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how important is judaism for the state of israel?
  very
  not very
  not at all
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ZonkotheSane

PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 5:22 pm


haaretz
A.B. Yehoshua's remarks at the recent conference of the American Jewish Committee predictably kicked up a storm on both sides of the ocean. In Israel people charged that it is not true that Israelis are indifferent to the fate of Diaspora Jewry, and in the United States they said that were it not for their continuous aid and staunch support on behalf of Israel, the country would not have survived. On both sides, again and as always, this was the usual paternalistic reaction. We know what is good for you, we help you. Without us you will not survive.

But Yehoshua's remarks about the relations between Israel and the Diaspora, as infuriating as they may be, disturb me less than the way he described his own identity: My identity is Israeli, he said. The Jewish religion does not play a role in my life; it is the territory and the language that build my identity.

This definition of identity grants a bill of divorcement to the Jewish people, to the Jewish heritage, to 3,000 years of culture, creativity, prayer, rituals, tradition and everything that is subsumed in the term Judaism, and shows a preference for the Israeli "nation," which "arose from the sea" 100 years ago. For Yehoshua -- and many, many others in Israel -- the only thing that is important, existential and relevant from the Jewish perspective is what happens here, in Israel; everything outside Israel is obsolete and its fate is to be lost. In making this claim, Yehoshua undermines and weakens the justification for the State of Israel.

The internal debate among us here on the question of the country's borders, and the discussion of the correct way to achieve peace in our region, derive entirely from the assumption that the State of Israel has a right to exist - morally, legally and historically. This assumption faces constant questioning. The Hamas people try to undermine it, as do many other leaders in the Palestinian and Arab world. And many intellectuals in the Western world, who have adopted the Arab narrative that sees in us an anachronistic remnant of old colonialism, also try to undermine this assumption. Facing these debilitating forces is the belief held by many others in the world in the Jewish people's right to a national state in its historical homeland. We can win the struggle between these two approaches only if we ourselves, those of us who live in Zion, believe this and feel this way.

Ultra-Orthodox disciples of the Gaon from Vilna who immigrated to the Land of Israel in the 18th century, Zionist socialists at the end of the 19th century, and assimilated Jews from Soviet Russia who fought for their right to immigrate at the end of the 20th century -- they had nothing in common with regard to their perception of the Jewish tradition. However, all of them saw themselves as partners in the realization of the same ancient dream, the ancient Jewish prayer to return to the Land of Israel. All of them saw themselves as part of a special people and of the unique historical process of the return to Zion. This belief was the source of their strength and the only guarantee of their success.

There is no Zionism without Judaism and there never has been. Just as the Israeli people has never had a right to the Land of Israel. Only the Jewish people. It was the Jewish people that received the Balfour Declaration, and it was they who were granted by the United Nations the legal right to establish a state. It was the Jewish people that returned to its ancient homeland, for which it had prayed and longed for, for 2,000 years. For if we are talking about the Israeli "people" -- how is the right of a "people" that has existed for about 100 years greater than or equal to that of the Palestinians, who have been living on their land for about 300 years? What really distinguishes it from other colonial projects that have vanished from the earth?

The discussion of our right to the land and the war between our narrative and theirs is not a purely philosophical discussion. At least not in the eyes of the Palestinian leaders. When the leaders of Hamas, like Yasser Arafat in his day, were or are prepared to consider recognition of the fact of Israel's existence, but not its right to existence, they are not playing word games. That is why Arafat reiterated over and over again his supposedly historical claims with regard to the absence of the connection between the Temple Mount and the Jewish people. It was clear to him that the historical connection that is anchored and based in Jewish tradition is the basis for the existence of the State of Israel, and without it, the state will disappear, just as it "appeared from the sea."

The difference between Israeli identity according to Yehoshua and Jewish identity is exactly the difference between the fact of existence and the right to exist. The difference is between a group of people that lives on a piece of land and speaks the Hebrew language, and the descendants of a people that is scattered throughout the world, who have returned to their historic homeland.

If, heaven forbid, we cut ourselves off from the chain that links us to the Jewish people, if we cut ourselves off from 3,000 years of Judaism, if we cut ourselves off from being the realization of 2,000 years of Jewish hope -- for next year in Jerusalem -- then we will lose the right to our existence. And in losing that right, we will be lost.

Perhaps the Jews of the Diaspora were insulted by Yehoshua's blunt remarks, but we, the Jews of the Land of Israel, we must rise up against them, for this is a matter of the very fact of our existence.
PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 5:42 pm


um...what?

Macaroni Jesus


Proudly_Jewish

PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 7:01 pm


3K years of our religion and culture? I thought it was the year 5766 in our calendar?
PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 7:24 pm


Proudly_Jewish
3K years of our religion and culture? I thought it was the year 5766 in our calendar?
3000 years since the torah was given, give or take a few hundred. 5766 is the count of years from the completion of creation.

ZonkotheSane


nathan_ngl
Crew

PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 12:29 am


Darn I missread the poll xd , I thought it was "religion" xd .

Well, of course judaism is important for israel, but the question is the religion... the state currently doesn't give a damn about it... sad
PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 12:34 am


nathan_ngl
Darn I missread the poll xd , I thought it was "religion" xd .

Well, of course judaism is important for israel, but the question is the religion... the state currently doesn't give a damn about it... sad


Ive always noticed that when governmental bodies support a religion it causes problems

Macaroni Jesus


Lady Pocky

PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 8:49 am


Donovinhs Knight
nathan_ngl
Darn I missread the poll xd , I thought it was "religion" xd .

Well, of course judaism is important for israel, but the question is the religion... the state currently doesn't give a damn about it... sad


Ive always noticed that when governmental bodies support a religion it causes problems


But wasn't the whpole point of Israel being formed in 1948 for it to be a Jewish State and a place for Jews to call home when shunned by the rest of the world?
PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 9:19 am


Lady_Pocky
Donovinhs Knight
nathan_ngl
Darn I missread the poll xd , I thought it was "religion" xd .

Well, of course judaism is important for israel, but the question is the religion... the state currently doesn't give a damn about it... sad


Ive always noticed that when governmental bodies support a religion it causes problems


But wasn't the whpole point of Israel being formed in 1948 for it to be a Jewish State and a place for Jews to call home when shunned by the rest of the world?


yes, but everybody seems to forget that elsewhere rolleyes

darkphoenix1247
Vice Captain


nathan_ngl
Crew

PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 6:17 pm


Lady_Pocky

But wasn't the whpole point of Israel being formed in 1948 for it to be a Jewish State and a place for Jews to call home when shunned by the rest of the world?


Well yes, it was built as a state of jews, but it's more like a sanctuary than anything... The only place you can be safe from boycotting or being thrown out of the country. They honestly don't care about the judaism itself... It's really sad... sad . They wouldn't care if it was a different land, as long as the world would let us make a state there.
PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 6:37 pm


Lady_Pocky
Donovinhs Knight
nathan_ngl
Darn I missread the poll xd , I thought it was "religion" xd .

Well, of course judaism is important for israel, but the question is the religion... the state currently doesn't give a damn about it... sad


Ive always noticed that when governmental bodies support a religion it causes problems


But wasn't the whpole point of Israel being formed in 1948 for it to be a Jewish State and a place for Jews to call home when shunned by the rest of the world?


well yeah. Ive heard from my Israeli uncle that Israel was more created as a big "sorry for not stoping hitler sooner" thing, but then my Israeli teacher who taught me some classes before my bar mitzvah said it was as a jewish home. It confuses me much.

But anyway, I just see that in the current state of the world, that when having religious based countries...things go awry

Macaroni Jesus


nathan_ngl
Crew

PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:55 am


Donovinhs Knight
Lady_Pocky
Donovinhs Knight
nathan_ngl
Darn I missread the poll xd , I thought it was "religion" xd .

Well, of course judaism is important for israel, but the question is the religion... the state currently doesn't give a damn about it... sad


Ive always noticed that when governmental bodies support a religion it causes problems


But wasn't the whpole point of Israel being formed in 1948 for it to be a Jewish State and a place for Jews to call home when shunned by the rest of the world?


well yeah. Ive heard from my Israeli uncle that Israel was more created as a big "sorry for not stoping hitler sooner" thing, but then my Israeli teacher who taught me some classes before my bar mitzvah said it was as a jewish home. It confuses me much.

But anyway, I just see that in the current state of the world, that when having religious based countries...things go awry


Israel is different. We are the jewish nation. We are meant to be religious. We have a relgious reason to be in this land, so we should have a religious state too!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:24 am


nathan_ngl
Israel is different. We are the jewish nation. We are meant to be religious. We have a relgious reason to be in this land, so we should have a religious state too!


Yeah, but in the current state of the world, especially that region, do you think its wise? Im not saying that it should never happen, so dont think Im not for a religious state of israel.

Macaroni Jesus


nathan_ngl
Crew

PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:25 am


Donovinhs Knight
nathan_ngl
Israel is different. We are the jewish nation. We are meant to be religious. We have a relgious reason to be in this land, so we should have a religious state too!


Yeah, but in the current state of the world, especially that region, do you think its wise? Im not saying that it should never happen, so dont think Im not for a religious state of israel.


I know what you mean, but look at what happened to Israel since it wasn't built on the base of torah and middos. Prositution, stealing, injustice - just like any other state - and Israel is not supposed to be just any other state!

I don't think the alternative (non-religious state) is any better than this, whether it be giving up "gush katif" to the arabs because you really don't know why you're living there, or because Bush made you, or be it having a Prime-minister that has a son that ripped millions of dollars off the ministry, and wasn't put behind bars because his father layed it off. Is this the state we wanted to build?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:10 am


I agree with Nathan surprised I mean, you can't force religion on people if they don't want it forced on them, but to some extent it has to be done. Is power cut off on Shabbat in Israel (eg lights, TV, computers, etc)? It should be. Driving, working in any way, etc also should be illegal. Don't want to go to shul? Fine. But at least try to be respectful of some Shabbat traditions confused

Israel must be a Jewish nation. G-d promised us Israel, it's ours. We should use it to keep Jewish traditions alive.

Proudly_Jewish


MANNOWAR

PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 9:28 am


Proudly_Jewish
I agree with Nathan surprised I mean, you can't force religion on people if they don't want it forced on them, but to some extent it has to be done. Is power cut off on Shabbat in Israel (eg lights, TV, computers, etc)? It should be. Driving, working in any way, etc also should be illegal. Don't want to go to shul? Fine. But at least try to be respectful of some Shabbat traditions confused

Israel must be a Jewish nation. G-d promised us Israel, it's ours. We should use it to keep Jewish traditions alive.

a good point but shouldn't a Jewish state take account all branches of Judaism(ie Reform, Reconstructive...)
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