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 Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:33 pm
First, i'll start off by defining spirituality and religion. (Let me know if you feel that either of these definitions are inaccurate.) Religion: For these purposes, I am referring to most organized religion. This is defined as an organization or group of people that believe in a deity(s) and follow a set of traditions influenced by said deity(s). Spirituality: The state of being spiritual, having a healthy soul or spirit. Alezunde Any argument made straight from the Bible is an iffy one -- the Christian Bible is a piece of text which openly contradicts itself on more than one occasion. (A famous scholar in the middle ages would have his students debate opposite sides to controversial issues, and he would provide each side of the argument with quotes directly from the Bible.)Personally, I believe that using the Christian Bible for anything more than a general guide to life is irrational. I believe that if God exists, they are a perfect being. I believe that a perfect being would not be so selfish as to create life in order to worship and glorify them. Also, if I am mistaken in my beliefs, then a perfect being could forgive me. (If they don't, I suspect I wouldn't enjoy their company.)A common misconception is that spirituality and religion are one and the same. I disagree with this myth. I also disagree with your implications that morality is in order to glorify a deity. I believe that morality leads to spirituality and purity of the spirit -- thus, a more fulfilling existence. I am also of the opinion that purity of the spirit can be achieved without the worship and glorification of a deity. To me, it is like claiming that a book cannot be read unless it is adorned with the proper cover. When I said that existance becomes empty for many religious folk, I meant to say this: Many people of religious tendencies live life without ever questioning their faith. These people base their entire lifestyle upon their religious ideals. These people usually believe what they believe because this is what they've been told to believe. They have no real basis for their beliefs. To me, it seems irrational to base your entire life upon beliefs that have no solid foundation. There should be a point in everyone's life when their beliefs come into question. From there, they will discover the truth. When these people have discovered a truth, they have a foundation for their beliefs - and they may defend these beliefs soundly. I believe that life is empty unless you live it according to your beliefs, and not the beliefs of others that have been imposed upon you. Before you can be certain what beliefs you truly hold, you must embark upon a spiritual journey, which starts with doubting your faith. This is the leap of faith. I believe that the Christian Bible states that God frowns upon blind faith. Doubt your faith, seek the truth, and open your eyes. -Alezunde I'm starting a new topic discussing spirituality and religion. This is not a religious debate!This is a discussion about how spirituality and religion affect each other. This is a direct quote from ron-and-mee's Life and Death topic. I will touch it up later. 3nodding Right now, I have homework... sweatdrop -Alezunde
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:49 am
A direct quote from my reply: Quote: Alezunde, I did doubt my faith, that is the faith of my father, atheism. There are contradictions between New and Old testament, but that is because laws changed. However, where are there other contradictions? (I would honestly like to know) God is certainly a perfect being - though I do not find him creating us to be selfish. Secondly, as we are imperfect we cannot know God's reasons, we are finite. I do center my life around my faith, and find it extremely fulfilling. What do you believe to be the 'purity of the soul'? To me, humans are sinners, we are a fallen world. Only, and yes ONLY, God can make us pure. You also mention 'a truth'. I believe in one absolute truth - I do not see the concept of 'everyone is right'. There are relative truths, such as literary analysis. If you can provide enough evidence to support your claims, yes, you are correct. However, the universe, as a whole has one Truth - its one past, present, and future. To me, the existence of time forces such a truth.
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:41 am
I think one has to be careful in assuming that a person just lets themselves be brainwashed by a faith, accepting it blindly without question. Even when I was six and seven years old, I didn't accept what I was being taught as a Catholic blindly. And because I questioned it, I decided very quickly therafter that it was not interesting or fulfilling for me. Granted I've always been one of the questioning types, but many others also question what they're told as well.
But before I go further, I think there are two things that need to be set up in this thread, and Alezunde, as you stared the thread, you should probably be the one to set these up.
We need operational definitions for both religion and spirituality. Operational, because it is obvious that everybody has different definitions for these words, and we need to find one we can agree upon for the purposes of this discussion. I get the sense that when you speak of 'religion' you're only talking about organized religion with dogma, and not all religions have either of these. Setting out your definitions would help clear up some questions I have on your post.
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:00 am
Starlock I think one has to be careful in assuming that a person just lets themselves be brainwashed by a faith, accepting it blindly without question. Even when I was six and seven years old, I didn't accept what I was being taught as a Catholic blindly. And because I questioned it, I decided very quickly therafter that it was not interesting or fulfilling for me. Granted I've always been one of the questioning types, but many others also question what they're told as well. But before I go further, I think there are two things that need to be set up in this thread, and Alezunde, as you stared the thread, you should probably be the one to set these up. We need operational definitions for both religion and spirituality. Operational, because it is obvious that everybody has different definitions for these words, and we need to find one we can agree upon for the purposes of this discussion. I get the sense that when you speak of 'religion' you're only talking about organized religion with dogma, and not all religions have either of these. Setting out your definitions would help clear up some questions I have on your post. Good idea. I will do that as soon as I get the chance. 3nodding Hehe - Former catholic as well? I'm the same in that respect. xd -Alezunde
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:15 am
Former atheist here.
Alezunde, I don't mean to rush you, but can you show me examples of contradictions in the bible?
Also, addressing the issue of 'questioning': Often when I state I'm Christian, I tend to get told a sort of general assumption, 'well, you're only Christian because your parents are (incorrect), and you haven't quested enough (incorrect as well).' It saddens me that others automatically assumed I haven't researched anything, and am blindly accepting, purely on the basis of the fact I'm Christian.
As for fulfillment, to me, I found atheism to be a dead end. There was nowhere to go - nothing to be done, it left me with an emptiness, and many unanswered questions. As for Christianity, there is constant growing and richness, for me.
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:36 pm
Quote: Many people of religious tendencies live life without ever questioning their faith. These people base their entire lifestyle upon their religious ideals. These people usually believe what they believe because this is what they've been told to believe. They have no real basis for their beliefs. I agree. I think it's well illustrated by an earthseed poem I have. (Sorry to be bringing my religion into the mix, but this is an important focus in Earthseed) Beware:
All to often,
We say
What we hear others say.
We think
What we’re told that we think.
We see
What we’re permitted to see.
Worse!
We see what we’re told that we see.
Repetition and pride are the keys to this.
To hear and to see
Even an obvious lie
Again
And again and again
May be to say it,
Almost by reflex
Then to defend it
Because we’ve said it
And at last to embrace it
Because we’ve defended it
And because we cannot admit
That we’ve embraced and defended
An obvious lie.
Thus, without thought,
Without intent,
We make
Mere echoes
Of ourselves-
And we say
What we hear others say. I have been told numerous times that I am not spriitual because my religion does not "worship" a deity or anything of the nature come to think of it... Either way, people clearly define spirituality in different respects- many associating it much to closely with religion. Fo me, being spiritual isn't about religion nessessarily, but rather respect, awareness, and comfort with accepting life and possibly what is beyond/above life. I contradict myself, I am sure, in this quote by mentioning the idea of a supreme being or an afterlife, but you must agree there is a thin line seperating the two. And indeed, the subjects overlap on several occasions. Also operational definitions would help to further refine my answer. However, seeing the difficulty in doing so on the terms in question, I fear this minute discussion may lead off topic as it grows in audience.
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:30 pm
I would like to contribute to this disscussion, but sadly i have no clue what spirtuality really is, hell the only thing i know is that girls who say :im not riligeous, im spiritual" that only means they want people to like them, and arnt either of the two and end up being bitches.
any way, can soem one define spirtuality
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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:29 am
ImNotaFashionStatment I would like to contribute to this disscussion, but sadly i have no clue what spirtuality really is, hell the only thing i know is that girls who say :im not riligeous, im spiritual" that only means they want people to like them, and arnt either of the two and end up being bitches. any way, can soem one define spirtuality Well, I think Al is going to get to that, as I asked him to set up operational definitions for the purposes of this thread. I think a problem with the confusions of these definitions is a lot of people have extremely narrow definitions of religion, and anything that doesn't fit in that is just 'spirituality.' For instance, there are a lot of people who say religion MUST include organization, and MUST include worship of a deity. This is a pretty narrow view of religions, and so a lot of systems that should be called religions end up getting labeled as 'spiritual' practices.
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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:40 am
Woo! Hectic times!
I will post as soon as I can!
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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:24 am
Aeonian.life God is certainly a perfect being - though I do not find him creating us to be selfish. Secondly, as we are imperfect we cannot know God's reasons, we are finite. I do center my life around my faith, and find it extremely fulfilling. What do you believe to be the 'purity of the soul'? To me, humans are sinners, we are a fallen world. Only, and yes ONLY, God can make us pure. Firstly, I do not believe it necessary to know God's intentions. If God exists, then he a perfect being: free of hate, free of prejudice, free of all the things that cause negativity in people, and completely understanding and forgiving of all people. If he is not this perfect being that I envision, then I would rather forsake him as a deity. Secondly, I do not believe that only God can make us pure in spirit. It really makes no sense to me. For example: Person A believes in God, and lives life in the purest manner possible. Person A loves all others unconditionally, and strives to affect the world around them in a positive manner. Person B lives life in exactly the same manner as Person A, with one small difference: Person B does not believe in God. The possible claim that Person B could not live life in exactly the same manner as Person A without God's guidance is ridiculous. Person B could easily draw the same conclusions as Person A from simple life experience. Also, the idea that God would condemn Person B simply for not believing is unfair. If God is so prejudiced, then I'd rather not be a follower. Aeonian.life Former atheist here. Alezunde, I don't mean to rush you, but can you show me examples of contradictions in the bible? Also, addressing the issue of 'questioning': Often when I state I'm Christian, I tend to get told a sort of general assumption, 'well, you're only Christian because your parents are (incorrect), and you haven't quested enough (incorrect as well).' It saddens me that others automatically assumed I haven't researched anything, and am blindly accepting, purely on the basis of the fact I'm Christian. As for fulfillment, to me, I found atheism to be a dead end. There was nowhere to go - nothing to be done, it left me with an emptiness, and many unanswered questions. As for Christianity, there is constant growing and richness, for me. Sadly, I do not know the Christian Bible well enough to provide you with any examples at the moment. However, when I am able, I will find the name of that scholar for you. I admit that I have been making some unfair assumptions regarding your personal beliefs. I apologize for that. I respect that you have been able to reach a set of religious beliefs on your own. 3nodding I urge that you do not limit your beliefs to one source though. Even if you remain Christian, study other religions -- you may stumble across a bit of spiritual wisdom which you would not otherwise. That bit of new wisdom will help you just a bit further down the path of life, and perhaps make the going easier. I have tended to look at the world with a bit of an analytical mind. If something does not ultimately make sense, I often conclude that it is most probably false. In a very dumbed down explanation: I believe that the universe is akin to a huge machine: everything has its place and function -- and nothing will work outside of the boundaries of the rules that govern the universe. At this point, I believe that God, in the conventional sense, would most probably have to operate outside of the bounds. Therefore, he most probably does not exist in the conventional sense. (I have theories on how God could exist though -- I am completely nuetral at this point, and my opinion could swing either way, provided I was presented with the proper evidence.)However, even with my general aversion towards organized religion, I believe that as a person I have developed a very healthy spritual philosophy. Not one much different than the fundamental beliefs of most religions. I am a huge advocate of many of the fundamental beliefs of religion in general -- my problem is how these religions go about teaching these beliefs to others. Most people entirely miss the point, and screw things up. Oftentimes these people will become too strong an advocate for their religion and try to force it upon others. To me, even 'glorifying the word of God' comes awfully close to pushing a set of beliefs upon another person. I strongly support good advice -- but good advice can be given without involving religion. Even if the advice is derived from a religious source. (Such as the Christian Bible.) Also, I doubt that God would care if his word was glorified or not. As long as his advice gets passed on in order to benefit the people of the world, the purpose of his words has been fulfilled. I am glad though, to hear that you have made your choice of religion personally. 3nodding bonkiep I have been told numerous times that I am not spriitual because my religion does not "worship" a deity or anything of the nature come to think of it... What is your religion, if I may ask? -Alezunde
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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:21 pm
Since you've gone and defined religion for me, according to your definition I 100% agree with you. Of course, my religious system doesn't fall under the criterion of the definition in the first post, so inherently I have to agree that such a narrow definition of religion is required for spirituality. I rarely define religion in the terms you have, as it is too restrictive (pretty much cuts out a large swath of religious systems out there).
One question this subject begs to get resolved, though, is where is the line drawn between religion and philosophy? When does a philosophy become religious? Or when does religion become philosophy? Everybody holds some sort of philosophy(s) they use to get thorugh life and unify it together. To me, if you have a unifying philosophy of life, that is, for most purposes, a religion. Not everybody has a unifying philosophy of life... rather they have scattered and often contradictory chunks of philosophy floating around in their heads and behavior.
But... the argument above is far from refined, and I'd like to see what you guys have to say. 3nodding
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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:05 pm
Yo Al, I read your post, more specifically the part about the universe being a machine.( yes i have to read the dumb version crying ) And from what I have come to think after these forums and my own life is that you need to believe that god can work out side of the boundaries and all that fun stuff. That for religion organized or not, you need to have faith that he is above the system. So if you say that you can't have a religieon. I wasn't sure if you meant you had a religieon of if you agreed with their fundemental beliefs.
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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:52 pm
I am against the idea of blind faith.
-Alezunde
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Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 5:53 am
I may be wrong here, but isn't another difference between the two ritual? Don't all religions have at least one ritual that people follow, whereas with spirituality there are none?
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Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:20 pm
Alezunde I am against the idea of blind faith. -Alezunde Ha I have a feeling that Al will totally obliterate me if I try to challenging him. sweatdrop Oh yeah, do you care that I call you Al, I don't think that we are close friends , so some might deem that disrespectful. Any way, back to the matter at hand. You say that your against the idea of blind faith. But in the extent of my knowledge their is no proof saying that there is a god. I know I'm probably not reading into this enough, but even if its religion or spirituality(sp) you need to know that their is some higher being out there right?
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