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 Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 1:24 pm
There pretty much the same aren't they? Well anyway, my sensei is tracing back roots of our Okinawan fighting system. So he's been teaching us some AIKIJUTSU not to be confuse with Aikido. Well I was wondering if anybody here takes any form of either.
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Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:44 pm
Yep. My style uses Aikijutusu principles.
There is a difference. Aikido is softer. Aikijujutsu throws are shorter, and tend to be downward, hoping to do damage with the fall, whereas Aikido throws are longer and more horizontal, hoping to prevent damage to the attacker.
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 5:01 am
Well, I have another observation on both of the arts, Aikido is mainly circular in entering, throwing as well as in evasion. Aikijitsu is triangular in entering, throwing and evading as well.
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:21 pm
Coycoy Well, I have another observation on both of the arts, Aikido is mainly circular in entering, throwing as well as in evasion. Aikijitsu is triangular in entering, throwing and evading as well. From what I can remember what my sensei said, Aikido is a softer versio of Aikijitsu, just like someone mentioned before. In much of a way it is the same conversion from Jijitsu to Judo, because the Japanese government asked for the art to be softened so it can be taught in the education system. Before that, it was used in wars. I can get more details tonight.
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 5:42 pm
Lunaries From what I can remember what my sensei said, Aikido is a softer versio of Aikijitsu, just like someone mentioned before. In much of a way it is the same conversion from Jijitsu to Judo, because the Japanese government asked for the art to be softened so it can be taught in the education system. Before that, it was used in wars. I can get more details tonight. Morihei Ueshiba (or O-Sensei) originally learned (Daito-ryuu?) Aiki-jujutsu; he refined them to a softer form later on, perhaps to reflect his own philosophy. I disagree with how it has been deliberately softened to be taught in the education system, because I doubt Ueshiba had that goal in mind. His personal students have then opened their own style of Aikido; some focus on the 'Ki', another on practical application, yet another on a sports-like approach and so on... One of the Bujinkan Budo Ninpo Taijutsu's schools were apparently the 'jutsu' that was the ancestor of Aiki-jujutsu, IIRC. Coycoy Well, I have another observation on both of the arts, Aikido is mainly circular in entering, throwing as well as in evasion. Aikijitsu is triangular in entering, throwing and evading as well. I'm not so sure about that. I've read in one of the Aikido books that Aikido has a 'square, triangle, circle' approach or something. I think it was 'triangular evasion, circular movement, square execution.' Have to check my books again though. sweatdrop
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Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:21 pm
Triste Morihei Ueshiba (or O-Sensei) originally learned (Daito-ryuu?) Aiki-jujutsu; he refined them to a softer form later on, perhaps to reflect his own philosophy. I disagree with how it has been deliberately softened to be taught in the education system, because I doubt Ueshiba had that goal in mind. His personal students have then opened their own style of Aikido; some focus on the 'Ki', another on practical application, yet another on a sports-like approach and so on... One of the Bujinkan Budo Ninpo Taijutsu's schools were apparently the 'jutsu' that was the ancestor of Aiki-jujutsu, IIRC. I train under Fujiyama sensei who trained under Sunamari Sensei who trained under Usehiba sensei. The reason for the split was political when Usehiba sensei decided to pass his dojo on to his son. The main purpose of softening the techniques was not education system but it was one of the contributing factors. When talking about different styles, each style does have a different focus of a sort. Partly too was when O-sensei was getting old, he changed the way he taught the style of Aikido, concentrating more on ki exercises than larger hip throws. So it also depended on which years his students trained with him before parting from the main dojo. And even within these styles, there is alot of diversity. Take for example, the style I train in, Manseikan. When sensei's from our sister dojo came over to train, I noticed a very big difference in how some of the techniques were executed, which is slightly different from our dojo, Isshinkan. Triste I'm not so sure about that. I've read in one of the Aikido books that Aikido has a 'square, triangle, circle' approach or something. I think it was 'triangular evasion, circular movement, square execution.' Have to check my books again though. sweatdrop Actually it is more circular than triangle. In fact, in last night's training, sensei was trying to smooth out my techniques because it was too triangular. EVerything is smooth, in waves, without corners. I think however, what you said is correct, though I cannot imagine what square execution is. But definitely, it is traingular in evasion because you want to create an slightly off center line with your opponent so that they cannot directly kick or punch you, but you have have access and is close in to them. That way, you are too close for them to attack effectively with any strike but that places you enough to do joint locks or throws. The evasion comes from tsubaki, which is basically swinging your hips to one side, letting one foot drag across, to evade strikes. Circular movements comes from moving with your opponent's strike, like the flow of water. I can elaborate more if people here want.
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Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 2:47 pm
Lunaries Triste Morihei Ueshiba (or O-Sensei) originally learned (Daito-ryuu?) Aiki-jujutsu; he refined them to a softer form later on, perhaps to reflect his own philosophy. I disagree with how it has been deliberately softened to be taught in the education system, because I doubt Ueshiba had that goal in mind. His personal students have then opened their own style of Aikido; some focus on the 'Ki', another on practical application, yet another on a sports-like approach and so on... One of the Bujinkan Budo Ninpo Taijutsu's schools were apparently the 'jutsu' that was the ancestor of Aiki-jujutsu, IIRC. I train under Fujiyama sensei who trained under Sunamari Sensei who trained under Usehiba sensei. The reason for the split was political when Usehiba sensei decided to pass his dojo on to his son. The main purpose of softening the techniques was not education system but it was one of the contributing factors. When talking about different styles, each style does have a different focus of a sort. Partly too was when O-sensei was getting old, he changed the way he taught the style of Aikido, concentrating more on ki exercises than larger hip throws. So it also depended on which years his students trained with him before parting from the main dojo. And even within these styles, there is alot of diversity. Take for example, the style I train in, Manseikan. When sensei's from our sister dojo came over to train, I noticed a very big difference in how some of the techniques were executed, which is slightly different from our dojo, Isshinkan. Triste I'm not so sure about that. I've read in one of the Aikido books that Aikido has a 'square, triangle, circle' approach or something. I think it was 'triangular evasion, circular movement, square execution.' Have to check my books again though. sweatdrop Actually it is more circular than triangle. In fact, in last night's training, sensei was trying to smooth out my techniques because it was too triangular. EVerything is smooth, in waves, without corners. I think however, what you said is correct, though I cannot imagine what square execution is. But definitely, it is traingular in evasion because you want to create an slightly off center line with your opponent so that they cannot directly kick or punch you, but you have have access and is close in to them. That way, you are too close for them to attack effectively with any strike but that places you enough to do joint locks or throws. The evasion comes from tsubaki, which is basically swinging your hips to one side, letting one foot drag across, to evade strikes. Circular movements comes from moving with your opponent's strike, like the flow of water. I can elaborate more if people here want. I love this woman. Seriously. Marry me. whee Circulare movements are the only movements that allow you to change direction without having a moment where you lose the tension that allows you to control your opponent. As for the reason for becoming softer, I, for one, wouldn't know. I know that in kendo, they say you must first beautify your kendo before you can make it fast and effective. If you start trying to make quick movements, you will never reach the understanding of the correct movements wich allow for the lightning-fast kendo we all want to practice. I therefor wonder if it's not just a form of mentality. Think about it. It's a lot harder to go from hard, sharp movement to soft ones than the other way around. You see a judoka at his first karate lesson, he'll be able to adapt. You see a karateka at his first judo lesson... Usually stiff as a board and incapable of making a decent throw. Maybe it's just a difference in the order in which you are taught?
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Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:59 am
Lunaries I can elaborate more if people here want. Please do 3nodding Thinking about it most of the evasion I've been taught has involved triangular movement and sudden changes of direction. The joys of a hard style hey? Its had quite a lot to do with weight distribution
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Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:08 pm
JoshuaKenzo crying I love this woman. Seriously. Marry me. whee Circulare movements are the only movements that allow you to change direction without having a moment where you lose the tension that allows you to control your opponent. As for the reason for becoming softer, I, for one, wouldn't know. I know that in kendo, they say you must first beautify your kendo before you can make it fast and effective. If you start trying to make quick movements, you will never reach the understanding of the correct movements wich allow for the lightning-fast kendo we all want to practice. I therefor wonder if it's not just a form of mentality. Think about it. It's a lot harder to go from hard, sharp movement to soft ones than the other way around. You see a judoka at his first karate lesson, he'll be able to adapt. You see a karateka at his first judo lesson... Usually stiff as a board and incapable of making a decent throw. Maybe it's just a difference in the order in which you are taught? *cough cough* *blush* Okie..moving on... I agree very much with what you said about hard going to soft being much harder than soft to hard. Actually my sensei explained that one to me a long time ago too. Our natural body reaction is to stiffen up, especially in fight or flight mode. Adrenaline pumps and soon your muscles tense, lifting your balance. When you use your muscles, which you do in most cases, you are tensing up and this create harder motions. That's the natural reaction. To remain soft and relax the whole time, especially during the fight, is very contrary to our body's natural instinct. That's why it's harder to go from hard to soft. DarklingGlory Please do 3nodding Thinking about it most of the evasion I've been taught has involved triangular movement and sudden changes of direction. The joys of a hard style hey? Its had quite a lot to do with weight distribution Hmm sudden changes of directions happens in certain instances too in softer techniques, especially in evasions when you are essentially pivoting your hips to avoid a strike, especially a punch. That's more however in evasion, and weight distribution is a big part as you don't want the person to throw you off balance, or yourself shifting to avoid the strike only to fall. In those instances, if a techique is used, you must rely on your hip strength. However, even there, if you look close enough, there are small circles made, as movements will be swifter and more natural. The circular movements come from techniques where you divert your opponent's strike. Not stopping it, mind you. Stopping it probably hurts you in the end, giving you an arm bruise or so. Instead, it is like diverting momentum to a different direction. Think of this in geometry and physics terms. If you do it in a sharp angle, you are actually at one moment in time, turning velocity to 0 in one direction, then increasing it to its previous amount in another direction (think vectors of force for this). However, in a circular motion, the velocity never quite reaches 0 in any direction but instead, is a little more evenly distributed. Many have noticed that Aikido is like a dance. That is true because of the fluidity of the movements. However, one must remember too that in most cases, what you see or what you practice is slowed down extremely and movements exaggerated so you can learn the movements correctly. Done fast, there seems to be no circles, but in truth, there is, just made much smaller, and so fast that you think there is none.
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Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:27 am
Lunaries Actually it is more circular than triangle. In fact, in last night's training, sensei was trying to smooth out my techniques because it was too triangular. EVerything is smooth, in waves, without corners. I think however, what you said is correct, though I cannot imagine what square execution is. But definitely, it is traingular in evasion because you want to create an slightly off center line with your opponent so that they cannot directly kick or punch you, but you have have access and is close in to them. That way, you are too close for them to attack effectively with any strike but that places you enough to do joint locks or throws. The evasion comes from tsubaki, which is basically swinging your hips to one side, letting one foot drag across, to evade strikes. I read that whole triangle-square-circle thing from one of the Aikido books I've got; I'll make a point of reading through it once more tomorrow to find it. xp But IIRC, it was Ueshiba's own philosophy. None too sure if it was early in Aikido's conception or not, though. ninja On a side note, Wing Chun's sensitivity is scary. sweatdrop
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