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 Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:42 pm
I know, it's trite. But a while back some friends proposed the old "Who would win if Batman faught Darth Vader," and it just drove me crazy that everyone thought it was obvious that Darth Vader would win.
Let me just say, I am a true believer in Terry Pratchett and his theory of narrative causality.
Batman exists in a universe in which he is the underdog. The badguys are always more powerful, and yet he figures out a way to win. He has to win. That's narrative causality.
Darth Vader exists in a universe where he is in a position of insuperable advantage, able to demolish planets, call upon countless minions. He is the "overdog" if you will, and yet in the end the evils he perpetrates do not succeed. This too is narrative causality.
If the two conflicted, I could see an argument, but both narrative causalities mesh beautifully. No matter which story takes precedence, Batman has to win because they both exist in a world of stories and that's what makes the story work.
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Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:05 am
I agree. Batman would nearly not win, and terrible stuff would happen to him probably, but he would win. Plus- he's Batman, he almost always wins.
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Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:02 am
Batman does always find away to defeat an enemy nomater what thier strengths are. However you are failing to recognize on little aspect... Darth Vader has The Force... Batman can't hide in the shadows... can't plan anything with out vader knowing... can't throw anything at him that he can't deflect with his light saber... can't use any bat gasses on vader due to his suit... and oh yeah let me not forget Vader could kill batman by just looking at him if he wanted to...
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Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:59 am
DestineChaos Batman does always find away to defeat an enemy nomater what thier strengths are. However you are failing to recognize on little aspect... Darth Vader has The Force... Batman can't hide in the shadows... can't plan anything with out vader knowing... can't throw anything at him that he can't deflect with his light saber... can't use any bat gasses on vader due to his suit... and oh yeah let me not forget Vader could kill batman by just looking at him if he wanted to... And that's exactly why it would be so impossible for Batman to win. I really want to continue this argument by listing all the other folks it would be impossible for Batman to beat that he nonetheless has. Superman leaps to mind. But no, I had certainly thought of the force. I refer you to Revenge of the Sith. How many Jedi can you count that get surprised and shot down by mere stormtroopers? Can practitioners of the force be distracted? Can practitioners of the force be surprised? Can practitioners of the force be killed ("You can't kill Jedi" "Would that were true"--Anikin & Qui Gon Jinn). If any of these things can be done, then they can be done by Batman. This isn't physics, it's literature. What strikes me--what would an electro-magnetic pulse do to someone who's "More machine than man, now"?
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Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:29 pm
DestineChaos Batman does always find away to defeat an enemy nomater what thier strengths are. There was that insect assasin girl that he fought when Stephanie was Robin that he couldn't beat, and I'm sure there must have been other people.
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Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:01 pm
oswulf And that's exactly why it would be so impossible for Batman to win. I really want to continue this argument by listing all the other folks it would be impossible for Batman to beat that he nonetheless has. Superman leaps to mind. But no, I had certainly thought of the force. I refer you to Revenge of the Sith. How many Jedi can you count that get surprised and shot down by mere stormtroopers? Can practitioners of the force be distracted? Can practitioners of the force be surprised? Can practitioners of the force be killed ("You can't kill Jedi" "Would that were true"--Anikin & Qui Gon Jinn). If any of these things can be done, then they can be done by Batman. This isn't physics, it's literature. What strikes me--what would an electro-magnetic pulse do to someone who's "More machine than man, now"? Please don't bring up Episode III ... any starwars fan would say it was a pile of hypocritical suck... btw they where clone troopers, not quite storm troopers yet... But would an Eletro magnetic Pulse be enough to do it? It's alien tech and I'm sure if it could be done the rebelion would have already tried it... you also need to ask your self if Batman would have a chance to use it before being force choked or electricuted by force lightning...
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Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:03 pm
girl_no_13 DestineChaos Batman does always find away to defeat an enemy nomater what thier strengths are. There was that insect assasin girl that he fought when Stephanie was Robin that he couldn't beat, and I'm sure there must have been other people. Don't forget... Bane broke batmans back...
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:48 am
vader walks into the room and mind chokes batman
fights over
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:29 am
James Howlet vader walks into the room and mind chokes batman fights over Okay, take a moment to remember every batman comic, every batman movie, all the source material you know on batman and vader. First--I don't think it's in Batman's character to rush into a fight with Darth Vader until he's figured out how to get around that. (What leaps to my mind is jet pack as an excape gimic, then return to fight another day.) Second--They don't write batman comics about batman being easily killed. No story. They don't write Star Wars movies about Darth Vader easily walking in and killing the hero. Again, no story. What do they show? Vader not killing Luke because the Falcon shows up at an unexpected moment, or because he wants to use him, or because of the 'good in him'. Batman having his back broken but coming back to win (He did end up winning against Bane didn't he? I mean not in the intial fight, but in the end?), or facing off against Superman and making sure all the tools are in place to win (acquire kryptonite arrow, strike while the sun is blocked).
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:44 am
DestineChaos girl_no_13 DestineChaos Batman does always find away to defeat an enemy nomater what thier strengths are. There was that insect assasin girl that he fought when Stephanie was Robin that he couldn't beat, and I'm sure there must have been other people. Don't forget... Bane broke batmans back... really? Ow mad
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:46 pm
girl_no_13 DestineChaos girl_no_13 DestineChaos Batman does always find away to defeat an enemy nomater what thier strengths are. There was that insect assasin girl that he fought when Stephanie was Robin that he couldn't beat, and I'm sure there must have been other people. Don't forget... Bane broke batmans back... really? Ow mad Yeah was in 92 or 93 shortly after the reign of supermen story line... after that Bruce had some guy being batman for him, but he went crazy and Bruce had a synthetic spine created for him so that he could walk again and stop the 'imposter' stand in... the most resent comic where it is mentioned in that I can pick up off the top of my head is the last comic in the Superman Batman : Public Enemies storyline... in a fight between Batman and Lex (Lex was shooting up Green K laced Venom >.< Bad Ex-Mr. President!)
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:09 pm
oswulf Batman having his back broken but coming back to win (He did end up winning against Bane didn't he? I mean not in the intial fight, but in the end?), or facing off against Superman and making sure all the tools are in place to win (acquire kryptonite arrow, strike while the sun is blocked). Actually, no.... Bane beat Batman within an inch of his life. Bruce has a some guy 'stand in' for him so to say and the stand in beat Bane and the shortly after went crazy evil... Also Batman has fassioned a Green K ring that he keeps in a vault in the Batcave... It rears hit's head from time to time when it's needed... however he never keeps it on his person as he does the shard of Green K on his utility belt in the animated series... Green K arrows are more of well Green Arrows or Speedies style... True Batman does do his research before going into a final face off, however Batman never wins his first fight against a long term protaganist if they are importaint to the story line... and there is also something you do not realize... Batman can't do research on Darth Vader, Since there is no information to be had about Darth Vader on Earth... (provideing Darth Vader is real in the little battle univers we created for them to co exist in)
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:54 pm
DestineChaos Green K arrows are more of well Green Arrows or Speedies style... True Batman does do his research before going into a final face off, however Batman never wins his first fight against a long term protaganist if they are importaint to the story line... and there is also something you do not realize... Batman can't do research on Darth Vader, Since there is no information to be had about Darth Vader on Earth... (provideing Darth Vader is real in the little battle univers we created for them to co exist in) It is actually Green Arrow firing the arrow (one-armed no less). To say Batman can't research Vader because Vader isn't on Earth is like saying Vader can't force-chock Batman because Vader is a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. If Vader isn't there, then there isn't a conflict to begin with. If Vader is there, then Batman can learn.
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:27 pm
oswulf It is actually Green Arrow firing the arrow (one-armed no less). To say Batman can't research Vader because Vader isn't on Earth is like saying Vader can't force-chock Batman because Vader is a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. If Vader isn't there, then there isn't a conflict to begin with. If Vader is there, then Batman can learn. Okay... You can't google something google knows nothing about... Oricle (batmans computer netork) can't research and get information about something that hasn't been documented about on Earth, just the same... For Batman to learn, He would have to observe... He could observe 1 of 2 ways: Fight and make observations on Vaders strengths and weaknesses (which Batman would be killed instanly) or Observe from a distance (which Vader being a force user would beable to sense and could very well kill Batman via Force Choking him also)... Batman it crafty I'll give him that, but he can't take on power of the force...
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:51 am
Okay, backing up.
1) Will you concede that Batman would try? Would to the best of his ability figure out what resources he had availabe and how to make the most use of them?
2) Will you concede that Darth Vader might very well attack, say, Metropolis first, or start sujugating (sp?) Gotham, or in some way attack first somewhere other than directly at Batman in which case he _could_ begin to gather information?
3) Will you concede that if it is possible for Darth Vader to cross paths with Batman, it is equally possible for a Jedi to cross paths with Batman?
And ultimately Batman and Darth Vader ARE NOT REAL PEOPLE. They don't exist unless someone is writing a (comic, script, story, etc). If someone is writing a story and any of these things are _possible_ isn't it in fact extremely likely that the writer will choose for one of them to happen in order to tell a more interesting story than "Vader shows up, Batman dies"?
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