Note: The thoughts I implied here are solely my own. If anyone who happens to pass by this thread and has been guilty of doing the things I find annoying, don't take it personal. I hate the act not the person, there's a difference. If ever a dispute happened here I would leave it here and let it not cloud my judgment on future conversations. Below contains inappropriate words that would describe how I feel about the things that revolve around gold and alchemy. They can be a bit disorganized. You've been warned.
@$#^%@%^#^^&@*!@$# inflation promoters and your %#$%^@*#&(!$#%!#$% overpricing schemes. I've been crafting and selling components throughout my days in alchemy at lower than mp price because I promote deflation while profiting if I can and if I ever overcharged anyone they'd know within 48 hours I'll pm them or send a trade with the excess gold I got from them out of conscience.
I tried so hard, so @$%#@&% hard controlling the impulse to gain something in excess because if virtue. To remove the image that alchemy get's you broke because its an expensive hobby but #%$^$^&*&%*%^*(&^ it all.
Makes me think of the times I've wasted or didn't with regards to asking myself should I just give up or not? I mean, the goal was to promote deflation and giving people the idea that alchemy is for everyone. It's bad enough that inflation exists on items that have a tendency to go extinct but items that keep on generating like tickets, fish and all %$@^@$%&%#*%%^* of gaia gaming creation and that includes philosopher caches and their contents oooh yeah don't get me started on those over priced caches, I wouldn't even mind buying an aquamarine for 50k each since that's their value on bi-frost and less on people imposed value. $#%!#$^%^@&%^*& it all.
Right, it's everyone's free will to choose what they do on mp but @#$^%@^###*&$*^ everyone or anyone who complains about inflation and promotes it at the same time. I mean, come on? alchemist cases for 25m and up each? when I came back from hiatus gaia lived for 600k each of them and alchemy was still fine and dandy, I'm just waiting for them to go 40M and up and laugh like %@^$%^^*^&*#
Swimming against the tide of greed. I don't know what's worse, giving up or accepting things as is without doing anything about it. @%@^%&#&**(&*!# numbers, gold caches aren't worth more than 1.25M more. What good is the cache probabilities, and numbers that prove the whole point on good pricing?
Telling people component formulas aren't worth that these days is like explaining poetry to fish. @%@%^&#^!@#!@#$!$%*(^&* There are smart alchemists alright but there are stupid alchemists who sink the whole community down.
$##$%$%&$*($!@$# maybe overpricing fishes was karma for the community since the community itself is eating its own members out. Who else would buy a component from mp? of course only someone who's interested in alchemy would. glad I got that out of my chest.
end.
Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 9:11 am
I'm not saying that inflation is good or even "not bad," but you have to realize that it's not completely the users' fault.
The core of this inflation is from how much gold is being pumped into the system by the gold generators like Dragon's Trove and Make It Rain/Hurricane. Having more gold in the system means each individual piece is worth less. Think of the collective value of everything in existence as a giant cake. Everyone wants more slices of cake, but Chef Gaia is just cutting that cake smaller and smaller so that there are more slices (i.e. creating more gold). Yeah, everyone gets "more cake," but each piece is a crumb. So now, if you want a whole bite (i.e. an item), you need to gather more crumbs than before. I hope this make sense.
This isn't to say that users play no part in causing inflation. There are people who artificially inflate items by controlling the entire market. Once they own a majority of the supply, they have a monopoly and can charge whatever they want. However, I don't think this is the case in fishing or Alchemy. It's not artificial inflation for most scenarios simply because anyone who cares to put in the time or effort can get Boldurs or Gold Caches. I think they got more expensive because 1) people got a lot of gold from the surplus in the system and 2) are too lazy to put in the effort. These two factors combine mean that they can buy out the cheaper listings. This also means that more people will be tempted to try out Alchemy since they have so much gold, so simple supply and demand also drives up the price.
I am also not saying that Cash and the CS are bad and are ruining inflation. The continuous creation of gold generators is bad. The other RIGs that also give out items are NOT bad at all. Those RIGs are one of the few ways Gaia can increase the supply of items without making it overly unfair to others who have earned/bought it already. Ideally, they put luxury items like the Angelic Halo or Devil Tail for sale in La Victoire with no count or time limit. This increases the supply so much that those items will most likely not be ridiculously priced. However, they will probably also lose their luxury status, which will anger a lot of users who were either here in '03 or have earned their Halos/Tails. Having the luxury items on a limited release is also unfair because people with the fastest internet connections or are online at the right time will be able to buy everything before others get a chance. Luxury items in RIGs make it so that everyone gets a fair chance at winning since statistics is equal for all. Now yes, this does mean that people with credit cards and large disposable incomes will get more chances. However, the rest of the users still benefit because there are more luxury items and prices will drop. For example, Sly the Black Fox used to be valued at 2 billion gold. It's now 85 million! Even if you can't play the RIG, you can still buy it for cheaper than what it used to be.
I guess my point is that, yes inflation sucks. However, there are so many factors that influence it that it's not just greed. People who complain about it while listing items at ABP or slightly above most likely aren't trying to inflate the item; they're just going with what that item is currently worth given how much gold is in the system.
And the Gold Cache thing...I'm gonna go calculate the "break even" value of them because their value is most definitely NOT 50k. Will make another post later.
EDIT: Got a small headache trying to solve an equation with 10 variables, so I made some assumptions and went with guess-and-check. I assumed that everyone will be selling their Aquamarine and Emerald caches back to the Bifrost for 10k and 5k respectively because that is usually more than what you'd get on the MP. I also assumed that the MP is in a good state regarding the price of everything except the Gold, Garnet, and Ruby caches. The Platinum caches doubled in price from what I remembered, but I've been getting about 1% drop rate from base caches as opposed to the 3% last year, so I'm gonna assume that that's what their value is now. I'm not sure why the Ruby caches are now 93k each since they're not that much rarer than last year, so I priced them at 55k which was their value in late 2013. Same with the Garnet caches, so I priced them at 45k
If you hypothetically sold the caches at these prices, you'll break even. More or less. There will be a 1k profit, but that's negligible in the grand scheme of things.
So I stand corrected on the Gold Cache inflation. The price hike is mostly driven by greed. I even significantly marked down the prices of other caches like the Ruby and Garnet so that the Gold cache would need to be sold for more just to break even. At the actual ABP of those caches, the Gold cache should be sold for even less. Though I suppose nobody really wants to break even in this market.
I'm not saying that inflation is good or even "not bad," but you have to realize that it's not completely the users' fault.
The core of this inflation is from how much gold is being pumped into the system by the gold generators like Dragon's Trove and Make It Rain/Hurricane. Having more gold in the system means each individual piece is worth less. Think of the collective value of everything in existence as a giant cake. Everyone wants more slices of cake, but Chef Gaia is just cutting that cake smaller and smaller so that there are more slices (i.e. creating more gold). Yeah, everyone gets "more cake," but each piece is a crumb. So now, if you want a whole bite (i.e. an item), you need to gather more crumbs than before. I hope this make sense.
This isn't to say that users play no part in causing inflation. There are people who artificially inflate items by controlling the entire market. Once they own a majority of the supply, they have a monopoly and can charge whatever they want. However, I don't think this is the case in fishing or Alchemy. It's not artificial inflation for most scenarios simply because anyone who cares to put in the time or effort can get Boldurs or Gold Caches. I think they got more expensive because 1) people got a lot of gold from the surplus in the system and 2) are too lazy to put in the effort. These two factors combine mean that they can buy out the cheaper listings. This also means that more people will be tempted to try out Alchemy since they have so much gold, so simple supply and demand also drives up the price.
I am also not saying that Cash and the CS are bad and are ruining inflation. The continuous creation of gold generators is bad. The other RIGs that also give out items are NOT bad at all. Those RIGs are one of the few ways Gaia can increase the supply of items without making it overly unfair to others who have earned/bought it already. Ideally, they put luxury items like the Angelic Halo or Devil Tail for sale in La Victoire with no count or time limit. This increases the supply so much that those items will most likely not be ridiculously priced. However, they will probably also lose their luxury status, which will anger a lot of users who were either here in '03 or have earned their Halos/Tails. Having the luxury items on a limited release is also unfair because people with the fastest internet connections or are online at the right time will be able to buy everything before others get a chance. Luxury items in RIGs make it so that everyone gets a fair chance at winning since statistics is equal for all. Now yes, this does mean that people with credit cards and large disposable incomes will get more chances. However, the rest of the users still benefit because there are more luxury items and prices will drop. For example, Sly the Black Fox used to be valued at 2 billion gold. It's now 85 million! Even if you can't play the RIG, you can still buy it for cheaper than what it used to be.
I guess my point is that, yes inflation sucks. However, there are so many factors that influence it that it's not just greed. People who complain about it while listing items at ABP or slightly above most likely aren't trying to inflate the item; they're just going with what that item is currently worth given how much gold is in the system.
And the Gold Cache thing...I'm gonna go calculate the "break even" value of them because their value is most definitely NOT 50k. Will make another post later.
Thank you for the insight, I read it all, found nothing I could disagree on and appreciated another side of inflation more.
I wanted to promote alchemy as something that people could actually take the time for interest and not put a hands up in resignation at the prices the components costs especially the ones that generate endlessly unless an update says it no longer would.
A severed soul taken from a gold cache has an average mp price of 5m from the time this was posted. wtf? I get a lot of people still don't get what cache has the component but ain't that a bit too much? both seller and buyer are at fault for reasons not deep enough to dwell on.
I used to think ectoplasm couldn't get any higher but whoa, 10m average and up now? back when I started alchemy, it used to be 3.3M- 3.5M
With regards to gold caches, I have an idea of their value range but not a fixed value. Only diamond and gold have justified value of more than 50k. Emerald could be worth less than 50k but these are just my standards.
Off-topic: I'm thinking of saving 1000 gold caches and try selling them for 2B and see who would be the most loaded alchemist to take on the deal for fun>profit. Profit would always be there but the fun of seeing reactions for such proposals ._. priceless.
edit: In case someone thinks my off topic insertion is a proof that I'm a hypocrite at trying to not promote inflation, you're very wrong. 1k gold caches would earn me an estimate amount of 5B to 9B if allocated on the right formulas. I'm losing more profit than I should on the deal. ._.
Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 10:12 am
Yami no Sakura
EDIT: Got a small headache trying to solve an equation with 10 variables, so I made some assumptions and went with guess-and-check. I assumed that everyone will be selling their Aquamarine and Emerald caches back to the Bifrost for 10k and 5k respectively because that is usually more than what you'd get on the MP. I also assumed that the MP is in a good state regarding the price of everything except the Gold, Garnet, and Ruby caches. The Platinum caches doubled in price from what I remembered, but I've been getting about 1% drop rate from base caches as opposed to the 3% last year, so I'm gonna assume that that's what their value is now. I'm not sure why the Ruby caches are now 93k each since they're not that much rarer than last year, so I priced them at 55k which was their value in late 2013. Same with the Garnet caches, so I priced them at 45k
If you hypothetically sold the caches at these prices, you'll break even. More or less. There will be a 1k profit, but that's negligible in the grand scheme of things.
So I stand corrected on the Gold Cache inflation. The price hike is mostly driven by greed. I even significantly marked down the prices of other caches like the Ruby and Garnet so that the Gold cache would need to be sold for more just to break even. At the actual ABP of those caches, the Gold cache should be sold for even less. Though I suppose nobody really wants to break even in this market.
When I started alchemy, the price of a gold cache is exactly along that range. January 2014 if I recall correctly. You're estimate on a platinum (55k), aqua and emerald is exactly the same as mine.
I did some math work on platinum caches and found them the most useless cache in terms of utility on grand scheme. Perhaps on RandD subforum, I'll write something about platinums being overrated.
You're welcome, and thank you for reading my long reply. I'm glad it wasn't too confusing.
I think it is a noble effort to promote Alchemy. In truth, the hardest part about Alchemy is just the effort. There are people who only want in for the profit, and they are the ones most likely to quit from the price. A lot of Alchemy is research, which I guess comes as a shock to most people. I can't check right now 'cause Gaia keeps telling me their servers are acting up, but I agree that 10 mil per Ectoplasm probably overpriced. The fact that they're consistently listed at that price means that people are buying them, so in essence, laziness is driving up the price. I mean, I used to sell bundles of Smooth Whetstones for 15k per stone. It's higher than the 8k per Sapphire cache, but people are perfectly willing to pay me an extra 7k each just to save themselves 3 clicks per stone. I guess this is the same principle behind selling ready-made wing components like Ectoplasms.
Saving up 1000 Gold caches will take a long time, but good luck! I vaguely recall someone trying to get 1.8k Gold caches to stock up for wings. I don't know how they went about opening all those base caches 'cause i haven't heard from him since. Anyway...Out of convenience's sake, I would jump at the chance to buy 1000 Gold caches in bulk. I'm probably willing to pay more than 2 B for them too. xP
Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 10:39 am
Yami no Sakura
Sphyxia
You're welcome, and thank you for reading my long reply. I'm glad it wasn't too confusing.
I think it is a noble effort to promote Alchemy. In truth, the hardest part about Alchemy is just the effort. There are people who only want in for the profit, and they are the ones most likely to quit from the price. A lot of Alchemy is research, which I guess comes as a shock to most people. I can't check right now 'cause Gaia keeps telling me their servers are acting up, but I agree that 10 mil per Ectoplasm probably overpriced. The fact that they're consistently listed at that price means that people are buying them, so in essence, laziness is driving up the price. I mean, I used to sell bundles of Smooth Whetstones for 15k per stone. It's higher than the 8k per Sapphire cache, but people are perfectly willing to pay me an extra 7k each just to save themselves 3 clicks per stone. I guess this is the same principle behind selling ready-made wing components like Ectoplasms.
Saving up 1000 Gold caches will take a long time, but good luck! I vaguely recall someone trying to get 1.8k Gold caches to stock up for wings. I don't know how they went about opening all those base caches 'cause i haven't heard from him since. Anyway...Out of convenience's sake, I would jump at the chance to buy 1000 Gold caches in bulk. I'm probably willing to pay more than 2 B for them too. xP
I did some calculations on the wing mastery another project subject for research I'm doing on my spare time. Right now, the cache count suggest you won't need to reach 1000 gold caches if you want the wing mastery. The number one so far on the list are garnet caches. It's still incomplete. I haven't found anyone doing the same thing other than Stripped Stripes which no clue if she's continuing it.
As for the guy who said he was going to try opening 1.8k gold caches, his name had quinto on its end. same guy who opened 1000 alchemists cases and not finding NSFW formula on the first page of gaia item alchemy. I know somehow since he's the only fellow filipino that practices alchemy on gaia. Not close with him since he overprices a lot. Kinda lonely not being able to tell a fellow countrymen about this system since the usual reactions I get are "its too complicated"
I did some calculations on the wing mastery another project subject for research I'm doing on my spare time. Right now, the cache count suggest you won't need to reach 1000 gold caches if you want the wing mastery. The number one so far on the list are garnet caches. It's still incomplete. I haven't found anyone doing the same thing other than Stripped Stripes which no clue if she's continuing it.
As for the guy who said he was going to try opening 1.8k gold caches, his name had quinto on its end. same guy who opened 1000 alchemists cases and not finding NSFW formula on the first page of gaia item alchemy. I know somehow since he's the only fellow filipino that practices alchemy on gaia. Not close with him since he overprices a lot. Kinda lonely not being able to tell a fellow countrymen about this system since the usual reactions I get are "its too complicated"
I think it would need 1000, though. Worlds suckiest vendor made a backwings formula guide, and it totaled up the cache counts for each pair in the end. It takes 1455 Gold caches to make all 6 wings for Wing Mastery. *cringes at the thought of opening enough base caches for all that*
Wow...if it's the same guy, then daaaamn...he has some major capacity for opening things.
Why the hell did I not see that thread all this time? That certainly shuts me up. cryingcryingcrying
Thank you! You and world's suckiest vendor saved me a lot of time.
edit: btw your aquarium is glowing.
Oops, I guess it fell off the front page of Alchemy Forum. Gonna go bump it up now, thanks for reminding me! ^^ He also made spreadsheets for the quests too, so it's very convenient.
Thanks for notifying me about the aquarium! Gotta bump that too.
Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 3:26 pm
I'm not sure how much I can contribute to this convo, but research shouldn't be an issue. I have a few threads bookmarked (not subscribed, cause that list is wayy too long) of component lists. They're out there, and I always cross reference when attempting to make a formula.
If I need something, I'll buy several mil worth of caches and open them, and go from there. I usually get at least 2-3 Golds from about 5 mil of caches, which isn't bad odds.
What frustrates me the most are the prices of components that don't come from caches. Like Angel/Demon sweat, fabric swatches, ect. I didn't know fabric swatches came from Daily Chance, cause they weren't listed in the Philosopher's component Guide, the component list doesn't list locations of finding them... ect.
That reminds me... after I get my gold wings from Loyal, I should try out your leveling guide, Sphyxia. I'm already playing tiles consistently. Hopefully I'll be able to get to Level 10 rather quickly.
