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this thread was born from a response i wrote for another gay marriage debate thread, but i thought it best to cut out all the bullshit responses and post in a new thread

it isnt nearly as simple as you think. we live in america, which means regardless of what you believe or stand for, the laws in this country were founded on christian principles, therefore all the laws are tainted as such. that is important in understanding why the term marriage is so fought over.

marriage, in the strictest christian sense, it only between a man and a woman, also, it is a union accepted and approved by God. that is what marriage is to christians, and it is unchangeable, because their faith and belief stands even in the face of logic and reason. there is no turning of the christians to your cause. all logic fails in the presence of faith.

there are civil unions, but the gay community just isnt happy with that, even though civil unions can provide the very same benefits as a marriage. a civil union is more of a legal standing than anything else, merely bringing forth the lawful benefits of marriage without the religious tinge to it. marriage, on the other hand, can never be between a gay couple, in the strictest sense of the term. but civil unions are entirely possible (though there are only certain states which allow this)

mind you, im presenting this so everyone who cares to read can have a glance at the opposing viewpoint, to know what you stand against and can probably never overcome. faith isnt something to be taken lightly, so tread with care kiddies. should anyone flame me for this, well, you then become the igoramous for denying knowledge, especially so for such a hot subject.
now, onto my question for you folks. can anyone tell me why marriage is specifically sought after? why not civil unions for all?

i really want this thread to inform more than anything else, not to turn into another pity party for gay issues, like too many threads end up:
"yeah! youre right! its not fair and im gonna agree with you and love you because you support my cause! everyone who thinks otherwise is automatically a homophobe and wrong!" sadly, thats the gist of many responses i see, not just in this guild either. lets keep it intelligent eh?

so you know, i expect, and truly hope for a clean response. none of that txt tlk bullshit. spell and type correctly, because here on the internet among intelligent folk, crappy grammar does weaken your standing. also, dont give half baked responses. none of that two or three sentence crap that you expect to get your point across.
discuss:
can anyone tell me why marriage is specifically sought after? why not civil unions for all?

...And there goes the intelligence. confused

i see your point. so as far as i can see, it all comes down to being misinformed and misled.(correct me if im wrong)

civil unions, in reality, arent much different than marriage, that much i have learned. i guess i fail to see any rational reason why the issue isnt for legalized civil unions across the board instead of legalized marriage. perhaps it is the standard of which americans grew up with, 'marriage' that does it. anything outside of that norm, i can imagine, would make anyone in a civil union feel like a standout...if not cheated to a sense.

nonetheless, people have to understand that the christian church will never advocate such a thing. i myself am not christian, but ive talked extensively with someone who knows the faith well about this. i wish the church could be more accepting of the issue, even if it would only mean they dont condemn and shun gay couples, instead of outright denouncing gay marriage and gays in general. perhaps if the movement were for legalized civil unions in all states, then perhaps the issue wouldnt be so controversial among the church in america.
thats my current standing on it, feel free to say otherwise

An interesting question you've posed, stevetom. And some interesting if rather biased responses from those who feel Civil Unions should be an acceptable alternative to Marriage. It's interesting to me to note that those who feel Civil Unions should be the rule are of a Christian or other religious faith. Too bad that the one response for Marriage was nothing more than an emotional tirade. Now, let me give you the intellectual, logical reasons why many homosexuals are demanding Marriage equality:

This is the definition of the word "Marriage" as sited by Merriam-Webster

1 a (1) : the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law (2) : the state of being united to a person of the same sex in a relationship like that of a traditional marriage b : the mutual relation of married persons : WEDLOCK c : the institution whereby individuals are joined in a marriage
2 : an act of marrying or the rite by which the married status is effected; especially : the wedding ceremony and attendant festivities or formalities
3 : an intimate or close union

In particular, I want to draw attention to the fact that no religious meaning is either stated or inferred by the definitions. "Marriage" is simply an intimate joining of two things. The religious aspect of marriage and whether or not a religious sect will allow it is up to that religious sect. Those out there fighting for that conversion are of little interest to me, though I applaud them for their attempts and wish them luck. My interest is in the legal aspect of marriage.

The separation of church and state exists because, while the US was founded under so-called Christian ideals, our founding fathers knew these principals could be biased. The immigrants who came here were running from religious persecution and experienced a great deal of bias. They were persecuted to such an extent as to make sure such biases could NEVER apply to our government, a fact that many religious factions, including the Christian sect, often choose to forget or turn a blind eye to.

The US is unique in not having a particular set religion here to be followed. In this country, we have the freedom granted us to believe in God, Allah, Buddha, Martian Moth Creatures, Gillian Anderson...the list is endless. No other country in the world as we know it offers that freedom, though many may claim that they do. Legally and Constitutionally, they do not, even if they do not acknowledge those laws or act upon them. Escape from religious persecution is still one of the biggest reasons many people immigrate to the US. Thus, the argument that Marriage should be between a man and a woman, solely based on religious belief, is faulty and simply unconstitutional. And also the reason why so many are fighting to create a constitutional amendment to make sure this right can never be granted to those of different sexual orientations.

Despite the belief that Civil Union and Marriage are identical, legally they are not. There are certain rights denied in a Civil Union that are not denied in a Marriage. Marriage, for example is recognized in every state of the union. If I and my male husband were to move from Florida to Arkansas, I would still be his partner, and deserving of recognition legally as such, to visit him in the hospital if he becomes ill, to make responsible medical decisions on his behalf, to receive monetary compensation from insurers were he to die, to have the right to make sure he is buried as he wishes it, and to receive his estate and possessions according to his will. Civil Union does not allow that security. If I and my female lesbian partner were to move from Florida to Arkansas (provided Florida were to allow Civil Unions, which it currently does not), we would not be afforded any legal rights at all. Anyone could object to my right to care for her, doctors could ignore me and treat her as they wish to, her death would would very well send all of her possessions to the state to sell at auction, leaving me with no claim to anything that we may have both worked towards during our lives together. Also, Civil Unions are not recognized by the federal government, so couples would not be able to file joint-tax returns or be eligible for tax breaks or protections the government affords to married couples. Continuing, A United States citizen who is married can sponsor his or her non-American spouse for immigration into this country. Those with Civil Unions have no such privilege. And these are just a few of the ways Marriage and Civil Unions diverge. So, you see, there are a GREAT DEAL of differences, all legal and NOT A ONE religious in nature.

As I said, my interest is legality. Religions can do as they please and rule as they will. I am not asking for Christianity to say homosexuality is not a sin (though I'd love it if they would and some already do) no more than I would ask a fundamentalist Muslim to stop believing that women are inferior to men and are property of their husbands (although, again, I would love it if they would).

The base argument for Legal Marriage rights is not a religious one, it's a legal one. It's not the difference between a bruised apple and a fresh one off the tree, it's the difference between a whole apple and a sliver of one, and the expectation that the sliver can fill a belly just as well as the entire fruit. If such a thing as a Civil Marriage exists (for those unsure, this is a marriage performed by a Magistrate and recognized by law as a formal union) then why are we arguing the legality of whom is allowed to have one based on gender? Why are legislators all for creating Civil Unions, a completely separate and unequal status option when Civil Marriage, a LEGAL AND NON-RELIGIOUS, alternative already exists?

The only answer I can give is this: Because while it's constantly argued that Homosexuals have an agenda, Heterosexuals have their own, and that agenda is, "I am normal and you are not." That sense of normalcy is threatened by this and many of the legal questions posed by offering equal rights to all and not to "normal" people only.

Now you have the reasons. No pity party asked for nor expected.

Any questions?

EDIT - At the time of my first posting, His_Excellency's post hadn't come in on my screen, so please don't feel I ignored you or your view for Marriage. *hugs*

I would like to add my two cents in using a picture:



I will elaborate further later. I do not have the time at the moment. >_<

thanks all for your responses. ive wanted to get to the heart of this matter for quite a while, but all i see in the media is the same old bias arguments. i wanted to hear it from someone who knew, for that, thanks. yes dana, i am heavily influenced by christianity, but its hard to see the world outside of your own perspective. as such, i am always glad to see things from another point of view

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