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Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 11:00 pm
I have recently been talking to some people about dirty fighting. I have always believed that there is no such thing in a real fight where your life is on the line there are no limits on what you could do to some one as long as you are alive in the end. I was told that Quote: Training dirty fighting is dumb because it's unnecessary. You don't need to train something that takes no skill. Why else do you think they're illegal in sports? I know how much skill it takes because I was traind to use techniques that will keep me alive. How many people realy feel these things are not needed in martial arts every style I know of teaches strikes to the groin, throat and eyes. I once had a talk with a friend about fighting and we started fooling around when he came at me I kicked at his legs I knew he wasent waching his legs because he uses boxing techniques. He told me that I fought dirty I do not understand the idea of there being limits in a fight if I feel threatened I will use what ever it takes to stay alive. Quote: as I said, people who rely solely on dirty tactics can't survive without them because they're not skilled enough. I can't say that I have ever seen a style that only goes for groin shots. Striking weak areas of the body is just one part of martial arts that is a part of the style not the whole thing. I want to here from others about fighting dirty do you think that it is something that is useless do you feel there is such a thing as dirty fighting in a real fight? Quote: I have a high art, I hurt with cruelty those who would damage me. - Archilocus, 650 B.C.
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Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 1:21 am
There's no such thing as dirty fighting in real situations. But there is however steering away from techiques that will get you locked up afterwards. If someone starts on me the first thing I'll do is kick them in the groin but I wouldn't strike to the throat unless my life was in serious danger. i.e. I actively wanted to kill them. Your boxing friend sounds like a retard and should stay in the gym. In TKD sparring the striking zone is limited to above the belt and the front and sides of the body (plus head of course), but if I was sparring somebody, say a kick boxer I wouldn't b***h and moan if they started pounding on my legs, or if a grappler took me to ground and started bending my limbs in unnatural directions. If your friend wanted to box he should have specified that from the beginning and not assumed every other martial art was equally limited in striking area...
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Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 3:15 am
Heh. Back when my dad was a kid, if you kicked someone in a fight, it was considered dirty fighting, and you were a sissy. Oh, how times have changed.
All martial arts are are good ol' fashioned dirty fighting, we just cleaned it up a bit and look cool doing it. xp
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Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 8:31 am
I study one of the prettiest (read: wussiest, according to many) martial arts, and there are plenty of groin strikes, even in the forms. They try to call it something else, but eventually they do have to explain what you're supposedly doing to the invisible man.
However, in sparring sessions there do need to be limits. I take no issue with leg sweeps, etc. Trying to kick out someone's knee, however, must be left for "real" fights, as should throat strikes - at least any with follow-through (in which case it's easiest to just keep them out altogether - sometimes your opponent moves unpredictably, and accidents are better if they don't leave anyone crippled/dead). Limits must always be set to correspond to the level of threat involved. Permanent damage has no place among friends and fellow students.
On the street, now, the first thing I'd be aiming for is a knee. Being a girl, most guys would expect me to aim for the crotch first - it's a typical girly reaction - so they'd either be blocking it or braced for the blow. Therefore, I opt for Target of Choice #2: Knee. As the good book (Kabuki: Circle of Blood) says, "If your opponent cannot stand, he cannot fight." Nor can he chase your arse as you haul tuchus to a safe place and call the police. And, if he's armed (god forbid), it's also more difficult to aim while clutching a ruined knee and sobbing. Remember kids, most aggressors don't actually expect to be hurt in an encounter - they look for an easy victim. Therefore, any real injury really throws them.
As corollary to this, if you're actually ever involved in a street fight, chances are you did something wrong. The two most valuable things a martial artist learns are: 1) How not to act like a potential victim, and 2) How not to act like an irritating a** in need of a beatdown.
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Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 11:24 am
Wolf3001 I have recently been talking to some people about dirty fighting. I have always believed that there is no such thing in a real fight where your life is on the line there are no limits on what you could do to some one as long as you are alive in the end. I was told that Quote: Training dirty fighting is dumb because it's unnecessary. You don't need to train something that takes no skill. Why else do you think they're illegal in sports? Wolf3001 I know how much skill it takes because I was traind to use techniques that will keep me alive. It doesn't take skill to take up a trash can lid and bash someone in the face with it. It doesn't take skill to poke someones eye out. It doesn't take skill to bite. It doesn't take skill to kick someone in the groin (but it does help if you have proper kicking mechanics). If biting, and poking (gouging) took skill, think of how many people would have died as children. Wolf3001 How many people realy feel these things are not needed in martial arts every style I know of teaches strikes to the groin, throat and eyes. I once had a talk with a friend about fighting and we started fooling around when he came at me I kicked at his legs I knew he wasent waching his legs because he uses boxing techniques. He told me that I fought dirty I do not understand the idea of there being limits in a fight if I feel threatened I will use what ever it takes to stay alive. Quote: as I said, people who rely solely on dirty tactics can't survive without them because they're not skilled enough. It's true. Fighting with all you can is smart, but sometimes, groin shots won't work. And I doubt that you'll be able gouge at eyes all the time. Same with biting. Why do you think they have punching, kicking, and grappling? To compliment whatever else you have to work with. Wolf3001 I can't say that I have ever seen a style that only goes for groin shots. Striking weak areas of the body is just one part of martial arts that is a part of the style not the whole thing. But you can't always depend on them. Some people will shrug it off, some won't. It depends on who you're using it on. Wolf3001 I want to here from others about fighting dirty do you think that it is something that is useless do you feel there is such a thing as dirty fighting in a real fight? Again, you are mistaken. Everyone seems to be taking Soul Fighter's comment the wrong way. He said that TRAINING for dirty fighting is useless, not "Dirty fighting is useless". And it is, unless you've had reconstructive jaw surgery, and need to learn how to bite again. Quote: I have a high art, I hurt with cruelty those who would damage me. - Archilocus, 650 B.C. Well, duh.
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Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 12:35 pm
Well, I fence, and groin is valid target area... I've tagged an opponent in the crotch many times, as the parries protecting that area are pretty awkward.
Seriously though, anybody who knows anything about knife fighting or blade work knows that stabs and slashes to the throat, groin, temple, eyes, ect. are not only tought, but encouraged. These are areas with fatal arteries and nerves that can be exploited. Many knife fighting drills consist of a slash under the arm, across the throat finished with a stab in the groin. Others consist of slashes and stabs to the neck and throat, or a stab to the temple. Then of course there is your wrist slashes and stabs, as well as the inner elbow, behind the knee and behind the ankle.
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Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 7:14 pm
I keep hearing things that seem to sound like even if I had the chance to hit an attacker in the groin I wouldent do it because its dirty. I am trying to see how many feel that way I have said that no one uses this stuff all the time that is impossible. If I was in a fight that was geting out of hand I would start to attack places like the throat and eyes I practice these things in class and yes its true that not all people will be effected the same way but no one can take a jab to the eyes and I dout many would shrug off a good hit to the throat. I have been hit in the groin in fights and it didn't stop me but it will slow you down the only time I realy use groin shots is when some one grabs me from behind or if I am realy close.
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Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 7:20 pm
Hylonomus Well, I fence, and groin is valid target area... I've tagged an opponent in the crotch many times, as the parries protecting that area are pretty awkward. Seriously though, anybody who knows anything about knife fighting or blade work knows that stabs and slashes to the throat, groin, temple, eyes, ect. are not only tought, but encouraged. These are areas with fatal arteries and nerves that can be exploited. Many knife fighting drills consist of a slash under the arm, across the throat finished with a stab in the groin. Others consist of slashes and stabs to the neck and throat, or a stab to the temple. Then of course there is your wrist slashes and stabs, as well as the inner elbow, behind the knee and behind the ankle. I would like to learn to fence but there are no schools where I am I have read up on some things. You reminded me one thing I like are the stabs to the foot that I have seen. I have seen knife fighters cut acros the forehead to keep the person blinded with the blood that runs down.
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Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 8:03 pm
When in a life or death situation, I believe that you have to use what you can to stay alive. Why do you suppose self defence clinics are offered to women who don't take a martial art? Training for it is required I find, because you never know what to expect. You gotta be prepared to do anything. However, I'm rather against it when it comes to tournaments. I just find it unfair at those points. But that's just me.
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Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 8:49 pm
Taiyo When in a life or death situation, I believe that you have to use what you can to stay alive. Why do you suppose self defence clinics are offered to women who don't take a martial art? Training for it is required I find, because you never know what to expect. You gotta be prepared to do anything. However, I'm rather against it when it comes to tournaments. I just find it unfair at those points. But that's just me. Well tournaments are a sports thing and things like this are only for realy hurting some one so no you don't do these things in a tournament. I went for a throat strike once when we were doing a drill and my Sifu asked me not to do these things around the newer students. I didn't even think about it the guy that was playing the attacker came at me and I just went for his throat. I blocked and just attacked and if any one is thinking I may do this to some one in any fight because I train my self to do these things I do pull my techniques and would never use such a technique on some one in a fight that was not realy dangerous. This came up once befor some one said if you train this way you may use it in an inappropriate situation.
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Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 1:43 am
******** dirty fighting. The only dirty fighting i would do is elbows to the back of the head after i take their back and am trying to secure the choke!
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Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 9:43 pm
Yvaine I study one of the prettiest (read: wussiest, according to many) martial arts, and there are plenty of groin strikes, even in the forms. They try to call it something else, but eventually they do have to explain what you're supposedly doing to the invisible man. However, in sparring sessions there do need to be limits. I take no issue with leg sweeps, etc. Trying to kick out someone's knee, however, must be left for "real" fights, as should throat strikes - at least any with follow-through (in which case it's easiest to just keep them out altogether - sometimes your opponent moves unpredictably, and accidents are better if they don't leave anyone crippled/dead). Limits must always be set to correspond to the level of threat involved. Permanent damage has no place among friends and fellow students. On the street, now, the first thing I'd be aiming for is a knee. Being a girl, most guys would expect me to aim for the crotch first - it's a typical girly reaction - so they'd either be blocking it or braced for the blow. Therefore, I opt for Target of Choice #2: Knee. As the good book (Kabuki: Circle of Blood) says, "If your opponent cannot stand, he cannot fight." Nor can he chase your arse as you haul tuchus to a safe place and call the police. And, if he's armed (god forbid), it's also more difficult to aim while clutching a ruined knee and sobbing. Remember kids, most aggressors don't actually expect to be hurt in an encounter - they look for an easy victim. Therefore, any real injury really throws them. As corollary to this, if you're actually ever involved in a street fight, chances are you did something wrong. The two most valuable things a martial artist learns are: 1) How not to act like a potential victim, and 2) How not to act like an irritating a** in need of a beatdown. I'll get you some metal boots for your birthday (if I met you), so anyone jumps you steel toe to the testicular area, ouch!
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Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 9:45 pm
here's my trechnique: 1. hard punch to the intestines (your gut) 2. elbow smack to the back of the head (like you). 3. foot to the throat and tell them to surrender ( cause foot + neck = death xp )
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Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 12:13 pm
Wolf3001 Well tournaments are a sports thing and things like this are only for realy hurting some one so no you don't do these things in a tournament. I went for a throat strike once when we were doing a drill and my Sifu asked me not to do these things around the newer students. I didn't even think about it the guy that was playing the attacker came at me and I just went for his throat. I blocked and just attacked and if any one is thinking I may do this to some one in any fight because I train my self to do these things I do pull my techniques and would never use such a technique on some one in a fight that was not realy dangerous. This came up once befor some one said if you train this way you may use it in an inappropriate situation. Oh, I'm very aware that this stuff is only for really hurting people in bad situations, but I mean, it doesn't stop some people from doing so, unfortunately. I have to admit though, I have a different mindset in tournaments than when we're practicing self defence, so I've never really had the problem of using it in a spar. Then again, I'm sure there will be a time. I mean, I've had moments where I've kicked, when we were only suppose to be punching just because it's instinct. Thus, what I need to train in now is mindset again. After all, just sticking to one kind of way is bound to cause trouble.
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Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 3:32 pm
Wolf3001 Hylonomus Well, I fence, and groin is valid target area... I've tagged an opponent in the crotch many times, as the parries protecting that area are pretty awkward. Seriously though, anybody who knows anything about knife fighting or blade work knows that stabs and slashes to the throat, groin, temple, eyes, ect. are not only tought, but encouraged. These are areas with fatal arteries and nerves that can be exploited. Many knife fighting drills consist of a slash under the arm, across the throat finished with a stab in the groin. Others consist of slashes and stabs to the neck and throat, or a stab to the temple. Then of course there is your wrist slashes and stabs, as well as the inner elbow, behind the knee and behind the ankle. I would like to learn to fence but there are no schools where I am I have read up on some things. You reminded me one thing I like are the stabs to the foot that I have seen. I have seen knife fighters cut acros the forehead to keep the person blinded with the blood that runs down. The thrust to the foot is for epee dueling, where the whole body is target area. This comes from first-blood dueling, where it's not necicary to run your target through, but simply draw blood. So stabs to extremeties like wrists, feet, ect. are common. This is why the sport epee has a wider bellguard then the foil, to better protect the hand. However, legs are a common target with any for of bladework. Alot of medieval longsword and greatsword combat consisted of downwar flurries that arc into the thighs or knees of your opponent, to cause serious damage to the arteries, tendons and muscles there that bleed out and immobilize your opponent.
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