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 Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 3:14 pm
I ask this for several reasons:
My first thought is: the church cult thing. You know where MOMO is rescued. And what not- and the priest who seems to be leading U-TIC. Is that a sect of Christianity? Is it bearing a form of reference to it?
Another thing that seems to point to religion in the game, clearly, Revelation. But in XS:1, if you were listening, when Shion is in the Encephalon with Allen and chaos, and she's looking at herself as a child, guess what she is humming? A church hymn (I don't know which one, but it is definately a hymn).
If it is dead, there isn't much reason to wonder why, humans have moved on so much God probably didn't matter to them that much anymore. But is their any idea that this is all about Christianity to some degree?
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Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 4:20 pm
Christianity was revealed to be a religion not as heavily practiced in the present--it appears to portray a time where all religion is dead, much along the lines of an existentialist society (which, by the way, Nietzsche was an existentialist). Quote: Philosophical movement harking back to Kierkegaard and flowering most notably in the work of Sartre and Heidegger in the mid twentieth century. It maintains, roughly, that the thinking subjects existence precedes its essence, and that our subjective existence, as thinkers, consequently is radically free, cannot be objectively construed, and is consequently incapable of any objective scientific characterization. Society is basically at a point where life is simply there and deeper thought from that is not necessary: often existentialists do not believe in the concept of a God and although they are not quite anti-religion, they simply don't acknowledge such beliefs as necessary. Bearing that in mind, however, it's obvious that not all religion is gone. There are those select few, concepts revealed through the introduction of Yashua at the end of episode 2 or furthermore the majority of U-TIC and the immigrant fleet as essential ideological groups following beliefs somewhere along the lines of monotheism. It clearly includes Christian concepts but from a fairly objective view, atleast as much as conceptually possible. The most important of these being the allusion to Revelation and chaos (< spoiler) being referred to by Wilhelm as "Yashua" (the proper and original Hebrew name for Jesus Christ).
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Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 4:58 pm
Hellish Christianity was revealed to be a religion not as heavily practiced in the present--it appears to portray a time where all religion is dead, much along the lines of an existentialist society (which, by the way, Nietzsche was an existentialist). Quote: Philosophical movement harking back to Kierkegaard and flowering most notably in the work of Sartre and Heidegger in the mid twentieth century. It maintains, roughly, that the thinking subjects existence precedes its essence, and that our subjective existence, as thinkers, consequently is radically free, cannot be objectively construed, and is consequently incapable of any objective scientific characterization. Society is basically at a point where life is simply there and deeper thought from that is not necessary: often existentialists do not believe in the concept of a God and although they are not quite anti-religion, they simply don't acknowledge such beliefs as necessary. Bearing that in mind, however, it's obvious that not all religion is gone. There are those select few, concepts revealed through the introduction of Yashua at the end of episode 2 or furthermore the majority of U-TIC and the immigrant fleet as essential ideological groups following beliefs somewhere along the lines of monotheism. It clearly includes Christian concepts but from a fairly objective view, atleast as much as conceptually possible. The most important of these being the allusion to Revelation and chaos (< spoiler) being referred to by Wilhelm as "Yashua" (the proper and original Hebrew name for Jesus Christ). Are you making these deductions off of perfect works? Just wondering... Also, any reference to God made here, is it to the God of Abraham in Exodus, or that of a different God? You're making it sound like a yes and no at the same time...
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Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 5:09 pm
My statements about existentialism are: the statements I made were drawn from Nietzsche's "Beyond Good and Evil" and "Thus Spake Zarathustra" as well as articles written regarding Freidrich Nietzsche based on the philosophical concepts illustrated in his articles and books.
In reference to the son of God? Yashua would be the son of the God of Abraham, the Jesus in Christianity. I'm not sure where I sounded as though for and against it. Point out what I stated that created the confusion and I'll clarify.
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Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 5:15 pm
Hellish My statements about existentialism are: the statements I made were drawn from Nietzsche's "Beyond Good and Evil" and "Thus Spake Zarathustra" as well as articles written regarding Freidrich Nietzsche based on the philosophical concepts illustrated in his articles and books. In reference to the son of God? Yashua would be the son of the God of Abraham, the Jesus in Christianity. I'm not sure where I sounded as though for and against it. Point out what I stated that created the confusion and I'll clarify. Ok, You're telling me Nietzsche was an existentialist (sp?) but at the same time you also mentioned Revelation and what not. Just the confliction here is: every other freaking point of this game is an arrow screaming to religion, yet it was built of this stern athiestic man... I don't get it.
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Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:10 pm
Quote: Just the confliction here is: every other freaking point of this game is an arrow screaming to religion, yet it was built of this stern athiestic man... I don't get it. Well, those points I made were meant to be taken separately. Nietzsche did influence a lot of the concepts in the game, but not the religious-side. He influenced the side of perspectivism moreso than anything else thus-far. It's hard to say how they would clinch the matter, but as of right now don't confuse the atheist who influenced some with a religious theme. You can still have a theme of atheism working alongside a theme of religion--as a matter of fact, it would be most interesting that way. It isn't contradicting, just very intricate.
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Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:27 pm
In the Xeno games Christanity is religon placed along in ancient history of the planet Earth which mankind had abandoned thousands of years prior to Episode I. There are new religous cults that take place in some societies but not in the general societies. When the series reaches Episode 5 society becomes more religous based as is because they aren't aware of other civilizations elsewhere and they revert to standard Earthian socities, but with differnt ideals based on differnt events.
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Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 6:29 am
Not sure if this supports any hypotheses here, but don't forget that in Episode I Mizrahi quotes the Bible.
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Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 7:28 am
HELLO! We're not discussing Nietsche It's XENOSAGA... so what if the game has part of Nietsche works, it doesnt mean it is all about Nietsche works.
In Xenosaga Episode I, Mizrahi did quote the bible indeed, that's a bell ringer right there, to some point I bet a good deal of the Xenosaga Characters did study the bible... *cough*chaos*cough* And Shion too, because she was humming a church hymn, and also in KOS-MOS encephalon there was Nephilim (Nephilim means sons of angels *side note: Don't remember the exact definition but this is as close as I can get* ) Nephilim was seen within... ahh gasp! A church, believe it or not this church had to come from somewhere, and seeing as how KOS-MOS has taken liberty to reconstruct Shion's memories, that church must have come from her memories. However Allen made the question, "We're inside the chief?!" So it is in Shion's memories.
Even Wilhelm makes religious remarks at some point, Margulis, Albedo makes the biggest bible quote in Xenosaga I, 'Except a corn of wheat and ....' oh god I can't remember the whole quote, but he was quoting Rubedo who obviously studied the bible himself. What Albedo was saying was 'Give up the will to power and you shall be with god' I asked my Bible study teacher about it...so you can't say thats wrong.
So pretty much people in the world of Xenosaga know about the bible and religions that did exist, (or still do) and do study it. The game itself, practically does scream... RELIGION of all sources. Jewish, Christianity, Buddhism, you name it. And I do believe Zarathustra is a religion, ill look into it more.
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Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 8:33 am
We had already stated that it was not the only factor of the game--as I said, Nietzsche is just a basic framework for developmental themes that were involved in the game.
However, to your statement that many of the characters are familiar with religion, I'm going to have to interrupt with a statement against that. First, the existence of religion and church were a part of Shion's subconcious. In addition to themes of philosophy, one of the most important aspects of the game is a psychological undertone involving considerable dealing with the subconcious--as the encephalon dive is a dive into the said-subconcious, it would be a comfortable assumption that that framework of religion does not necessarily reflect on her daily life. Humming a church hymn is more of a reflection on her early life not so much the present.
Then there's chaos. To say "many of the characters are religious" in response to my statement that said the mass of people aren't wouldn't be accurate. Characters like Margulis, the Patriarch, chaos, Albedo--these are all gross exceptions from the general public. As we know Margulis is involved in (like I already said) a fundamental religious society. chaos was referred to as "Yeshua" by Wilhelm (who also is yet another exception as revealed in the second game).
Therefore, I'll hold my conviction that the mass of the public are not grossly familiar with religion. As they said--the U-TIC structure was once the church of a long-extinct religious cult. And judging from the way the mass of people act and the very VERY minimal religious references made aside from these very few exceptional characters, I'd say that that's the case fairly concretely.
Nonetheless, it is clear that the game itself is still loaded with religion. That I won't debate--any half wit who's played the game could have figured it out. But religious themes do not necessarily reflect en masse the population (as defined, EVERYONE. . . not the few).
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Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 12:12 pm
Your still so debative... and you have no reason to refer to people as 'half wits' Name calling doesnt get yourself anywhere =) And it's not nice.
But either way, chaos most definatly is religiously affiliated because he also quoted the bibe in Xenosaga II when he said the words about the horsemen.
Now... it's just a game, so get off the offensive side =(
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Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 6:15 pm
Sorry, I wasn't calling anyone a half-wit. =\ I'm saying it doesn't take much to know it's religious to make the point that I was not saying it lacked it. Again, if you read my post above, though, I did not say chaos wasn't religious. I said he doesn't represent a majority of the population. He's obviously religious. As I said, Wilhelm called him "Yeshua." Yeshua is the hebrew-proper name for Jesus so it's not so much that he's religious as much as it is that he is God in flesh. ;]
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Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 6:38 pm
I never said chaos represented the entirety of the populus of Xenosaga. However when you have the majority of the characters that know the bible then you can pretty much infer that the other characters can interpret what the characters without a religious back ground would say.
However none of this could be proven seeing as how any of these characters don't exist in the real world and never will.
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Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 6:54 pm
No, a majority of characters is not Albedo, Wilhelm, and chaos, with the select few others do not all that interpretation of everyone else. That's called a correlational error. All three of those characters are drastically difference from every Joe that would work a job and do anything else anywhere else in society. If anything, from what people say and what little to nothing that is said by the people you speak to around the locations regarding religion would suggest otherwise, although it is just speculation. The few people that are religious or atleast have knowledge based in religion (one by the way was a U.R.T.V. infected by U-DO, the other is the CEO of Vector and leading the manipulating group of cloaked men that are playing all of the cards throughout the events of both games, and the last is referred to as God himself) are complete outliers and are blatantly different from any other individual in the game. Even Shion, aside from the humming and minimal allusive detail in her subconcious, shows very little in terms of religion.
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:31 am
Oh boy.
Taking these as they come:
Shion's Hymn:
If I remember correctly, which may not be the case, Shion is humming "Greensleeves". It's actually an older melody, to which the hymn "What Child Is This" is set. In the Episode I OST, there's an orchestral arrangement by Yasunori Mitsuda of this same piece, called--surprise, surprise--Greensleeves.
This brings up an interesting subtheme of Xenosaga that someone with more time and patience than I might want to investigate--religious assimilation. A lot of hymns are based on much older melodies that were picked up from pagan cultures that the Catholic/other churches at the time assimilated. By acquiring bits and pieces of the local secular & pagan culture, the Church then made itself more "familiar" to the population and thereby could integrate them into the fold. (The Law of Love and the Law of Violence by Leo Tolstoy investigates this in the context of examining what "true" Christianity is--that is, in his words, the complete abandonment of violence.) There is definitely a thread of this in the way Vector and the Kukai Foundation--both SECULAR organizations--have assimilated bits and pieces of Christianity ("Ye shall be as gods"--Genesis, the names of the Zohars, the tale of the Marienkind) to add to their secular efforts.
Practicing Religion in Xenosaga:
I have half a mind to wonder if the "long-dead cult" mentioned as the builders of Pleroma were not, in fact, the Ormus cult--which is not, as we can see from the Patriarch's reappearance--dead. Margulis also appears to be a part of the Ormus religion, and does make heavy mention of God in his speeches. Albedo--whose rhetoric on man's will sounds a lot like Margulis's, only with a far more vicious edge--is also a part of U-TIC, and may have been since the Miltian Conflict. Which would therefore imply that he was RAISED by U-TIC, and therefore is a part of their state religion.
Perfect Works does mention that Christianity and Buddhism are both alive and well in the timeline of Xenosaga. Certainly Jin appears to be a practicing Buddhist, from the way he chastizes Shion about not returning home to visit their parents' graves--and her reply to it. Shion herself appears to be agnostic; I wouldn't say she's an atheist, but she certainly does have a healthy disdain for her brother and his kooky old-time religion.
Albedo and Religion:
Albedo is an unusual person for y'all to bring up as being "religious", because he's easily one of the most Nietzschean figures in the game. Right on down to the misogyny--apparently, Nietzsche himself was not a fan of women. But that's aside from the point.
Albedo does preach the doctrine of mankind's transcendant will--and much like Dostoevsky's Raskolnikov, seems to believe his status as a being of superior will gives him the right to do whatever he damn well pleases with the rest of the world. He is NOT a nice person, and definitely not what I'd call Christian in the traditional sense--he's arbitrarily cruel, murderous, and tempramental, which is about 180 degrees from the traditional view of what a "religious" person should be. Even some of the worst of religious zealots still seem to have virtues that Albedo lacks.
HowEVER, this does not discount his possible belief in God, or a god. I do not believe, though, based on his rhetoric that he believes in the Christian God--a benevolent creator-figure, and in many cases a parent--if anything, Albedo's god is an Old Testament god, swift to punish mankind for their errors. I don't think he even has an anthropomorphized god--his god didn't make man in His own image, but instead is the Will behind the cruel aspects of the universe. So while Albedo is a theist, he's certainly not Christian.
And simply because he can quote the Bible and has studied it does not mean that he's religious! I know several atheists and agnostics who've read and studied the Bible--some who are even more familiar with it than I, and I'm a practicing Christian.
--CVirus
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