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Big Bang, or Creation?

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Big bang, or big bust?
I believe in the big bang as the origin of life.
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
I believe in creation as the origin of life.
100%
 100%  [ 5 ]
Total Votes : 5


Corin_K.

PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 5:45 pm


TANSTAAFL, I would like you to explain what you have learned-what you believe is the prosses of the Big Bang, from the beginning to end, how we have arrived at what we are today. I have not so far met someone that has been able to make a clear presentation of it, and I would appriciate being able to understand fully what my opponents believe and trust.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 6:24 pm


The reason you haven't been able to get a satisfactory answer is because, most likely, for you, none exists.

The Big Bang is not really the name of an event so much as a label for a certain section of the universe. Basicaly, the Big Bang is whatever happened at t=0; the begining of time itself.

We have used satalites to peer back through time, recording light and radiation containing data originating from 10^-42 seconds (0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 seconds) into the universes life. This data has been used to reconstruct the history of the universe. However, after this point, we can't reconstruct anything more. We can't get back into that first fraction of a second. Our modern models just are not powerful enough for it.

We can't quite make it back to t=0 using our modern theory of general relativity, because it predicts a singularity, a breakdown of the mathematical system used, at that point. This problem has been (more or less) solved for black holes, but not for the big bang singularity, so the theory obviously needs some modification and isn't yet complete.

We can't make it back with the theory of quantum mechanics, because at the minute distances involved (distances shorter than the plancks length of 10^-35 m) gravity becomes strong enough that it needs quantifying. This would need a quantum theory of gravity, which does not yet exist.

Idealy, the two theories would be combined into one Theory of Everything (ToE), which would explain all these problems and more. However, this is, at best, decades off, and we need more observations to at least narrow the field down a bit more. Once we know where we need to be aiming we can start work a bit more diligantly.

There are candidates. Quantum loop gravity looked like a contender, and may still have a revival. String theory was strong, and M-theory was a favorite for a while, but has faded a little in the last few months with new discoveries not supporting it as strongly as predicted. Certain others have their advantages and disadvantages. One looks perfect, only no-one can actualy understand it, and the creator is dead.

The thing is, we can be certain, given the evidence, that there was a big bang event, 13.7 billion or so years ago.
http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni/uni_101age.html
The actual cause of the event is beyond modern understanding, and the only explanations at this time are physicists toy models that take far more knowledge than I have to fully understand, although I get the gist of quite a few. The simplest are Hawkings models of bubble universes, which need some higher universe for new ones to be spawned in, or the M-theory Brane models, which have similar requirements, as well as needing M-theory validated.

TANSTAAFL


Corin_K.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:22 am


eek Ok that was just over kill, all I want to know is from the time of the Big Bang how did the earth form and life appear? And its not that I've never recived a satisfactory answer, its just that I've never received an answer that is clear and covers the theory from one point to another without a break that leaves me confused.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 2:36 pm


Corin_K.
eek Ok that was just over kill, all I want to know is from the time of the Big Bang how did the earth form and life appear? And its not that I've never recived a satisfactory answer, its just that I've never received an answer that is clear and covers the theory from one point to another without a break that leaves me confused.
Actualy, that was kinda brief and missing chunks. Sorry, but this is not a simple area. One of the reasons why science always has the hard side of these debates. It takes time and effort to understand, while the other side tends to offer quick and semi-intuitive answers. Unless you take the time, you will never quite get the scientific side as easily as the religious side.

Anyway, there is no short and simple answer that completes the 13.7 billion years of history between the bang and today. However, I do have a moderately brief (for the length and detail that I tried to fit in) summary from post bang (once atoms had formed) to the conditions needed for abiogensis on earth. May have posted this before, but doubt it was read.
Quote:
have a look at what was left after the big bang. Due to the conditions shortly after the bang, we would expect there to be a lot of atoms drifting around, about 10^78 (that is a 1 with 78 zeros after it). About 23% are helium, with some deuterium and lithium, and the rest hydrogen. That isn't a very exciting universe, with only three elements on the periodic table, and one (or two) isotope(s) of hydrogen to play with. For one thing, there was no carbon, oxygen or iron, all of which are now very much a part of our world. But, we know that these number are right, as we can look back into the past using telescopes, and measure such abundances with ease (well, almost).

So, there had to be something between then and now in order for our observed world to fit with their observed world. And there was; stars. The first generation of them

Our sun is part of the second or third generations of stars. The actual terminology is backwards and confusing, so I will ignore it. The first generation were the first lot after the big bang, and the second are the ones that were formed from the debris of the first generation. The first lot tended to be huge, giant stars, unlike our sun or its nearest neighbours in both space and time.

A star is a giant ball of gas, which has been heated to amazing temperatures by the vast amounts of gravitational energy released by the collapse and the pressure of all that gas pressing inwards on it. The temperature inside a star is more than enough for atoms to get close enough together for the strong nuclear force to take over and fusion to take place. This allows atoms to join together to create new, larger atoms. The process follows certain paths through the periodic table, and so these are the atoms we see most commonly. Carbon is a rather simple little element, as are oxygen and sulphur. But eventually you reach iron. Iron is special. It is the most stable nucleus you can get. Fusing iron is not a good thing. While all other elements release energy on fusion, iron needs to take in energy. So, anything beyond iron is detrimental to the stars internal energy. Eventually, the energy released by the star fusing the last of its fuel will be too little to keep the enormous pressures at bay. The core of the star will collapse inwards, releasing vast amounts of energy once more. This, supernova explosion, fires off the outer layers of the star, and often destroys the core itself, leaving all these diverse elements that were created scattered across a region of space.

Fusion is a proven process, and has been shown in labs, and soon in power stations. The idea that stars use fusion is well evidenced and as close to proven as it can be. The supernova process has been observed, and calculations show exactly how all of this stuff happens. Such huge gas clouds are observed today. We call them nebulas, and think of them as the most beautiful sights in the night sky. They are star graveyards. And also potential future stars.

The final supernova explosion is enough to overcome the massive amounts of energy required to fuse the heaviest elements we see today. Any element not formed through such fusion is formed only later, as larger elements decay through normal, weak nuclear decay; the everyday alpha, beta and gamma radiation studied in science class.

These gas clouds are, over long periods of time, subject to the ever progressing attraction of gravity. The elements are slowly accumulated into larger and larger masses, eventually creating a core of sufficient mass to ignite a new fusion reactor, a new star.

But now, with heavier atoms in abundance, there is the possibility of smaller objects forming away from the main centre. Planets can be created from heavier elements and compounds, grabbing the heavier elements where light hydrogen would just escape back into space. These planets are formed from the same dust cloud as their host star, the debris from a dead giant star.

So, from this formation process, we can expect that the Earth first formed with very little atmosphere. As it was forming, elements like pure hydrogen could have easily escaped. We see heavier gases, like nitrogen, far more commonly today in nature than things like helium. But what about oxygen?

Oxygen is dangerously reactive. Many take this as an argument against life forming. Any complex molecule would have trouble in an oxygen rich environment. However, oxygen, by its very reactivity, would have likely locked itself up into compounds, like carbon dioxide or water. CO2 and H2O are vital components of most abiogenesis theories, along with other compounds like ammonia (NH3) which allows hydrogen to be brought into our atmosphere despite its lightness, and explains why there is so much nitrogen around today. So, rather than oxygen being a problem for early life, it was used by it, just locked into different forms than the O2 we rely upon today. Similarly, the compounds would have included other light gases, and that would explain how our small gravitational field was enough to trap the light molecules.

So, conditions for life could have arisen from the formation of our world along with the sun. From there, you are simply talking about odds. The odds are very good that the earth formed along similar lines to those I just described, and very very good that the conditions were similar to those expected in most abiogenesis theories. After all, these theories were made to work with the world back then, not just random thoughts.
Incidentaly, the reason I haven't answered the poll is that neither of those answers is right. The big bang has as much to do with the origin of life as the Karma Sutra has to do with Jesus.

TANSTAAFL


Columcille

PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:07 pm


Good stuff, There-aint-no-such-thing-as-a-free-lunch.

Karma Sutra.....mehehehehehehe



How does the Big Bang and intelligent design/creation conflict? I believe it was God's hand that made that bang. the KALAM cosmological argument almost addresses this indirectly. Every effect has a cause- the universe was created by the big bang, the big bang was created by God.

*shrug* It's not like it's a major deal here anyway, as we all agree that there is a loving deity called YHWH up there. It gets to be a problem (and nonsense) when one claims that the big bang had no cause; it just kind of happened. eek
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:13 pm


Columcille
How does the Big Bang and intelligent design/creation conflict? I believe it was God's hand that made that bang. the KALAM cosmological argument almost addresses this indirectly. Every effect has a cause- the universe was created by the big bang, the big bang was created by God.
Well, that isn't acceptable by science. If you accept that there was always a cause, you can't just say that God didn't have one. Drawing an arbitary line between the universe needing a cause but God not doesn't cut it at all.

Incidentaly, the idea of their being nothing before the big bang is senseless. It was an event of our universe (albeit the creation). The cause doesn't nesicarily obay the physics of our universe in cause, but must obay them in its results at least, which somewhat limits the range of things it could be.

Basicaly, anything in this universe is measured by the effects it has on the other things in this universe. An atoms existance can't be directly observed, but can be deduced through its interactions with other atoms, and eventualy with a detector, itself made up of atoms, which converts in the information into a form that a human conciousness can register. The human eye or ear is such a detector, as are our nerves and other sense organs. Artifical detectors expand these natural detectors range, allowing us to see more details or things that are normaly invisible or undetectable.

Now, if we can observe an effect, or any action in the universe, the odds are we can use our models of how things work (basicaly physics or chemistry, often generalised in large scale systems to something like biology, astronomy or other such sciences) to deduce details of the cause. We can find things from our theories that fit the bill. If there is nothing suitable to fill the role, then we can model at least what that cause had to be like.

The big bang is currently beyond our theories ability to model. However, this is expected to change, sooner rather than later. Once it does, we can at the very least work out exactly what the cause had to be like, and what properties it had to have. Because the effects are observable and go by our rules (even if they are rules we don't know at the moment), we can at least work out the properties of the cause that come into line with these rules.

There is a great analogy for physics and science I would like to share and expand.

Imagine if you were watching a series of games of chess. You have no knowledge of anything at all. Over time, you can build up a basic set of rules that govern how the pieces move. However, in each game, you may only see a subset of the moves each piece can make. If you see a whole game where a king is never castled, you may never realise that such a move can be made. However, once you have seen it happen a few times, you would probably work out what is going on.

Eventualy you would have a set that dictated every single rule in the game. It would come from patient observation and working things out from simply recording what you see and seeing what fits the rules.

But what we see is not analogious to this. Our observations are not of whole games, but of glimpses of the board ever few moves. These glimpses are not always after every move, and not always regular. We have to work a lot to fill in the details of what we see, and have to work harder to get ever more glimpses of what we see.

Even so, today we are at a stage where we not only know all the rules of chess, but can also work out what moves are more likely. We have learned at least part of how to play the game. We can work out which moves are likely to be made, and predict the path a game will take just by looking at the board.

Yet this is not all there is to chess. There are things you will never know just from looking at freezeframes, such as how the pieces move (you never see a hand moving a piece). You wouldn't know why, or how, the pieces get on the board in that particular formation. To work this out, you would have to find a way to observe the game in a different way, watching the humans play it. You would need a whole new set of theories and science to work out this new level.

The theories being worked upon today are analogous to a machine that will let us see not just freeze frames of the board, but an actual whole game being played out, and the people that are playing it. It probably won't explain everything straight off, and there are probably laws and levels still to be found after this (just as there are levels of complexity in the workings of humans), but it is the next big step on the way to total understanding.

TANSTAAFL


Sir_Catherine

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:49 am


no, I havn't read all the above posts yet-I've just had a long weekend and am in no mood/condition to read such debate

however...the poll leaves out one option-that God was the creator of the big bang.

I can't vote 'big ban' cause that makes it seem like I don't believe God created everything.
I can't vote 'creation' cause I don't believe in the strict biblical, seven day creation and I'm sure that's what was indicated by the poll creator.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:52 pm


Sir_Catherine
no, I havn't read all the above posts yet-I've just had a long weekend and am in no mood/condition to read such debate

however...the poll leaves out one option-that God was the creator of the big bang.

I can't vote 'big ban' cause that makes it seem like I don't believe God created everything.
I can't vote 'creation' cause I don't believe in the strict biblical, seven day creation and I'm sure that's what was indicated by the poll creator.
Well, the big bang option makes no sense either, as it wasn't the origin of life. That was abiogensis, and came 10 or so billion years later. It is the origin of the universe. Or, to take a new, rather nicely designed model by Hawkings, the origin of time in this universe. Before the bang, there were four spacial dimensions. After it, there were three spacial and one time dimensions. What before and after mean in this situation are advanced and hard concepts.

TANSTAAFL


Corin_K.

PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 9:59 pm


Sir_Catherine
no, I havn't read all the above posts yet-I've just had a long weekend and am in no mood/condition to read such debate

however...the poll leaves out one option-that God was the creator of the big bang.

I can't vote 'big ban' cause that makes it seem like I don't believe God created everything.
I can't vote 'creation' cause I don't believe in the strict biblical, seven day creation and I'm sure that's what was indicated by the poll creator.

Why do you think that God would say that it was THE first day, THE second day and so on and so on if it wasn't true?
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Creation Vs. Evolution

 
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