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SpazLink

PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:05 pm


If there is one thing I hate about English, it's its sometimes arcane grammar.

For example: subjunctive mood. For most verbs it's simply the basic form of the verb. However, as is common with English, the most common type of word is also the most complex. The copula/linking verb, "to be", has a ridiculously complex subjunctive.

Past first- and second-person subjunctive is "were", third-person is "was", present is "be"... Does anyone know what the deal is?

I know it's for hypothetical situations, so therefore used with things like "if", "that", and "wish". However, in some cases it sounds right, and others it sounds wrong.

If I were rich, I'd be happy. (Although fallacious, it is and sounds correct.)
If I be rich, I am happy. (Apparently correct, although it sounds like it should be: If I am...)

Am I misreading my sources, or has education really become so atrocious that even correct things sound horribly, horribly wrong?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:10 pm


No, you're correct. It's "If I were," and "I wish I were." As well as "It is I," and not 'It is me." People don't even recognize what correct grammar sounds like anymore because it's used so infrequently.

Esmoth


SpazLink

PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:17 pm


Esmoth
No, you're correct. It's "If I were," and "I wish I were." As well as "It is I," and not 'It is me." People don't even recognize what correct grammar sounds like anymore because it's used so infrequently.


Well, I know all this. Pronouns are declined, and thus have accusative cases, and the copula only deals with nominatively cased nouns.

If you read to the bottom, you'd see there was a more specific case about the present subjunctive.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:31 pm


SpazLink
Esmoth
No, you're correct. It's "If I were," and "I wish I were." As well as "It is I," and not 'It is me." People don't even recognize what correct grammar sounds like anymore because it's used so infrequently.


Well, I know all this. Pronouns are declined, and thus have accusative cases, and the copula only deals with nominatively cased nouns.

If you read to the bottom, you'd see there was a more specific case about the present subjunctive.
My point was that correct things sound horribly, horribly wrong because nobody hears correct grammar being used. Not even most of my English teachers use 100% correct grammar.

Esmoth


SpazLink

PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:45 pm


That does not answer my query, though. To my ears, use of the correct pronoun case and past subjunctive sounds right. I've been fortunate to have had decent English teachers as well as kickass Latin teachers, so I've learned grammar well enough.

I still say Latin should be required.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:14 pm


I guess my answer (if I understand your question) is that yes, education today really is atrocious, especially if most teachers can't consistently use perfect grammar.

And yes, Latin really should be required. My college doesn't offer it and I've forgotten a lot of what I learned in high school.

Esmoth


SpazLink

PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:33 am


The question, I suppose, was not exactly clear. Yes, I included that bit about education in it, but it really referred to:

If I be rich, I am happy. (Apparently correct, although it sounds like it should be: If I am...)

The question, to remove any style: is that correct?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:40 am


Dr. Language.

It's an excellent resource for commonly ******** up parts of English. This particular article deals with the I/me issues.

Dino

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SpazLink

PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:40 am


Even that says nothing of the subjunctive.

Perhaps the subjunctive just is not used in such a situation. It works here:
"I demand that I be king!"
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:29 pm


The clause "If I be" in that sentence is not correct. "I be" is old slang, I believe, so is used for things that are meant to sound 'old' or just strange.

I don't have any sources ready to quote on this, so I could be mistaken.

Tolin Kalin

Dapper Waffles


SpazLink

PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 2:00 pm


[ Message temporarily off-line ]
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 2:32 pm


I think the reason why it's like that is because Latin "if... then" clauses are formed using the infinitive...

However, I'm just translating Vergil in Latin - and he doesn't use many "if... then" subjunctives. sweatdrop

Gambol

Shy Sex Symbol


SpazLink

PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 2:57 pm


Gambol
I think the reason why it's like that is because Latin "if... then" clauses are formed using the infinitive...

However, I'm just translating Vergil in Latin - and he doesn't use many "if... then" subjunctives. sweatdrop


That also doesn't make sense, since that would become "If I to have been...", which is just absurd.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 7:29 pm


SpazLink
Honestly, I don't think anyone here is getting it. Do you all know what a subjunctive even is?

{lengthy definition}

Am I to believe, then, that the present subjunctive cannot be used with "if"?

I'd say so.

Tolin Kalin

Dapper Waffles


Oh-mi-kaze
Crew

PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 7:32 pm


Actually, most Indo-European languages are (if they aren't dead) steering away from the subjunctive mood, if I'm not mistaken. This may be a result of a continuing trend to excess and indulgence, but that's a different discussion I mean, sure, it exists as the most irritating aspect of Spanish, second to the past preterite conjugations of irregular verbs, and I'm pretty sure the French still like to piss us off with that nonsense, but I think the subjunctive mood as a distinct aspect of grammar is going the way of the passenger pigeon.

This would lead to the mood being devalued to dependent clause status, probably. Example: instead of, "If ye be gods, then surely ye shall not be harmed," one would say, "If you are gods, then you won't be harmed." Although it is less beautiful, and lacking in the same force, the message becomes roughly the same: If (A), then (B), a hypothesis.

We'll take another, less subtle subjunctive form: "Would that I were a youth again," would be, "I wish I was younger." Again, although less forceful, the subjunctive tense is eliminated in the latter form and the gist remains roughly the same.

I don't claim to be an expert on what may be considered an antiquated aspect of English, so what I say may be dead wrong. It's just my opinion that the subjunctive mood is a tense that might as well be just a dependent clause with the hypothetical, and therefore need not be guarded with very much zeal.
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