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Nenanah

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:43 pm


Slandering Jesus
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It is not surprising to hear our glorious Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, slandered by atheists and those from other world religions. However, should such slander be conducted by Christian theologians, preachers and teachers? Should doctrines be embraced that distort the character of our Lord, and which present Him as an unjust, cruel and sadistic tyrant?

We know that the New Testament reveals Jesus Christ as being the Creator and Judge. Therefore, Jesus is the one who determines who does or does not qualify for salvation. And, likewise, Jesus is also the one who determines the rewards and punishments for all human beings. It is in His capacity as Creator and Judge that the character of Jesus Christ is being slandered by two unjust, cruel and sadistic doctrines; furthermore, both of these teachings are contradicted by the vast majority of biblical evidence.

What are these doctrines? The Church’s hell doctrine, regarding the eternal torment of human beings, and the doctrine of Calvinism are the slanderous dogmas to which I am referring.

The Church teaches that Jesus, our Judge, will torment human beings throughout the trillions of years of eternity, as supposed just recompense for a seventy-year lifespan on earth. If hell was limited to one trillion years, that would equal 30,000 years of agonizing torment for each and every minute lived on earth. That equals 14 billion “units” of punishment for every single “unit” of disobedience. Is that equitable justice? Such a system of justice would be considered as cruel, sadistic tyranny if it was practiced anywhere on this planet.

However, what is most important is that this sadistic teaching contradicts the overwhelming weight of biblical evidence. The Bible clearly teaches that eternal life is only available for those who accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. The wicked have not placed their faith in Jesus, so they have no access to eternal life. Therefore, they cannot live forever in hell. And, there are dozens of scriptures which state that the final fate of the wicked is “death”, not an eternal life of pain and agony. There is not one scripture in the entire Bible that specifically and unequivocally states that people live in hell throughout eternity. There are scriptures which state that the hell fire itself is eternal, which is necessary to punish the devil and his evil angels forever, but not one single scripture specifically and unequivocally states that this is the case for lost people.

When you combine the Calvinist predestination doctrine with the Church’s eternal-torment hell doctrine, the God of Christianity is presented as being far more unjust and cruel than the gods of any other religions. Why? Calvinism teaches that Jesus Christ, because Jesus is presented as the Creator in the New Testament, intentionally creates some people to go to heaven and some to go to hell; moreover, the people themselves have no opportunity to change their predestined fate. The ones who Jesus creates for hell will have no option to avoid their painful, horrid, eternal destiny.

Therefore, according to Calvinism, Jesus intentionally creates people with the sole purpose of being able to torture them forever in the fires of hell. This doctrine becomes even more repulsive when you realize that Jesus said that many more people are going to hell than to heaven, because that means that this one-way ticket to hell will be given to the vast majority of human beings.

Fortunately, the overwhelming weight of biblical evidence also contradicts this sick and sadistic doctrine. Jesus Christ is the epitome of mercy, love and equitable justice; He is not the cruel, unjust, sadistic monster portrayed by Calvinism. The Bible clearly states that God wants “all” men to be saved, and that He does not want any to perish, but that He wants “all” to come to repentance (1st Timothy 2:3-4; 2nd Peter 3:9).
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:27 am


Hell is a pagan belief adapted by later Christians and other religions. What scriptures were you referring to for Hell to be for Satan?

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Jewelies

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:54 pm


I agree that we are all called to be saved, but I disagree that hell is not an eternal punishment. Nor do I believe it is tyrannical for God to punish people eternally for their time on Earth.

Think about it. His word states very clearly our instructions. It is put out very plainly before us to either choose God, or not to choose God. We are fully warned what will happen if we do not choose God. If, then, we are fully warned ahead of time what will happen if we don't choose God, I don't see how it is unjust for him to send a person to hell for eternity if they choose instead to live their lives for the pleasures of this world instead of for his glory.

Daniel 12:2
Many of those whose bodies lie dead and buried will rise up, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 25:46
And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.

Jude 7
And don't forget the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring towns, which were filled with sexual immorality and every kind of sexual perversion. Those cities were destroyed by fire and are a warning of the eternal fire that will punish all who are evil.

Revelation 14:9-11
(9)Then the third angel followed them, shouting, "Anyone who worships the beast and his statue or who accepts his mark on the forehead or the hand (10) must drink the wine of God's wrath. It is poured out undiluted into God's cup of wrath. And they will be tormented with fire and burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb. (11) The smoke of their torment rises forever and ever, and they will have no relief day or night, for they have worshiped the beast and his statue and have accepted the mark of his name.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:39 pm


I posted it mainly just because I read it. I figured we could all discuss it. I'll post more about it in a little while. Lately I have been really busy irl. D:

Nenanah

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:55 pm


Technicolored Eyes
Hell is a pagan belief adapted by later Christians and other religions. What scriptures were you referring to for Hell to be for Satan?


I know the verse (it's spoken by Jesus btw):

Quote:
Matthew 25:41 (NIV)

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.





Jesus later prophesied, in a vision he gave to John (aka the book of Revelation), that the devil would be thrown into the lake of fire after his (Jesus') 1,000 year reign on earth:


Quote:
Revelation 20:7-10 (NIV)

7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.



Everything alludes to the same punishment as the devil. There's nothing saying the devil is going to be treated differently than the other people there with him. If anything, the false prophet who got thrown in, before the 1000 year reign of Jesus, is still alive and in torment by the time the devil is released from his prison and thrown into the lake of fire as well. It doesn't say just the devil will be tormented, it said "they", thus including the false prophet and beast. note: the devil gets "sentenced to prison" at Jesus' return; right now he's roaming the earth.


And "hell" itself will be thrown into the lake of fire as well:


Quote:
Revelation 20:11-15 (KJV)

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Side note: unfortunately for us, the English translators translated three entirely different places in the New Testament all as "hell":

      • Tartarus (the current prison of the fallen angels i.e. 2 Peter 2:4),

      • Gehenna (you'll have to look at the Greek to notice that; click the blue number next to "hell" in the following, i.e. Matthew 5:22, sounds like the lake),

      • Hades (where everyone goes to await their resurrection i.e. Luke 16:23, clearly some are in torment others are not in the surrounding verses; and neither of them are in a resurrected state evidenced by the rich man asking Abraham to resurrect Lazarus).


In the Old Testament, we have the concept of Sheol in relation to "the realm of the dead"; Sheol, as well, is translated as "hell" in our English translations (i.e. Deuteronomy 32:22) or sometimes "grave" ( i.e. Genesis 37:35) both of which obscure Sheol's meaning; "grave" makes people think of a graveyard with tombs, but the tombs people are buried in are called "qevurah" in Hebrew not "Sheol", like we find in Genesis 35:20, and yet they translated both qevurah and Sheol as "grave"). Translating it as "hell" obscures it because people don't know which of the three places is being referenced. And arguably, the lake of fire / gehenna is not in Sheol—again, arguably. I can't say either or. Sheol is strong's #H7585, Qevurah is strong's #H6900.


Some of the Newer Translations make the distinction in some places, i.e.

        Revelation 20:11-15 (NIV)

        11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.


        note: if you read the surrounding verses, not just the underline, you see a dead giveaway that they're not the same place; in order to be thrown into the lake of fire, you must be resurrected from death. In order to end up in hell/hades, you just need to die.



I can't speak up for Calvinism, and quite frankly I don't care about man-made doctrine (at the end of the day we're still asked to pray for everyone despite this talk, in the bible, of election/predestination). But the idea of eternal torment is indeed biblical, coming from Jesus' own mouth no less (thus not distorting Jesus true character), and eternal torment is also corroborated by the prophets (which Jewelies quoted from, Daniel to be exact).

There are clearly unpleasant areas of Sheol/the realm of the dead. That is an Old Testament concept, not pagan (note: If you clicked the links, you'll see Sheol is also referenced as the "pit" too):

also note: if I'm quoting from the CJB, it's so I don't have to link to a concordance like I did the others.

Quote:
Isaiah 14:9-11 (CJB)

9 “Sh’ol below is stirred up
    to meet you when you come.
    It awakens for you the ghosts of the dead
    who were leaders on earth;
    it makes all the kings of the nations
    arise from their thrones.
10 They all greet you with these words:
    ‘Now you are as weak as we are,
    you have become like us!
11 Your pride has been brought down to Sh’ol
    with the music of your lyres,
    under you a mattress of maggots,
    over you a blanket of worms.’


Quote:
Ezekiel 32:21 (CJB)

21 From the depths of Sh’ol the mightiest warriors
    will speak of him with those who helped him.
    They went down; they lie still,
    the uncircumcised, killed by the sword.


Quote:
Job 26:5 (CJB)

5 “The ghosts of the dead tremble
    beneath the water, with its creatures.


Why people get unstable denying the concept of a gloomy, unpleasant after life, one which we are aware of upon death, is due to taking Job and Solomon's statements out of context, when they describe what happens upon death to our bodies on the physical plane, and that we can no longer enjoy activities done under the sun (we can't participate in any of it without a body; that doesn't negate consciousness in death, in the realm of the dead). Some are not enjoying the afterlife, others are at rest, yes. The Old Testament is more vague, but Jesus makes it very clear. To deny what Jesus said about hell is what distorts his character. This article is relying too much on human reasoning and not on their messiah's own words.
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