|
|
| Do you celebrate Ash Wednesday/Lent? |
| Yes |
|
42% |
[ 3 ] |
| No |
|
57% |
[ 4 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 7 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:42 am
 |
|
|
|
|
I received mine today this morning and I'm willing to keep my commitment this Season of Lent. For a total of 40 days from today, all Christians that follow the Ash Wednesday laws are suppose to sacrifice something that they love the most or something that holds them down from humbling themselves towards God. If not sacrificing, one must perform good deeds throughout Lent until Palm Sunday, entering into Easter Sunday. Did any members receive their ashes? If so, what are you planning to do for Lent? Myself, I chose to do a vegetarian fast. Eating no meat, fish, dairy, eggs, etc. The only thing I'll be eating will be plants, herbs, seeds, nuts, grains and kelp/seaweed. I also will be avoiding coffee which I love the most to indulge in. I am switching over to tea for this season.Pray that I keep my devotion and not slip.
|
|
|
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:29 pm
|
|
|
|
wahmbulance For your own safety, and the safety of others in the guild, I'm going to post this publicly. wahmbulance
Disregarding Jesus
There may be spontaneous 40-day fasts in the scriptures, but the “Lent” festivity itself is an example of what Jesus spoke against.
Matthew 6:16-18 (NIV)
16 “When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 17 But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18 so that it will not be obvious to others that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
These people are putting a visible sign on their face to let everyone know, “hey, I'm fasting!”. Jesus says, no, don't do that. Keep a clean, fresh face that won't let anyone know you're fasting. Ash Wednesday participants are receiving an ashen mark on their forehead, thus announcing to the world that they are fasting, contrary to Jesus' command.
Fasting should be done in secret, unless there's a corporate danger and you're telling everyone to fast in order to invoke God's protection on all the believers, in unity asking for one thing (for example, Esther telling all the Jews to fast along with her when Haman tricked the king into decreeing death to all Jews [Esther 4:16]; or Ezra asking the Israelites to fast because in order to return to Jerusalem, from their exile in Babylon, to build the temple, they need to trek back on foot; thus, needed protection from their enemies on the journey back [Ezra 8:21-23]). Otherwise, one's fasting should not be made known to anyone else (but God). It should be a secret.
In addition, with this post you wrote, you are letting everyone know that you're fasting, what you're doing to fast, what you're abstaining from, for how long, etc—as you're fasting. That's the total opposite of what Jesus commands. It would be understandable if it's something you did in the past, and are writing it down later to give testimony of how God answered the request in reply to said fasting, but we're not to give obvious signs when we do fast, let alone make public declarations.
Beware of Calling (or Making) Man-Made Traditions a "law"
The moment we make “fasting” a “law” by our own man-made church/synagogue authority, that is the moment we make the yoke heavy.
Matthew 23:1-4 (NIV)
23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
The Pharisees, who sat in Moses' seat, read the commands of God. But, although the Law of Moses was what they preached with their lips, that's not what they put into practice. Instead, what they do keep / put into practice are their own cumbersome loads (their own traditions in place of God's commands; these are the traditions Jesus spoke against in Matthew 15, that nullify the commands of the Father. As religious as the tradition sounds, even if God is the focus of their tradition, once one of the Father's instructions / definitions are nullified, the tradition is not acceptable).
The danger in calling these self-imposed traditions "law" is that people actually start treating them as divinely-inspired over the generations; and if the tradition is what they care about, then they stop doing what the Father actually said to do (or what the Son said to do), in favor of the man-made tradition (because in their minds, this is God-sanctioned. It's being done to honor God, so it must be okay / obedient to the commands, but in reality it is not]).
Side Note: whether we're talking a corporate fasting in response to a threat that presents itself against the whole believing community, or fasting individually (thus done in secret), it wasn't done cyclically every year for mere tradition and commemoration of an event, but because there was a need to combat a danger or to receive something they were asking for.
A Type of Fasting That God Does Not Like
He finds this kind of fasting unacceptable:
Isaiah 58:5 (NIV)
5 Is this the kind of fast I have chosen,
only a day for people to humble themselves?
Is it only for bowing one’s head like a reed
and for lying in sackcloth and ashes?
Is that what you call a fast,
a day acceptable to the Lord?
And why does He hate it? Because it has become ritualized, a cop-out affiliation with God, but they don't actually keep His law, neither the attitudes that reflect Him nor what the commands actually instruct them to do.
Isaiah 58:2-4 (NIV)
2 For day after day they seek me out;
they seem eager to know my ways,
as if they were a nation that does what is right
and has not forsaken the commands of its God.
They ask me for just decisions
and seem eager for God to come near them.
3 ‘Why have we fasted,’ they say,
‘and you have not seen it?
Why have we humbled ourselves,
and you have not noticed?’
“Yet on the day of your fasting, you do as you please
and exploit all your workers.
4 Your fasting ends in quarreling and strife,
and in striking each other with wicked fists.
You cannot fast as you do today
and expect your voice to be heard on high.
Yes, as the chapter goes on to say, go on and do good deeds as a type of acceptable fasting—rectify injustices, free people from oppressive governments and unjust verdicts / unjust prison sentences, and care for those in need...
Isaiah 58:6-10 (NIV)
6 “Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
to loose the chains of injustice
and untie the cords of the yoke,
to set the oppressed free
and break every yoke?
7 Is it not to share your food with the hungry
and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—
when you see the naked, to clothe them,
and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?
8 Then your light will break forth like the dawn,
and your healing will quickly appear;
then your righteousness[a] will go before you,
and the glory of the Lord will be your rear guard.
9 Then you will call, and the Lord will answer;
you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I.
“If you do away with the yoke of oppression,
with the pointing finger and malicious talk,
10 and if you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry
and satisfy the needs of the oppressed,
then your light will rise in the darkness,
and your night will become like the noonday.
Footnotes:
Isaiah 58:8 Or your righteous One
...but don't let people know that that's what you're going to be doing as you fast.
Matthew 6:2-4 (NIV)
2 “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
Everything about the fasting and good deeds happening during Lent is so public and non-secretive—contrary to what Jesus instructed. And the fasting is not being done to invoke protection from a danger / a threat to the believing community, the way Esther and Ezra did, so the fast should not be publicly declared.
All of that said, that's not all that's amiss about Lent. emotion_sweatdrop
Command Nullifcation
A little background: the early church had no need to adopt such traditions. God had already given us commands that would commemorate Jesus' death and resurrection (because Jesus did such things on those divine appointments that God had already instituted [passover and firstfruits]). Thus why Jesus is described as our “passover lamb” (with respect to His death) and the “firstfruits” (with respect to His resurrection):
1 Corinthians 5:7-8 (NIV)
7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
1 Corinthians 15:20 (NIV)
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
note from cristobela: The Festival of “Firstfruits” is described in Leviticus 23:9-14, and amongst Exodus 23:14-19; “Passover” details can be found in found in Exodus 12, Numbers 9:1-14 and Deuteronomy 16:1-8. The “Last Supper” happened on passover [which you can read in {Luke 22:7-20}. That the “Last Supper” is happening on passover / unleavened bread is revealed in verses 7-8; the breaking of unleavened bread and passing the cup of wine of the “Last Supper” occurs ten or so verses later in verses 17-20]
Like was mentioned in the other thread [Details in the New Testament that Get Ignored], which I linked to for your reading, the practices involved on God's divine appointments (passover and firstfruits) cannot be kept outside of Jerusalem because they involved sacrificing (an animal for passover, grains and wine for firstfruits). After the Israelites inherited the promised land, they were prohibited from making literal animal sacrifices (and grain offerings and drink offerings) anywhere they liked; they could only be made at the appointed place (tabernacle / temple) on the bronze altar.
With all that in mind, naturally, Christians not living in Jerusalem, but living far far away, would want to commemorate such things, even Jews after the temple was torn down in 70 a.d. (thus no bronze altar available for them either). But something disobedient happened to fill this void, at least on behalf of the Gentile believers: they took inspiration from the pagan spiritual practices and incorporated it into the tradition they would later dedicate to God.
The historian Alexander Hislop wrote the following:
The forty days' abstinence of Lent was directly borrowed from the worshippers of the Babylonian goddess. Such a Lent of forty days, "in the spring of the year," is still observed by the Yezidis or Pagan Devil-worshippers of Koordistan, who have inherited it from their early masters, the Babylonians. Such a Lent of forty days was held in spring by the Pagan Mexicans, for thus we read in Humboldt, where he gives account of Mexican observances: "Three days after the vernal equinox...began a solemn fast of forty days in honour of the sun." Such a Lent of forty days was observed in Egypt, as may be seen on consulting Wilkinson's Egyptians. This Egyptian Lent of forty days, we are informed by Landseer, in his Sabean Researches, was held expressly in commemoration of Adonis or Osiris, the great mediatorial god. At the same time, the rape of Proserpine seems to have been commemorated, and in a similar manner; for Julius Firmicus informs us that, for "forty nights" the "wailing for Proserpine" continued; and from Arnobius we learn that the fast which the Pagans observed, called "Castus" or the "sacred" fast, was, by the Christians in his time, believed to have been primarily in imitation of the long fast of Ceres, when for many days she determinedly refused to eat on account of her "excess of sorrow," (violentia moeroris) that is, on account of the loss of her daughter Proserpine, when carried away by Pluto [...]
Among the Pagans this Lent seems to have been an indispensable preliminary to the great annual festival in commemoration of the death and resurrection of Tammuz, which was celebrated by alternate weeping and rejoicing, and which, in many countries, was considerably later than the Christian festival, being observed in Palestine and Assyria in June, therefore called the "month of Tammuz"; in Egypt, about the middle of May, and in Britain, some time in April. To conciliate the Pagans to nominal Christianity, Rome, pursuing its usual policy, took measures to get the Christian and Pagan festivals amalgamated, and, by a complicated but skilful adjustment of the calendar, it was found no difficult matter, in general, to get Paganism and Christianity—now far sunk in idolatry—in this as in so many other things, to shake hands [...]
Let any one only read the atrocities that were commemorated during the "sacred fast" or Pagan Lent, as described by Arnobius and Clemens Alexandrinus, and surely he must blush for the Christianity of those who, with the full knowledge of all these abominations, "went down to Egypt for help" to stir up the languid devotion of the degenerate Church, and who could find no more excellent way to "revive" it, than by borrowing from so polluted a source; the absurdities and abominations connected with which the early Christian writers had held up to scorn. That Christians should ever think of introducing the Pagan abstinence of Lent was a sign of evil; it showed how low they had sunk, and it was also a cause of evil; it inevitably led to deeper degradation. Originally, even in Rome, Lent, with the preceding revelries of the Carnival, was entirely unknown; and even when fasting before the Christian Pasch was held to be necessary, it was by slow steps that, in this respect, it came to conform with the ritual of Paganism. What may have been the period of fasting in the Roman Church before sitting of the Nicene Council does not very clearly appear, but for a considerable period after that Council, we have distinct evidence that it did not exceed three weeks [...] (Hislop A. Two Babylons. pp. 169-172).
[source]
This is why Lent is preceded by “Mardi Gras” / “Fat Tuesday” (hedonistic, gluttonous, licentious behavior). Which is prohibited. It's what the pagans do:
1 Peter 4:3 (NIV)
3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry.
This “incorporating of religiously pagan practices into our lives” is a sin. Our Heavenly Father prohibited it:
Deuteronomy 12:30-31 (NIV)
30 and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, “How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same.” 31 You must not worship the Lord your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the Lord hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.
Jeremiah 10:2 (NIV)
2 This is what the Lord says:
“Do not learn the ways of the nations
or be terrified by signs in the heavens,
though the nations are terrified by them.
We should not even be giving off the appearance that we adopted their spiritual / moral ways.
1 Corinthians 8:9-10 (NIV)
9 Be careful, however, that the exercise of your rights does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if someone with a weak conscience sees you, with all your knowledge, eating in an idol’s temple, won’t that person be emboldened to eat what is sacrificed to idols?
Even if you know you're not worshiping the idol attached to the activity/tradition, what affect are you having on an onlooker? Don't link them to idolatrous paganism by what you do.
Even if God becomes the focus of the tradition, we are prohibited from adopting the ways of the nations. We're also commanded to not borrow spiritually-significant traditions of the pagans. And yet, that's exactly what happened concerning Lent.
In conclusion:
There is no saving “Lent”. It is disobedient.
Matthew 15:3 (NIV)
3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
Matthew 15:9 (NIV)
9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’[a]”
Footnotes:
s. Matthew 15:9 Isaiah 29:13
This is not the kind of practice we're at liberty to be convinced about in our own minds: it contradicts commands directly received from Jesus about HOW to fast, and the commands we received from the Father about what types of celebrations / practices we can / cannot adopt, not just because of what the practice has you doing, but because of their origins and where they come from, whom the practice gives honor to historically and culturally (other gods/idols/demons); thus ruining His holy reputation that He's unlike the other gods that the nations worship (be they spirits / demons / idols / imaginary). If it's not in accord with what the Father and the Son commands—then it cannot be dedicated to him, nor can His set-apart people partake of the tradition approvingly.
If anyone else does observe Lent, please don't. It does not please Jesus nor the Father. And I say this in Christian love, for your own sake. Only do what is pleasing in His sight (things that break His instructions are not pleasing to Him). |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:03 pm
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:16 pm
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:13 am
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:53 am
|
|
|
|
kattneko As a Catholic I feel that I must point out an error in your post Cristobela. The Ash is not to show that we are fasting. In ancient jewish tradititions they covered their faces with ash to mourn. Wednesday was the day of the week that Christ was betrayed. We mourn the betrayal. It does not symbolize that we are fasting, in fact most people who I know of who get the mark do not relate it to fasting. Lent is a time of mourning and preparation for us. As a Byzantine Catholic, we fast most Wednesdays and Fridays so we don't actually celebrate ash Wednesday, plus we have already been fasting fully for 10 days, since we count the days differently. For the Latin church though, it marks the beginning of Lent and so it is a somber occasion. You know how the one rule in Fight club is that you don't talk about it? Same thing with Lent. Do not boast about it. We still fast, just as the ancient church did. Christ fasted for 40 days in the desert. Should we follow in that example. Fasting is not a pagan practice. The jews fasted in the book of Esther. It was known and accepted. It tells us not to complain about fasting, not to look like it. But to still do so. "When you fast", not "Hey don't fast". Fasting is a good way to separate ourselves from what we desire to focus more on God. It's to turn us towards Him. NOT to boast of make ourselves feel better. What you are teaching is dangerous and heretical.
It's clear that you did not read my post carefully, nor in its entirety without skipping a word, because at no point did I teach against fasting itself. I even mentioned Esther and Ezra as an example of obedient fasting (corporate prayer asking for the same thing in times of emergency), and other examples of obedient fasting. How you concluded that I, at any point, am insinuating that Jesus taught "Hey don't fast", at all, is beyond me, because it's not present in my original reply. And I even mentioned that there are spontaneous 40-day fasts in the scriptures—which would include Jesus' 40-day fast.
Whatever the intended symbol / purpose you want to give the ash, it identifies participants in Ash Wednesday as fasting. I had a teacher in public school, and it became apparent that she was Catholic, because every year, on a certain date, she'd show up to class with an ashen cross on her forehead. I could tell when my teacher was fasting because of it. It was a dead giveaway that she was fasting (or doing good deeds), one or the other. That is contrary to Jesus' commands in the gospels. We should avoid making it apparent to people that we're fasting, not just by "not speaking about it" with our mouths (which by the way, you just did), but by our actions and how we dress.
It became a self-imposed tradition to put ashes on oneself to show that one is mourning or in fasting. So, when Jesus began his ministry, that is why he could teach against the tradition of showing visible signs that we're fasting (it's not a command of God to give visible signs). Why a clean face if not to emphasize don't put ash on it? nor make it dirty / leave it dirty? don't make it obvious that you're fasting by what you put on display on your face (whether ash or a dramatic facial expression, nothing is being uttered, but you're still conveying that which should be secret).
Fasting, in and of itself, is NOT what is being accused of being pagan here: the decision that, in spring time, every year, there will be a 40-day fast right after a period of licentious behavior called "Fat Tuesday", is. Read the whole thing to avoid misunderstanding. Do not mince sentences / omit words that I wrote in my sentence(s), or else you change what I conveyed. We cannot nullify actual commands of God for the sake of a tradition. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:10 pm
|
|
|
 |
cristobela kattneko As a Catholic I feel that I must point out an error in your post Cristobela. The Ash is not to show that we are fasting. In ancient jewish tradititions they covered their faces with ash to mourn. Wednesday was the day of the week that Christ was betrayed. We mourn the betrayal. It does not symbolize that we are fasting, in fact most people who I know of who get the mark do not relate it to fasting. Lent is a time of mourning and preparation for us. As a Byzantine Catholic, we fast most Wednesdays and Fridays so we don't actually celebrate ash Wednesday, plus we have already been fasting fully for 10 days, since we count the days differently. For the Latin church though, it marks the beginning of Lent and so it is a somber occasion. You know how the one rule in Fight club is that you don't talk about it? Same thing with Lent. Do not boast about it. We still fast, just as the ancient church did. Christ fasted for 40 days in the desert. Should we follow in that example. Fasting is not a pagan practice. The jews fasted in the book of Esther. It was known and accepted. It tells us not to complain about fasting, not to look like it. But to still do so. "When you fast", not "Hey don't fast". Fasting is a good way to separate ourselves from what we desire to focus more on God. It's to turn us towards Him. NOT to boast of make ourselves feel better. What you are teaching is dangerous and heretical.
Whatever the intended symbol / purpose you want to give the ash, it identifies participants in Ash Wednesday as fasting. I had a teacher in public school, and it became apparent that she was Catholic, because every year, on a certain date, she'd show up to class with an ashen cross on her forehead. I could tell when my teacher was fasting because of it. It was a dead giveaway that she was fasting (or doing good deeds), one or the other. That is contrary to Jesus' commands in the gospels. We should avoid making it apparent to people that we're fasting, not just by "not speaking about it" with our mouths (which by the way, you just did), but by our actions and how we dress.
It became a self-imposed tradition to put ashes on oneself to show that one is mourning or in fasting. So, when Jesus began his ministry, that is why he could teach against the tradition of showing visible signs that we're fasting (it's not a command of God to give visible signs). Why a clean face if not to emphasize don't put ash on it? nor make it dirty / leave it dirty? don't make it obvious that you're fasting by what you put on display on your face (whether ash or a dramatic facial expression, nothing is being uttered, but you're still conveying that which should be secret).
Fasting, in and of itself, is NOT what is being accused of being pagan here: the decision that, in spring time, every year, there will be a 40-day fast right after a period of licentious behavior called "Fat Tuesday", is. Read the whole thing to avoid misunderstanding. Do not mince sentences / omit words that I wrote in my sentence(s), or else you change what I conveyed. We cannot nullify actual commands of God for the sake of a tradition.
My apologies, I was already on edge when I read that due to an argument elsewhere. I jumped too soon. I will look over it and read it again tomorrow, when I am not so exhausted. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:25 am
|
Quotable Conversationalist
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Quotable Conversationalist
|
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:31 am
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:41 am
|
|
|
|
Glory to Jesus Christ.
Total Moon I received mine today this morning and I'm willing to keep my commitment this Season of Lent. For a total of 40 days from today, all Christians that follow the Ash Wednesday laws are suppose to sacrifice something that they love the most or something that holds them down from humbling themselves towards God. If not sacrificing, one must perform good deeds throughout Lent until Palm Sunday, entering into Easter Sunday. Did any members receive their ashes? If so, what are you planning to do for Lent? Myself, I chose to do a vegetarian fast. Eating no meat, fish, dairy, eggs, etc. The only thing I'll be eating will be plants, herbs, seeds, nuts, grains and kelp/seaweed. I also will be avoiding coffee which I love the most to indulge in. I am switching over to tea for this season.Pray that I keep my devotion and not slip.
My my my, such a strong reaction against a young lady following the example of Christ, of David, and of Moses.
Little Sister, Lent is a time of prayer and fasting as a method of renewing our focus on God. Like Christ, we spend our time in the Desert, calling upon God to aid in our struggle against sin. As we wander, we will be assaulted by the devil in all of his disguises. Do not be disheartened. Take courage, as you are a Daughter of the Most High.
The fast you describe is traditional in much of the Orthodox world. My wife and I are taking part in something very similar, though we eat shellfish. It's very difficult to stay healthy with none of the protein our body requires, so do be careful and be sure to drink plenty of water. If you aren't taking a multivitiman, this is a good time to do so.
However, Lent isn't simply about the things we give up. It is also a time for prayer, good works, worship and the giving of alms. All of these things glorify God and show our Love for each other. So pray, fast, confess your sins, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, and do not be afraid to worship, sing and pray no matter the time of year.
And if the devil attacks you, you know you're on the right track.
Glory to Jesus Christ!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Quotable Conversationalist
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:00 pm
|
|
|
|
brother_edward Glory to Jesus Christ. cristobela We cannot nullify actual commands of God for the sake of a tradition. Matthew, Chapter Four explains why Catholics fast for forty days and forty nights. I find it interesting that you accuse your sister of having made no effort to understand your post, when very clearly you've made no effort to understand the biblical roots of the Lenten observance. Perhaps there is a beam in your eye. As for the symbolism of ashes: http://www.gotquestions.org/sackcloth-and-ashes.html And I'm curious, as God Himself did not deposit your bible on your bedside table, how did you come to receive it?
I'm aware that Catholics take inspiration from biblical events for the meanings they've decided to ascribe to the ritual known as Lent, but that doesn't mean they're obeying the outright command Jesus gave for HOW to fast. Jesus did not make His 40-day fast known as He was doing His 40-day fast. Jesus does not contradict Himself. He's not going to say, "keep your personal fasting secret, don't let anyone know, neither by what you say nor how your face looks" and then go ahead and make it obvious, by putting ash on His face, that He was doing a 40-day fast. Or let people know, "hey you guys, I'm on day 10 of 40". What has been demonstrated by Lent and Ash Wednesday participants is not what Jesus commanded, but goes against what He commanded concerning fasting.
This is exactly like the Pharisees' handwashing tradition: the netilat yadayim, where they pour water over one hand, recite a blessing, pour water over the other hand and recite a blessing, so on and so forth, before they eat. They took inspiration from the commands in Exodus 30, where the priests would wash their hands in a basin prior to making sacrifices at the temple (but the handwashing / hand blessing tradition the Pharisees invented is not commanded by the Father; that was self-imposed tradition / symbol—and that tradition started overriding an actual command).
The Pharisees would consider your hands defiled if you didn't partake in their hand-blessing tradition. And even if God consecrated that plant or animal in His law/commands, the Pharisees would consider that you defiled the food in front of you because you hadn't blessed your hands first before touching it, so now it was all of a sudden unclean/defiled—though God's commands consecrate the plant or animal as clean. Their tradition was over-riding the commands of God, what is actually written.
They did the same thing with other actual commands of God: interpreting them in such a way so that you don't keep what the Father commanded, as it is written. Jesus rebuked that behavior:
Matthew 15:1-9 (NIV)
15 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”
3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’[a] and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ 5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ 6 they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 “‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’[c]”
Footnotes:
a. Matthew 15:4 Exodus 20:12; Deut. 5:16
b. Matthew 15:4 Exodus 21:17; Lev
Likewise, Jesus says, "do not make it obvious that you are fasting; wash your face, keep it clean, give no indication that you are fasting". But you say, "as long as we make Jesus the reason, it's okay to not do what He said; let's put ash on our face, because we have this self-imposed tradition / symbolic tradition. Who cares about the commands of our God". You're being just like the Pharisees who say, "as long as we make God the reason behind this, it's okay to disobey a command He actually gave; it's okay to nullify what is actually written; it's okay to fast in ways Jesus deliberately commanded against".
Just like certain Israelite tradition nullified what the Father says, Catholic tradition is nullifying what is written.
---
In my reply to kattneko, I already acknowledged the presence of ash in the bible when the Israelites fasted: it is a mere self-imposed tradition, not a command of God. That's why Jesus can speak against it, command not to put ash on one's face, or give visible signs that they are fasting, but to keep a clean face.
I provided examples that if you're letting someone know that you're fasting, then it's because the danger involved will affect them too, and in unison with them, you're asking for God's protection against the threat. Otherwise, the fasting is kept a secret, no visible signs that you're fasting.
I haven't ignored a single thing kattneko wrote. And I'm fully aware of the significance Catholics give the ash (and how the Israelites used it in the bible). Again, it's a tradition, a mere symbol people imposed upon themselves, it's not a command of God. If Jesus is giving us a command to not make it obvious, by what we put on our face that we're fasting, then it is disobedient of us to make up traditions later that involve putting ash on our face as we fast—contrary to Jesus' command, just because we make it symbolic of His 40-day fast in honor of Him. We're not honoring Him if we disobey what He said. He said not to make it obvious to others that we are fasting because of our dirty face. Keep it washed, fresh, clean. No sign on your face that you're fasting.
That the Catholics compiled the gospels and other letters of the New Testament canon does not mean they obey what is written on said scrolls. In the Catholic church, traditions have taken precedence over what is actually written in the gospels and epistles themselves. Just like the Pharisees: though they were in charge of reading the Law, and had the scrolls in their possession, they didn't obey it.
Matthew 23:1-3 (NIV)
23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
God's commands were read from Moses' seat. They didn't practice what they preached, and even gave interpretations that nullified what was commanded by the Father Himself.
Self-imposed traditions (and traditional interpretations) have taken precedence over what God commanded and over what Jesus taught. That is a problem.
brother_edward cristobela Total Moon Thank you fro showing me this. I've stopped my fast. I hope you don't mind that I shared this on my Facebook. How exactly are you going to prevent a young woman from an act of prayer and fasting, encourage her to do the same to others, clearly celebrate that she's ceased an act of prayer and fasting, and then chide someone for defending the fast?
Again, do not overgeneralize my very specific statements: I didn't speak against fasting and prayer, in and of itself, nor against 40-day fasts, in and of themselves. I'm speaking against disobedience to Jesus' instructions concerning HOW to fast. A tradition (be it Israelite tradition or Catholic tradition) cannot take precedence over the commands of God / the commands of Jesus. The tradition to put ash on one's face during fasting, goes contrary to Jesus' command to not to make it obvious that we are fasting by what we put on our face.
And adopting a religious ritual that already existed in heathen cultures, even if we make God the focus from that point on, is unacceptable. A 40-day fast after a period of licentious behavior, Fat Tuesday leading into Ash Wednesday, is what they adopted from the pagans, and then gave Christian signification. That is disobedient, and I posted the commands in my original reply that prohibit that: we cannot re-purpose what was religously pagan and dedicate it to the Most High just because it had a 40-day similarity that we could ascribe to Jesus. There is no such period of mourning—neither before passover / unleavened bread (which is when the Last Supper takes place and when Jesus was crucified and offered as our passover lamb) nor before firstfruits (the day He rose from the dead)—commanded anywhere, neither by the Father nor the Son. Nor is a period of mourning described elsewhere in Scripture in commemoration of Jesus' sacrifice as our passover lamb. And yet such a period of mourning, at springtime, after a period of licentious behavior, already existed in pagan cultures. So, who did we borrow that from? Not the bible, but the heathen cultures (what came to be known as Fat Tuesday and Ash Wednesday, already pre-existed in pagan cultures by other names).
That is the disobedience I'm chiding: the disobedience to Jesus' instruction concerning how to fast (keep it a secret, do not give indication, via what you do to your face, that you're fasting) and I'm chiding the act of adopting the religiously-significant practices of the heathen and giving them Christian signification, despite the commands of the Father prohibiting this syncretism (again read my original reply).
The commands of the Father and the commands of the Son is what I will defend, not symbol and tradition that mankind decides to impose upon themselves, even when it nullifies what the Father and Son outright commanded us. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:53 pm
|
|
|
|
cristobela brother_edward Glory to Jesus Christ. cristobela We cannot nullify actual commands of God for the sake of a tradition. Matthew, Chapter Four explains why Catholics fast for forty days and forty nights. I find it interesting that you accuse your sister of having made no effort to understand your post, when very clearly you've made no effort to understand the biblical roots of the Lenten observance. Perhaps there is a beam in your eye. As for the symbolism of ashes: http://www.gotquestions.org/sackcloth-and-ashes.html And I'm curious, as God Himself did not deposit your bible on your bedside table, how did you come to receive it?
This is exactly like the Pharisees' handwashing tradition: the netilat yadayim, where they pour water over one hand, recite a blessing, pour water over the other hand and recite a blessing, so on and so forth, before they eat. They took inspiration from the commands in Exodus 30, where the priests would wash their hands in a basin prior to making sacrifices at the temple (but the handwashing / hand blessing tradition the Pharisees invented is not commanded by the Father; that was self-imposed tradition / symbol—and that tradition started overriding an actual command).
The Pharisees would consider your hands defiled if you didn't partake in their hand-blessing tradition. And even if God consecrated that plant or animal in His law/commands, the Pharisees would consider that you defiled the food in front of you because you hadn't blessed your hands first before touching it, so now it was all of a sudden unclean/defiled—though God's commands consecrate the plant or animal as clean. Their tradition was over-riding the commands of God, what is actually written.
They did the same thing with other actual commands of God: interpreting them in such a way so that you don't keep what the Father commanded, as it is written. Jesus rebuked that behavior:
Matthew 15:1-9 (NIV)
15 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”
3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’[a] and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ 5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ 6 they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 “‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’[c]”
Footnotes:
a. Matthew 15:4 Exodus 20:12; Deut. 5:16
b. Matthew 15:4 Exodus 21:17; Lev
Likewise, Jesus says, "do not make it obvious that you are fasting; wash your face, keep it clean, give no indication that you are fasting". But you say, "as long as we make Jesus the reason, it's okay to not do what He said; let's put ash on our face, because we have this self-imposed tradition / symbolic tradition. Who cares about the commands of our God". You're being just like the Pharisees who say, "as long as we make God the reason behind this, it's okay to disobey a command He actually gave; it's okay to nullify what it is actually written; it's okay to fast in ways Jesus deliberately commanded against".
Just like certain Israelite tradition nullified what the Father says, Catholic tradition is nullifying what is written.
---
In my reply to kattneko, I already acknowledged the presence of ash in the bible when the Israelites fasted: it is a mere self-imposed tradition, not a command of God. That's why Jesus can speak against it, command not to put ash on one's face, or give visible signs that they are fasting, but to keep a clean face.
I provided examples that if you're letting someone know that you're fasting, then it's because the danger involved will affect them too, and in unison with them, you're asking for God's protection against the threat. Otherwise, the fasting is kept a secret, no visible signs that you're fasting.
I haven't ignored a single thing kattneko wrote. And I'm fully aware of the significance Catholics give the ash (and how the Israelites used it in the bible). Again, it's a tradition, a mere symbol people imposed upon themselves, it's not a command of God. If Jesus is giving us a command to not make it obvious, by what we put on our face that we're fasting, then it is disobedient of us to make up traditions later that involve putting ash on our face as we fast—contrary to Jesus' command, just because we make it symbolic of His 40-day fast in honor of Him. We're not honoring Him if we disobey what He said. He said not to make it obvious to others that we are fasting because of our dirty face. Keep it washed, fresh, clean. No sign on your face that you're fasting.
That the Catholics compiled the gospels and other letters of the New Testament canon does not mean they obey what is written on said scrolls. In the Catholic church, traditions have taken precedence over what is actually written in the gospels and epistles themselves. Just like the Pharisees: though they were in charge of reading the Law, and had the scrolls in their possession, they didn't obey it.
Matthew 23:1-3 (NIV)
23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
God's commands were read from Moses' seat. They didn't practice what they preached, and even gave interpretations that nullified what was commanded by the Father Himself.
Self-imposed traditions have take precedence over what God commanded and over what Jesus taught. That is a problem. brother_edward cristobela Total Moon Thank you fro showing me this. I've stopped my fast. I hope you don't mind that I shared this on my Facebook. How exactly are you going to prevent a young woman from an act of prayer and fasting, encourage her to do the same to others, clearly celebrate that she's ceased an act of prayer and fasting, and then chide someone for defending the fast?
And adopting a religious ritual that already existed in heathen cultures, even if we make God the focus from that point on, is unacceptable. A 40-day fast after a period of licentious behavior, Fat Tuesday leading into Ash Wednesday, is what they adopted from the pagans, and then gave Christian signification. That is disobedient, and I posted the commands in my original reply that prohibit that: we cannot re-purpose what was religously pagan and dedicate it to the Most High just because it had a 40-day similarity that we could ascribe to Jesus. There is no such period of mourning—neither before passover / unleavened bread (which is when the Last Supper takes place and when Jesus was crucified and offered as our passover lamb) nor before firstfruits (the day He rose from the dead)—commanded anywhere, neither by the Father nor the Son. Nor is a period of mourning described elsewhere in Scripture in commemoration of Jesus' sacrifice as our passover lamb. And yet such a period of mourning, at springtime, after a period of licentious behavior, already existed in pagan cultures. So, who did we borrow that from? Not the bible, but the heathen cultures (what came to be known as Fat Tuesday and Ash Wednesday, already pre-existed in pagan cultures by other names).
That is the disobedience I'm chiding: the disobedience to Jesus' instruction concerning how to fast (keep it a secret, do not give indication, via what you do to your face, that you're fasting) and I'm chiding the act of adopting the religiously-significant practices of the heathen and giving them Christian signification, despite the commands of the Father prohibiting this syncretism (again read my original reply).
The commands of the Father and the commands of the Son is what I will defend, not symbol and tradition that mankind decides to impose upon themselves, even when it nullifies what the Father and Son outright commanded us.
And so because you personally don't like the practice of 1.2 Billion Christians, you cause a young Christian to question fasting at all? Because you haven't bothered to understand a practice older than Christ Himself you take a single line out of context to justify your self-righteous, prideful behavior and cause this one and clearly many more to sin.
Or do you believe that the state of our world does not merit ALL of us to fast in sackcloth and ashes? No, the fruits of your intent are clear. You've stopped an act of worship, a call to prayer and repentance which might have built for the glory of the Kingdom, all because you personally don't like that people put ashes on their forehead in a mark of humility.
Shame. Shame upon your head. Shame upon the mother who bore you and the father who kept you. Shame upon the tongue which uttered such blasphemy, and the ears which accepted it. Shame. It would be better had you fastened a millstone about your neck than to take the words of our Savior and use them to keep this little one from His presence.
Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruits that befit repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father'; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham. Even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Quotable Conversationalist
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 5:27 pm
|
|
|
|
brother_edward And so because you personally don't like the practice of 1.2 Billion Christians, you cause a young Christian to question fasting at all? Because you haven't bothered to understand a practice older than Christ Himself you take a single line out of context to justify your self-righteous, prideful behavior and cause this one and clearly many more to sin. Or do you believe that the state of our world does not merit ALL of us to fast in sackcloth and ashes? No, the fruits of your intent are clear. You've stopped an act of worship, a call to prayer and repentance which might have built for the glory of the Kingdom, all because you personally don't like that people put ashes on their forehead in a mark of humility. Shame. Shame upon your head. Shame upon the mother who bore you and the father who kept you. Shame upon the tongue which uttered such blasphemy, and the ears which accepted it. Shame. It would be better had you fastened a millstone about your neck than to take the words of our Savior and use them to keep this little one from His presence. Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruits that befit repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father'; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham. Even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
This isn't about personal preference, but about obeying what Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, commanded. Again, I'm not talking against any and all fasting. I'm talking against fasting in such a way that Jesus commanded against. She can fast and pray obediently, and you wouldn't even know. For all you know, she is fasting and praying, but no longer disobediently. What the majority does is not indicative of "correct" and "righteous" in God's eyes:
Matthew 7:14 (NIV)
14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Matthew 7:21 (NIV)
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
None of what I said keeps a person from praying and fasting in an obedient way nor keeps a believer from coming into His presence. One doesn't have to observe the man-made regulations of Lent or Ash Wednesday to pray and fast obediently, in ways that do not nullify Jesus' instructions on the matter.
Your last paragraph consists of quotes that both Jesus and John the Baptist used against the Pharisees. The Pharisees did not bear the fruit of repentance because they feared man and man's traditions more than the commands of God (like I demonstrated with my previous replies). They did not accept Jesus' teachings (nor the Father's) because it contradicted their traditions and traditional interpretations. I disagree with the lawlessness demonstrated by the Pharisees. So Jesus' (and John's) accusations against the Pharisees don't apply to me.
Pride and arrogance, as defined by scripture:
Leviticus 26:18-20 (NIV)
18 “‘If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over. 19 I will break down your stubborn pride and make the sky above you like iron and the ground beneath you like bronze. 20 Your strength will be spent in vain, because your soil will not yield its crops, nor will the trees of your land yield their fruit.
Nehemiah 9:29 (NIV)
29 “You warned them in order to turn them back to your law, but they became arrogant and disobeyed your commands. They sinned against your ordinances, of which you said, ‘The person who obeys them will live by them.’ Stubbornly they turned their backs on you, became stiff-necked and refused to listen.
When we refuse to submit to God's commands, when we refuse to listen to Him, that is prideful, that is arrogant. I have not spoken against God's commands. Your allegations of pride on my part are baseless.
If you continue to define words in unbiblical ways, and continue to submit to regulations that nullify God's, you will interpret scripture in erroneous ways and allege that others, who do submit to biblical definitions, are taking passages out of context.
A helpful thread to read: [Details in the New Testament that Get Ignored].
If you want to continue cursing me and insulting me, feel free to do so in a PM, but I'll be locking the thread to prevent the rest of the guild from having to witness it. Judging by the riled up nature of your response, despite further clarification from me that you were misunderstanding what I wrote, I do not think an honest assessment of the practices is your motive behind participating in this conversation. Arguments have been presented for both. May the Holy Spirit convict people of what is most-biblically sound—and thus true to what both the Father and the Son spoke.
Peace be with you, in Jesus' name. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reply
