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 Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:47 pm
Okay, I have to say something.
I'm losing faith in my beliefs in being Pro-life. It's all really starting to... Just fade away, I guess.
I don't know why, but I don't believe it when I'm saying it
See, it's weird. I used to be really strong in the way I supported being pro-life, but lately I've been considering the other side. The pro-choice side.
Neither side makes sense to me anymore, when I look at it objectively like this. I don't believe either side is really right, anymore. And I'm considering a position of apathy would be best for me.
I don't get it. I don't know why things are different, but I actually thought that it didn't really make sense for me to be against abortion. I actually thought: "Not my child, not my money, not my choice, not my body, not my business."
Now... That's not to say I'm pro-choice. I still think it's wrong to kill, and I know that the fetus is a person. I just don't see it as one-sided anymore. I see through a haze, because there are so many arguments that make sense to me on both sides, now. It also doesn't help that it makes me feel bad telling people that they can't make the choice to have an abortion. I've not debated abortion in so long because it makes me feel like this.
Sorry for ranting like this, I just feel kind of disappointed in myself.
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:59 pm
Mcphee Okay, I have to say something.
I'm losing faith in my beliefs in being Pro-life. It's all really starting to... Just fade away, I guess.
I don't know why, but I don't believe it when I'm saying it
See, it's weird. I used to be really strong in the way I supported being pro-life, but lately I've been considering the other side. The pro-choice side.
Neither side makes sense to me anymore, when I look at it objectively like this. I don't believe either side is really right, anymore. And I'm considering a position of apathy would be best for me.
I don't get it. I don't know why things are different, but I actually thought that it didn't really make sense for me to be against abortion. I actually thought: "Not my child, not my money, not my choice, not my body, not my business."
Now... That's not to say I'm pro-choice. I still think it's wrong to kill, and I know that the fetus is a person. I just don't see it as one-sided anymore. I see through a haze, because there are so many arguments that make sense to me on both sides, now. It also doesn't help that it makes me feel bad telling people that they can't make the choice to have an abortion. I've not debated abortion in so long because it makes me feel like this.
Sorry for ranting like this, I just feel kind of disappointed in myself. I've always felt like that for as long as I can remember. It's a matter of realizing what feelings are human, and what feelings are logical. Let's pinpoint it. Where are you "doubting"?
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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:46 am
Doubting?
Well, I guess it comes down to the fact that I don't think it's right to try and dictate what other people do with their lives.
I've always argued that people have free will, and they should exercise it to do what they want without discrimination from the morals of others.
And when I realised that I do that, it made me think about why I think this way, and here I am now, unsure in the middle of it.
What doesn't make sense to me about the pro-life side anymore is the fact that 'It's a child, you can't kill it.' because despite whether it's a child or not, is it my right to dictate it's death or not?
The recent quarrel of the Schiavo case sort of stirred up the proverbial pot as well, and in both instances I think: "It's a death, and I hate it, but is it really my business to dictate this death?" And ultimately I come up with no.
What doesn't, and never has, made sense to me about the pro-choice side is that it's okay because it's not a person. It's always a person, to me. Terri Schiavo was a person, and her death, although sad, was not my choice, or anyone else's choice, to make.
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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:28 am
Mcphee Doubting?
Well, I guess it comes down to the fact that I don't think it's right to try and dictate what other people do with their lives.
I've always argued that people have free will, and they should exercise it to do what they want without discrimination from the morals of others.
And when I realised that I do that, it made me think about why I think this way, and here I am now, unsure in the middle of it.
What doesn't make sense to me about the pro-life side anymore is the fact that 'It's a child, you can't kill it.' because despite whether it's a child or not, is it my right to dictate it's death or not?
The recent quarrel of the Schiavo case sort of stirred up the proverbial pot as well, and in both instances I think: "It's a death, and I hate it, but is it really my business to dictate this death?" And ultimately I come up with no.
What doesn't, and never has, made sense to me about the pro-choice side is that it's okay because it's not a person. It's always a person, to me. Terri Schiavo was a person, and her death, although sad, was not my choice, or anyone else's choice, to make.
That's the difference, because you believe that she wanted and chose to die. If I believed that, I would have supported her death as well. The difference is that the fetuses that they're killing are not choosing to die, they're not wanting to die. It's being decided for them.
Is it's the mother's buisiness to dictate their death? Would you have felt the same way if Schiavo hadn't allegedly told her husband she wanted to die in such a situation?
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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:06 am
toxic_lollipop Mcphee Doubting?
Well, I guess it comes down to the fact that I don't think it's right to try and dictate what other people do with their lives.
I've always argued that people have free will, and they should exercise it to do what they want without discrimination from the morals of others.
And when I realised that I do that, it made me think about why I think this way, and here I am now, unsure in the middle of it.
What doesn't make sense to me about the pro-life side anymore is the fact that 'It's a child, you can't kill it.' because despite whether it's a child or not, is it my right to dictate it's death or not?
The recent quarrel of the Schiavo case sort of stirred up the proverbial pot as well, and in both instances I think: "It's a death, and I hate it, but is it really my business to dictate this death?" And ultimately I come up with no.
What doesn't, and never has, made sense to me about the pro-choice side is that it's okay because it's not a person. It's always a person, to me. Terri Schiavo was a person, and her death, although sad, was not my choice, or anyone else's choice, to make.
That's the difference, because you believe that she wanted and chose to die. If I believed that, I would have supported her death as well. The difference is that the fetuses that they're killing are not choosing to die, they're not wanting to die. It's being decided for them.
Is it's the mother's buisiness to dictate their death? Would you have felt the same way if Schiavo hadn't allegedly told her husband she wanted to die in such a situation?
As for this whole thing, I know that fetuses don't choose to die. I think they deserve life, and they deserve a chance just like everyone else. I don't know why I've started thinking this way, but it just seems to me like... I don't know. It's hard to support the side I believe in the most, because it's not that easy for me to tell people what I want to tell them.
I want to tell people that it's not right that they think they can use Abortion as a subsititute for a condom, and that they can devalue life because they just don't want it. As much as none of that makes sense to me, I just don't think it's my business to tell people to do with their life what I would prefer.
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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:19 am
Well, believe it or not, I come across this problem morally a lot. Not necessarily with abortion, but it's normal. Don't feel disappointed, if people as smart as you didn't start losing faith in prolife, this wouldn't be an issue. It is dangerous to assume that we are smarter, better, and obviously right. We are right, but the minute we decide we are obviously right, we set ourselves up for losing ground the next time a good argument is voiced. Let's face it. We all know people who're prochoice and we all know they're not "Big bad evil dumb wicked sinful idiots" but normal, MORAL for the most part (there's a few on both sides who seem to have no morals...), intelligent people. Both sides have good arguments.
It basically comes down to this though. You don't want to tell someone what to do with themselves, but when it involves harming another person, it becomes a choice you have to make whether to ignore the other's suffering or to infringe upon someone's free will. It's a hard choice to make, but I will tell you, it is the same one abolitionists made. It is the same one people fighting everywhere for human rights need to make.
I can tell my friend I don't like her smoking, but when she's around my asthmatic friend, I tell her not to smoke. Flat out. She doesn't like it, but when it's a danger to someone else, no matter how much free will she has and how legal it is to smoke in front of my friend, it's not right and she shouldn't do it. She could end up hospitalizing my friend. I have an obligation to protect both of my friends, if that means telling my smoking friend to stop smoking even though it is her body, her choice, her right to smoke, I have to do it no matter how much I hate to tell her something she doesn't want to hear.
The hardest part about doing what's right is that it's hard and it's hard to know if it's really right. What if it isn't? What if it's wrong? They make some damn good arguments afterall. I can't tell you what to believe, or which path to take. That is your choice. I can tell you that you are not alone. Countless humans throughout history have been in your shoes. This is the real choice. This is the hard one, this is the choice that stumps many, many people who have no religious zeal or personal experiences left to shield them from doubt. I know which choice I'd rather you make, but it is all up to you. You are a wonderful person, you're smart, you're funny, good-natured, you're a good debator. That view I have of you will not change regardless of the choice you make. I cannot help you here, though. This one is all up to you. You're called upon to choose, and sooner or later, you're going to have to make a choice.
Not to sound harsh, it's just how it is.
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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:38 am
To add onto what Lyme said, do you think it's wrong for elementry schools to tell parents not to pack anything containing peanuts into their childs lunch, because there's a child so severely allergic they could be hospitalized just by breathing it in?
You have the right to eat, and there's nothing wrong with eating peanuts, until you doing so has the potential to seriously harm someone.
(An actual senario from my elementry school when I was in grade 2.)
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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:49 pm
Thanks for putting it into perspective, guys.
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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:53 pm
DId I sound rude? I feel like I sounded very rude, sorry if I did sweatdrop
Edit: Good, I worry...I'm a bit medicated right now and wouldn't be surprised if I slipped in bad words.
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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:18 pm
lymelady DId I sound rude? I feel like I sounded very rude, sorry if I did sweatdrop
I thought that you gave it to me straight. No bullshit, really.
I like what you said. And you're right, it's not your choice to make for me.
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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:17 pm
This pertains to what I consider the pro-choice side's simultaneously weakest and strongest statement.
"Don't like abortion? Don't have one."
The strengths behind this point are evident. It doesn't ask anything of you; it suggests that because you personally will never choose to abort a fetus of your own, abortion simply isn't your problem. Obviously, this concept is relatively easy to sell - it uses pro-choice's most favorable aspect: tolerance.
So, why is it also such a weak statement?
Because as a (relatively) civilized people, we aren't tolerant of quite a number of things - and it's a good thing, too. We aren't tolerant of actions taken by a person that compromise the rights of another person. We aren't tolerant of murder, we aren't tolerant of rape, we aren't tolerant of slavery. We do NOT tolerate the actions of others that take the basic rights of life, liberty, and property from other people. That's empathy, that's compassion, that's love .. and it's nothing to be ashamed of.
Yes, tolerance is a great thing, there's no denying that. But asking to be tolerant of another person's decision to destroy another person's life, a person who has no will to die? I am not ashamed to say that I won't ever be tolerant of that.
Just a little rant. xd
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Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 6:40 am
I just realized something. What Lyme was saying about some people taking the pro-choice side because it's easier to just let people do what they want, than to stand up for what you believe in kinda dealy, reminds me of a Stargate episode. xd
Teal'c's wife dies and his son gets really angry and starts going on about how it's Teal'c's fault because he was fighting this unwinnable war and they should just give up, basically. Anyway Bra'tac says to Rya'c (Teal'c's son.)
"Fighting a war that appears unwinnable does not make ones cause less noble."
Edit: ... Sorry guys, I'll keep my nerdiest at home from now on. xd
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Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 8:20 am
toxic_lollipop I just realized something. What Lyme was saying about some people taking the pro-choice side because it's easier to just let people do what they want, than to stand up for what you believe in kinda dealy, reminds me of a Stargate episode. xd
Teal'c's wife dies and his son gets really angry and starts going on about how it's Teal'c's fault because he was fighting this unwinnable war and they should just give up, basically. Anyway Bra'tac says to Rya'c (Teal'c's son.)
"Fighting a war that appears unwinnable does not make ones cause less noble."
Edit: ... Sorry guys, I'll keep my nerdiest at home from now on. xd Lol! I heart stargate!!!
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Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 8:48 am
symphonic This pertains to what I consider the pro-choice side's simultaneously weakest and strongest statement.
"Don't like abortion? Don't have one."
The strengths behind this point are evident. It doesn't ask anything of you; it suggests that because you personally will never choose to abort a fetus of your own, abortion simply isn't your problem. Obviously, this concept is relatively easy to sell - it uses pro-choice's most favorable aspect: tolerance.
So, why is it also such a weak statement?
Because as a (relatively) civilized people, we aren't tolerant of quite a number of things - and it's a good thing, too. We aren't tolerant of actions taken by a person that compromise the rights of another person. We aren't tolerant of murder, we aren't tolerant of rape, we aren't tolerant of slavery. We do NOT tolerate the actions of others that take the basic rights of life, liberty, and property from other people. That's empathy, that's compassion, that's love .. and it's nothing to be ashamed of.
Yes, tolerance is a great thing, there's no denying that. But asking to be tolerant of another person's decision to destroy another person's life, a person who has no will to die? I am not ashamed to say that I won't ever be tolerant of that.
Just a little rant. xd Exactly. "Don't like slaves? Don't have one." smile
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Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:04 pm
ok well I just wanted to say that I made a promise to myself a while ago that if I ever began to think that abortion is kinda maybe sorta ok I would google picture search the aborted babies and that will get me back in line. Sorry if this annoys anyone I just was thinking that as I read the thing.
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