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 Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 6:21 pm
Discuss religion here. smile Please be polite when at all possible, and follow Gaia's rules and ToS.
Read: If you are going to disagree with someone about something, that's fine, just be respectful and explain why you disagree.
If you have a problem with a guild member that can't be dealt with yourself in a proper manner, feel free to PM me.
Go nuts. wink
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Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 7:45 pm
Education.
That's my number one thing. You don't have to know EVERYTHING about your religion, but you should at least know some. There's freedom of choice, and if you CHOOSE to be a religion that, if you're a female, requires you to wear skirts, you should be allowed to.
I feel that there should be a comparative religion class taught in public high schools, and I believe should be required for private schools, and made for homeschoolers to have to attend, where for each unit, if possible, a member, a well-educated member of that religion teaches that class. Where not possible, the teaching should be done in as unbiased and respectful manner as possible.
A young adult, if they know the options out there, and know that people believe differently, is capable of making their own decisions. *shrug* As long as you aren't harming anyone else, and you know the options out there, I don't see anything wrong with it.
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Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 9:04 pm
Saying that comparative religion should be taught in schools is like saying that it is important for children/people to choose a religious path, regardless of which one.
Are you going to bring in the Satanists, Scientologists, the Voodun Priests?
Granted Warren Jeffs is on the FBI's most wanted now, but what about the Fundemental Church of Mormonism? I'm sure the section on polygamy and child brides will be good.
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Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 9:53 pm
I disagree. Religion should not find its way into public high schools. If a young person is that curious about a religion, it is not that hard to do research and find someone who understands it. The time being used to teach these students little bits of religion can be better served for helping with Math, english, technology, and other core curriculum. Things that will help a student achieve his or her goals.
The whole world does not revolve around how much you know about a particular relgion. But, it is important for a young person to be let out in the world knowing health, science, math and so forth.
To FORCE students to take anything that has to do with religion, just irks me. You do not NEED a religion to be a GOOD person, you do not NEED a religion to be successful in this world, and religion is not a requirement for ANY career. Religion comaprison or any Relgion should not be a requirement for graduation in public high schools.
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Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 4:20 pm
Yi Min I disagree. Religion should not find its way into public high schools. If a young person is that curious about a religion, it is not that hard to do research and find someone who understands it. The time being used to teach these students little bits of religion can be better served for helping with Math, english, technology, and other core curriculum. Things that will help a student achieve his or her goals.
The whole world does not revolve around how much you know about a particular relgion. But, it is important for a young person to be let out in the world knowing health, science, math and so forth.
To FORCE students to take anything that has to do with religion, just irks me. You do not NEED a religion to be a GOOD person, you do not NEED a religion to be successful in this world, and religion is not a requirement for ANY career. Religion comaprison or any Relgion should not be a requirement for graduation in public high schools.
I know. Heck, I forgot to mention I'd want an atheist to come in and explain their views. The reason why you need comparative religion is for human relations. I mean... seriously, you have to respect other people's beliefs, unless they are breaking a law (like the polygamists... that's illegal, thus... not allowed. Other than the polygamy, and a few other details, their belief system is fairly similar to LDS). And if I could, I would bring in Satanists, Scientologists, and Voodun Priests. And atheists. I'm dating an atheist, and he's one of the most moral people I know. It's more... I feel that people should see that their way isn't the only way that produces moral people. Maybe a class in high school is going too far, but I worry about these isolated people like the Duggars, or the Fundamentalist Mormons, where they don't learn about others... other than to demonize them, probably. You know?
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Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 8:52 pm
You know, you really can't have one Atheist come in and expect that to be like having a representative from a religious sect. Last I checked, they don't have a unified set of beliefs that tie them all together, just like you can't bring in one Agnostic and have them speak for all of them in the world. They don't have structured belief systems like religions do. I'm agnostic and I know any others I've met don't have beliefs in any way similar to mine. Unlike if you brought in someone from say a specific Lutheran sect, or a Lutheran in general: they have specific beliefs that tie them together and differentiate them from other Christian sects. Atheism and Agnosticism are just too individualized to portray in that manner, is the point I'm getting at.
As for morals, the HS I attended offered electives on Ethics, Ideas that Changed the World, and other classes of the like. But as Yi Min said, anyone interested in different ideas and religions will be reading about them anyway and I also don't believe it has any place as a mandatory course. Religion has no place in public institutions PERIOD. Private schools can teach whatever they wish.
I've always been fascinated by them and started reading up what I could starting at 13. And last I checked, most religions claim to teach tolerance and acceptance, so I find it a bit amusing you feel there's a need for a class to force people to realize other ideas exist and accept them. In theory, this should be part of their religious upbringing already.
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Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 11:05 pm
Pirate Dirge
I've always been fascinated by them and started reading up what I could starting at 13. And last I checked, most religions claim to teach tolerance and acceptance, so I find it a bit amusing you feel there's a need for a class to force people to realize other ideas exist and accept them. In theory, this should be part of their religious upbringing already.
In theory. I was. I know many who weren't. *shrug* And I know intolerant atheists who believe that if you believe in G-d, you're a complete idiot. *shrug* Tolerance... it has to be taught, and many people AREN'T taught it. For an extreme example, look at the Phelps' family. Meh... Like I said, I think the class in high school may be too much, but... I feel that people should have exposure to others religious beliefs.
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Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 11:55 am
I'm not so sure I can agree that tolerance can be taught. Religion is something so incredibly personal and if a student is forced to be taught something about it, it tends not to get the message across as well as searching for it on their own.
There's SO many religions out there and even more different sects and schools of thought for each of them, even those with degrees in theology often specialize in one for a masters, it's that in depth. No matter who you bring in to represent a faith or lack of one, it's not going to be a non-biased, dead on representation. Even within the Catholic faith, there are those religious leaders that disagree on subjects, such as birth control. What would stop parents from wanting their children being pulled out of those courses? It would defeat that purpose of forcing tolerance.
Which makes me think of that subject, tolerance. I think often times people have a misinterpretation of what all tolerance entails. More often than not, you're intolerant and offensive if you disagree with what someone else believes. Tolerance seems to have taken a twist recently, but that's just my personal opinion, not really anything factual behind that. There is a difference between thinking someone is an idiot and saying they are, are both of those being intolerant?
I think it's impossible in this day and age (at least here in the US which is the only place I have personal experience) to not be exposed to different belief systems.
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Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 1:21 pm
Luna... the more I think about it, the more I think you're right, that tolerance can't be taught... but, common courtesy CAN... and needs to be.
And, I think you're wrong about exposure to other belief systems, or at least FAIR exposure. No proof, though, so I'm not gonna argue it.
You know what DOES need to be attempted to be imparted? It can't exactly be taught, but occasionally can be passed on... a love of learning, or at least a desire to look for the answers.
But, I'm also an idealist...
and I strongly believe that a belief system where women wearing skirts is the modest dress IS NOT wrong.
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Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 2:53 pm
Look you can say that this is not about me. But otherwise you would not be bringing up the damned skirt thing again, and using my own wording.
Just because I believe someone's belief system is illogical, flawed, or WRONG does not mean I'm intolerant of it.
Did I say they should not be ALLOWED to wear skirts?
Did I say they were all morons for believing that they should wear skirts?
No, I said I believe that their belief is wrong in MY BELIEF structure.
It is not intolerant to think that two diametrically opposed belief structures would say that the other is wrong.
I have my own personal ethics, morals, and truth. And I don't have to validate any one elses by telling them they are correct in those beliefs. Telling someone "Hey I don't agree with you and I think this completely opposite belief of you" is not intolerance.
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Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 4:54 pm
People confuse tolerance with agreement, which to me is the issue here and in the other thread. Just because someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't mean they're disprespecting you or going out of their way to offend you. Offense implies ill intent and that the party offended feels entitled to an apology. It definitely means you don't accept that others feel differently then yourself.
According to Dictionary.com, the first definition of 'tolerance' is this:
The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others.
For someone who's pushing so hard for tolerance, you're not setting a very fine example of it by recognizing that Nopen is just as entitled to her beliefs as you are to yours. Taking yet another dig is in very poor taste and maybe the one who needs a refresher on tolerance is you. She doesn't agree, what does it matter? When she realized you were upset, she even went out of her way to say she had no intent of doing so and explained her beliefs and feelings on the subject. So give her a break and accept she's not going to agree with you and let the skirt thing go. you don't agree and it's OK.
This is getting way off-course and maybe this was a bad idea, Niko.
But back to the idea that you can force or teach tolerance...this is how I feel on the subject: tolerance can't be taught from a book. It can't be forced upon someone. It can only be learned from example and followed to a certain extent. It's like respect in that way. They develop from seeing it given and I believe it requires a good sense of objectivity. If you're too busy being stuck in your own point of view, you'll never accept how anyone else thinks or feels because it will always be in relation to you, not them, or just a generic situation. But being human and everything in our lives is about our point of view, that's really hard to do. Make it an emotionally charged issue like religion or even politics, it gets exponentially harder. In general, people can't disconnect from the emotional aspects of these things. So while in theory it's great to think everyone can be forced to tolerate each other, it will probably never happen. I think it's too engrained into human nature: it's a survival instinct to be focused on ourselves.
I do, however, think that by setting a good example and affecting one person at a time, the world can become more tolerant. There will never be a 100% tolerant world, or a 100% tolerant person in it.
And with that, I think I'm done because parts of this thread are more petty squabbling then actual debate on the topic.
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Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 9:59 pm
Nopen's entitled to her opinion... I just *sigh* I shouldn't have been debating when I posted that, honestly. I've been having a crappy week, and looking again, I regret what I said. I withdraw, not gracefully, because I've been saying things wrong, and I'm sorry.
*sigh* I should never debate when having emotional issues.
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Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 7:41 pm
I'm still watching the thread. If someone's offended and doesn't want to post anymore, that's fine. As long as this thread doesn't deteriorate into name-calling and insults, I think it's ok here for now. Better here than in the middle of another thread, in my opinion (but that's just me).
Anyways, I was raised Anglican. Over the years, I've sort of moved away from being "just Anglican", and I accumulated a bunch of different beliefs. I believe in some Anglican and Christian things, and yet I believe in some New Age and scientific beliefs and theories.
My boyfriend on the other hand is Daoist. We believe that we have no right to convert anyone else to our religions of choice, and that everyone has the right to choose whichever religion they want to be. If someone wants to criticize us for not following our religions to the "t", that's their choice and their problem. Just as I'm not going to get on someone else's case because they're not Christian or Daoist, etc.
(I think I'm getting off topic, sorry... sweatdrop )
If someone is athiest or Buddhist or whatever, that's fine with me. I'm not going to tell them that they're going to Hell for not believing the same things I do. Just today, I had a friend who's a strict Christian tell me that she didn't approve of my decision to move in with my boyfriend, but that she understands it's my life and therefore my decision. She's come a long way, but she's pushy in a less-forceful way, which while it makes me uncomfortable, I can tolerate it.
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Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 2:43 am
Totally different religious issue, and I'm in a better mood... so maybe it will come out right. (and I'm disavowing my earlier posts... they don't say what I mean... and I have no idea how to rewrite it right.)
Intermarriage- Right, wrong, dealing with families, why yes/no, issues to discuss.
My answers to these. (Personal, what I believe for myself, disagree with me if you wish, it's your perogative, though I feel strongly about a couple of these)
Right- Completely personal, not wrong for everyone, and I have issues with people who, after making their point, continue to, after a polite request, tell you how wrong it is. (This is not directed at ANYONE in this guild, it is latent anger at someone else, so no one here take it personally)
Dealing with families- Not sure on this one.
Issues to discuss- I think this is important. If you're having an intermarriage, and plan on children... what religion will the children be raised in? If your religion requires certain home rituals, is the other partner okay?
I have a friend who's mormon, and another who's Jewish. They're planning on eventually getting married with a Jewish wedding and a Mormon temple sealing. Talking these kinds of things out is IMPORTANT. For example, if you're Jewish... Keeping kosher. Mormons- Caffiene in the house. Muslims- Their dietary rules (quite similar to kosher, and in fact, I've heard that in a pinch, for Muslims, if there isn't a Muslim butcher in town, the Kosher butcher will do). Things like that. What holidays you're gonna celebrate.
Intermarriage is complicated.
And I suddenly have the feeling this is the wrong thread... Nikolita, if it is, delete/move it. Maybe the intermarriage thing could be a thread of it's own? Cause... it is a big deal to some people. *why I shouldn't post at 2:45 am*
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Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 5:31 pm
It's perfectly fine here RoseRose. 3nodding heart
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