted a survey of about 150 different societies going back close to 3,000 years to see whether they were male-dominated, female-dominated or based on collective decision-making. She found a huge diversity of sex roles in these societies--showing that such roles derive not from human nature, but "from the historical and political circumstances in which people find themselves."

The idea that violence and war have always been part of human society may seem like common sense. But the historical evidence reveals a very different picture. According to the Rutgers anthropologist R. Brian Ferguson, "The global archaeological record contradicts the idea that war was always a feature of human existence; instead, the record shows that warfare is largely a development of the past 10,000 years."

Ferguson argues that warfare became a feature of human society only as a consequence of specific historical developments, including the establishment of permanent settlements with accumulated wealth and the emergence of "social hierarchy, an elite, perhaps with its own interests and rivalries." Rather than war being the expression of some general human propensity to violence, war reflects the interests of those at the top of society who are most likely to benefit from it.

Claims similar to the ones made by Wilson have been revived more recently by self-styled "evolutionary psychologists," such as MIT scientist Steven Pinker. Pinker attacks "Marxists, academic feminists and cafe intellectuals" and claims that "[t]he standard Marxist theory of human nature has probably been refuted by...the anthropological record and Darwinian theory."

By the Marxist theory of human nature, Pinker means the view that human behavior depends on the historical and social circumstances in which people live. Instead, Pinker claims that inequality and conflict are inevitable, violence "is part of our design" and human nature is not compatible with socialist or egalitarian political arrangements.

According to evolutionary psychologists, basic features of human psychology were hardwired into the brains of our ancestors by natural selection to enable them to survive the conditions faced by early humans. If for tens of thousands of years our ancestors required social hierarchy, violence and a sexual division of labor to survive, then human nature would have evolved to include tendencies to behave in these ways.

While human environments have, of course, changed dramatically since the time of our hunter-gatherer ancestors, according to Pinker’s hypothesis, our basic behavior has remained unchanged. But as Peggy Sanday and Brian Ferguson showed, the claims that violence and hierarchy were features of all early human societies and that gender roles have remained unchanged are mistaken.

More fundamentally, the idea that human nature is basically rigid and unchanging is incompatible with what we actually know about human evolution. The first modern humans are believed to have evolved in southern Africa a little over 100,000 years ago. According to Marta Lahr, a professor of evolutionary studies at Cambridge University, these creatures had "the potential of invention that we have. And I think that's actually what makes them modern--they [could] invent solutions to new problems."

Around 50,000 years ago, groups of modern humans began to migrate from Africa and disperse around the world, coming into contact with other similar species that had left Africa more than a million years earlier. Modern humans arrived in Europe around 35,000 years ago, where they lived side by side with Neanderthals, a closely related but distinct human species.

Neanderthals, unlike modern humans, were physiologically well adapted to the cold European climate, but they were cognitively inferior to our ancestors--that is, their brains had a lower capacity for intelligence. According to the archeologist Paul Mellars, "The most remarkable thing about Neanderthal technology is the way it hardly changes significantly over about a quarter of a million years. You get essentially the same shapes of tools made by the same techniques over this whole period.

"Now as soon as you get modern humans on the scene, you get a whole range of dramatic changes. They suddenly start producing new shapes of stone tools obviously designed for different functions, and they start producing tools from bones, antler and ivory, which had never been used before." It was this creativity and ingenuity of our ancestors--also exhibited in their elaborate ornaments, art and burial rituals, and the complex networks of trade and exchange they established--that explains why they survived and the Neanderthals did not.

When temperatures in Europe began to plummet with the onset of a new ice age, Neanderthals were unable to adjust to the new conditions. But modern humans continued to thrive, even in mountainous areas. By 28,000 years ago, the last remaining Neanderthals had disappeared. Similar developments took place around the world, where modern humans replaced other similar species.

Thus, the key to our ancestors' success was their enormous flexibility and ability to learn, not patterns of behavior hardwired into their brains. To claim this is not--as Pinker seems to assume--to say that the human mind is simply a "blank slate," or that there are no biological constraints on human behavior.

As the biologist Stephen Jay Gould once noted, "We would lead very different social lives if we photosynthesized (no agriculture, gathering, or hunting--the major determinants of our social evolution) or had life cycles like...gall midges," which devour their mothers’ bodies from the inside. Nevertheless, our biological inheritance leaves open an enormous range of possible behaviors.

As Gould put it: "Why imagine that specific genes for aggression or spite have any importance when we know that the brain's enormous flexibility permits us to be aggressive or peaceful, dominant or submissive, spiteful or generous? Violence, sexism and general nastiness are biological since they represent one subset of a possible range of behaviors. But peacefulness, equality and kindness are just as biological--and we may see their influence increase if we can create social structures that permit them to flourish."

Human beings have basic physical and emotional needs--for food and shelter, for social contact and affection--which all too often go unmet under capitalism. But we also have a need to exercise control over our own lives and to engage in activities that make use of our creative abilities. Capitalism, like other forms of class society, frustrates these needs, leading those who are exploited to fight back against it.

In different circumstances, people behave differently. But this doesn’t mean that people are simply unalterable products of their society. Workers have the collective capacity to change the circumstances in which they live. In the process of doing so, they change themselves.

As Karl Marx wrote, "Revolution is necessary not only because the ruling class cannot be overthrown in any other way, but also because the class overthrowing it can only in a revolution succeed in ridding itself of all the old crap and become fitted to found society anew."

Socialism thus means not just a new form of society, but a new form of human consciousness, free from the distorting pressures of capitalism. Only in this way will the human capacity for self-determination finally become a reality.


Now I have to incoperate some of this into my essay
PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:59 pm


I'm under moral obligation to poke a few holes in here... just to make sure it's not repeated exactly as shown... ninja

Quote:
Wilson suggested that there were genes for entrepreneurship, aggression, spite, conformity, xenophobia, gender roles and much more.

lol, maybe... but for the same reasons I argue against eugenics with Aramek.. it's just not that simple. There isn't one gene for one trait. In every case one gene is the source of many seemingly unrelated traits. Be extremely weary of headlines claiming they "found the gene for such-and-such!"

Quote:
According to the Rutgers anthropologist R. Brian Ferguson, "The global archaeological record contradicts the idea that war was always a feature of human existence; instead, the record shows that warfare is largely a development of the past 10,000 years."

Isn't that also how long recorded history has been around...?

Quote:
Neanderthals, unlike modern humans, were physiologically well adapted to the cold European climate, but they were cognitively inferior to our ancestors--that is, their brains had a lower capacity for intelligence.

The more current thought on Neanderthals is more generous than that. For one thing, they survived for at least 100,000 years... which is about how long we've been around as a well-defined species. Also, there brains were larger. They have 1.8 liters for a modern human's 1.4.... and what's more, they had well designed tool kits that we actually stole from them rather often. And they actually evolved to be in cold places when we didn't... so it's really more than wishful thinking to assume we beat them somehow.

And Neanderthals did burry their dead. They were not sub-human anymore than a zerba is sub-horse.


Anyway... to add something to support.. I like the Dalai Lama's example...
"How does our life start? As a child, with a mother's milk, with a mother's physical touch. During that early time, if our mother, or someone else, without a sense of care, without a sense of compassion abandons us, we cannot survive. This is the way human life starts."

For what it's worth, as flaw as we can be, we're all born to expect kindness no matter how selfish we may turn out to be in the long run. I find a kind of hope in that.

Maryhl

Shy Werewolf


Contra mundus

PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:50 pm


Kagerou Osajima

Quote:
According to the Rutgers anthropologist R. Brian Ferguson, "The global archaeological record contradicts the idea that war was always a feature of human existence; instead, the record shows that warfare is largely a development of the past 10,000 years."

Isn't that also how long recorded history has been around...?
I take It that's just when History got interesting eh?

I'm trying to remember how old the oldest archived anything was...but hmmm.... either way I'll get back to you on that part.

However we did exist before that.

Quote:

Quote:
Neanderthals, unlike modern humans, were physiologically well adapted to the cold European climate, but they were cognitively inferior to our ancestors--that is, their brains had a lower capacity for intelligence.

The more current thought on Neanderthals is more generous than that. For one thing, they survived for at least 100,000 years... which is about how long we've been around as a well-defined species. Also, there brains were larger. They have 1.8 liters for a modern human's 1.4.... and what's more, they had well designed tool kits that we actually stole from them rather often. And they actually evolved to be in cold places when we didn't... so it's really more than wishful thinking to assume we beat them somehow.

And Neanderthals did burry their dead. They were not sub-human anymore than a zerba is sub-horse.
Perhaps, perhaps not. However I do recall reading that it's still being debated if their speech skills are as good as those humans who came up from Africa. And it did seem those that came up from Africa had superior technology as suddenly the technology switched at a certain period.

However the Part of the New Ice Age is somewhat confusing. The article agrees that they were more adjusted to the cold weather, I guess this would just simply mean the immigrants from Africa had better ways to deal with the cold when they got there? I dont' know. But still as advanced as they were, it seems those from Africa were farther along and more flexible which seems to be the point.

Quote:

Anyway... to add something to support.. I like the Dalai Lama's example...
"How does our life start? As a child, with a mother's milk, with a mother's physical touch. During that early time, if our mother, or someone else, without a sense of care, without a sense of compassion abandons us, we cannot survive. This is the way human life starts."

For what it's worth, as flaw as we can be, we're all born to expect kindness no matter how selfish we may turn out to be in the long run. I find a kind of hope in that.
Interesting...I dont' read a lot of the Dalai Lama's work, but perhaps I should.

I sort of take a Rousseau approach that all Humans are born good, but it's the enviroment that corrupts them.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 9:43 pm


By the way I have two other such things in my journal. I would post them, but they're actually bigger than this one.

Edit: Now it's three. And the link is here

http://www.gaiaonline.com/journal/?mode=view&p=4175521

Contra mundus


Maryhl

Shy Werewolf

PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 11:45 am


M-mann
I take It that's just when History got interesting eh?

I'm trying to remember how old the oldest archived anything was...but hmmm.... either way I'll get back to you on that part.

However we did exist before that.

Way before that, aye. One of the more fascinating cases I've crossed is that of the Australian aborigines. For as long as hominids have been around, Australia as always been an island. Yet, the aborigines have apparently lived their for up to 60,000 years.
We don't even know if humans could properly communicate that early back in time... yet some how somebody was able to not only find Australia... but was also to navigate well enough to bring over enough people to start a breeding population. Whatever happened back then is just so out of reach to explain properly.

Quote:
Perhaps, perhaps not. However I do recall reading that it's still being debated if their speech skills are as good as those humans who came up from Africa. And it did seem those that came up from Africa had superior technology as suddenly the technology switched at a certain period.

However the Part of the New Ice Age is somewhat confusing. The article agrees that they were more adjusted to the cold weather, I guess this would just simply mean the immigrants from Africa had better ways to deal with the cold when they got there? I dont' know. But still as advanced as they were, it seems those from Africa were farther along and more flexible which seems to be the point.

Maybe, but consider this. One of the cultural differences between Neanderthals and Homo Sapien was that Neanderthals didn't migrate very much. They could just as well live their whole lives within several miles and in the same caves.
Now, weather conditions of where they lived were nothing short of a Siberian winter at the best of times. Also, so I've read.. the average life-span for a Neanderthal was 30 years at best due to the general harshness of the environment.

My guess based on this would be that the Neanderthals were not driven out by the Sapiens.. but cornered by their own circumstances. Just a disease running through their local animal population and eventually infecting them.. perhaps a few years of particularly bad weather. And presumably, like us, their children would need a lot of adult care and at least ten years before being able to contribute to the breeding population themselves. So even before we come into the picture, they could of very well been on the way out.

I thought of this, because whenever our species has a case of vanishing... it often has to do with natural disasters or disease... or more to the relevance here, overuse of the land...which leads to a nasty competition for whatever's left...and ultimately being abandoned by anyone still able to flee.

I really think the reason we're here an they're not.. is because.. as the aborigines show, apparently... we moved around a lot and had no claim to territory. We didn't confined ourselves to a patch of land all our lives with eating only the few things that could grow there. Sure it was risky business migrating around like that... but as any astronaut can attest, we're certainly an audacious bunch of apes. Perhaps, one could even assert that we didn't evolve in accordance to the laws of land property, rather a side-effect of changing culture..

Quote:
Interesting...I dont' read a lot of the Dalai Lama's work, but perhaps I should.

I sort of take a Rousseau approach that all Humans are born good, but it's the enviroment that corrupts them.

Well... the Dalai Lama is from a branch of Buddhism that believes enlightenment to be obtainable through compassion. He also happens to be a science nut... so as long as you can forgive his being a monk... makes for some interesting altruism-oriented philosophy.

I do like Rousseau's take on things, though. Just, I wouldn't separate the person from the environment.
Er.... well, Alan Watts is a decent philosopher for that. From the age of hippies.. but good at putting Eastern thought into Western context. Will post an audiobook of his lecture here. But going to have to be very bored...cuz he's kind of silly.

And now I'm gonna read all that.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:55 am


Socialism can never be against human nature, and here is the evidence.

Since the dawn of our existence humans seek solidarity and respect towards themselves and the only way to achieve respect is to commit good deeds. (Being evil will not create respect, just fear towards you). The more you behave towards socialist standarts the more people like you.

That's also why people who behave according to cultural morals behave like socialists.

As the world developes it becomes more and more socialist.

Before it was fine to own people, (the landlord owned the peasants),
later it was only fine if they did what you said, but you didn't own them,
later it was only allowed to own slaves of certain racial groups,
later this has been abolished, but still racists discrimination persisted,
now it is not alright if you are a racist. Being one will certainly lead to a loss of reputation.
People become more and more tolerant to each other and solidarity grows as well.

Socialism is just something that each of us is striving to, even though many still don't see it as possible.

I tell you one thing. Anything is possible. Even the so much disputed communism. People believed that no one could ever walk on the moon, that no one could ever fly, that no one could ever live over 80 years and some people now live over 120. They also believed that people with the heart of someone else will die. Now they say it is impossible to travel faster than light, that it is impossible to become immortal as well that communism will never be achieved.

Why should I believe that? Our dreams will become true just like the dreams of our ancestors became reality.

Kenzu


dwwarfdsfas

PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:04 pm


I agree with M-mann. I think a socialist society is possible because alot of what we call "human nature" isn't really written in out genes. I also think that the enviroment has a hug role in how the person acts. So if someone is born into a capitalist society they would be more pron to be selfish and if someone was born into a socialist/communist society i beileve that they would be more pron to be sharing. Well thats what i beileve at least.Kenzu also has a good point as well.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:47 pm


I disagree that socialism is against human nature based on what we have seen in "primitive" cultures.
The kalahari bushmen have no violence, they work together with no leader, and they live just fine in a place that would kill any personal-motivated person. The native americans had very little violence amongst eachother. They barely beat their kids or their wives, unlike the people who came in and exploited them. I believe privelege is connected directly to violence, and the rejection of groups. The moment something is there to be coveted, a society turns into a capitalist one. So if people lost the idea that things belong to them, then they could successfully create a socialist, and eventually communist, society. This does not mean you steal things away from them. It means that you simply make them think that they are a piece of a puzzle, but what a puzzle! A puzzle to unlock the potential of mankind! Primitive communism as demonstrated by kalahari bushmen is what people want naturally, they just need to have that awoken in them.

Dermatobia


Steve Sage

PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:35 pm


IZackrodisiacI
I disagree that socialism is against human nature based on what we have seen in "primitive" cultures.
The kalahari bushmen have no violence, they work together with no leader, and they live just fine in a place that would kill any personal-motivated person. The native americans had very little violence amongst eachother. They barely beat their kids or their wives, unlike the people who came in and exploited them. I believe privelege is connected directly to violence, and the rejection of groups. The moment something is there to be coveted, a society turns into a capitalist one. So if people lost the idea that things belong to them, then they could successfully create a socialist, and eventually communist, society. This does not mean you steal things away from them. It means that you simply make them think that they are a piece of a puzzle, but what a puzzle! A puzzle to unlock the potential of mankind! Primitive communism as demonstrated by kalahari bushmen is what people want naturally, they just need to have that awoken in them.


This piece of rheotric needs to die, right now. Pranching around with Rousseau's concept of the noble savage is just as errenious as the human nature arugement, comparing industrial soceties with pre-agricultural socities is like comparing apples to Robert Downy Jr. Besides how do know what I naturally want, isn't claiming that someone naturally wants something an arugement FOR human nature?
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MCS: Marxism, Communism, Socialism

 
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