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 Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 1:33 pm
...and no, I'm not talking about the kind of division you do in maths. That's only our second greatest enemy.
There is often a great deal of discussion within nearly all groups of like-minded people about who "the enemy" is, which is usually just anyone and everyone who disagrees on certain key issues.
The religious conservatives generally name atheists, non-heterosexuals, pro-choicers, and liberals as the "enemies" that are "destroying the fabric of society." The non-religious liberals, in turn, generally name pro-lifers, "anti-gays," organised religion, and conservatives as the "enemies" who are "hindering positive social progress."
The reality, of course, is that humanity is its own worst enemy, and the things that truly pose threats to both the fabric of our society and positive social progress are the finger-pointing, irrational hatred, and division that are the results of this sort of binary thinking.
As a society, we here in the west spend so much time concerning ourselves with the morality and the legality of things that amount to little more than people's private personal lives. Can you imagine the positive changes we could make in the world if everyone could put aside their relatively petty differences and we all collectively turned our attention to issues like genocide that is taking place right now, or the spread of AIDS in Africa due to limited access to medical care and information? If we stopped spending money and resources on the "war on drugs" or put aside our feelings about who should be able to marry who, we could focus instead on finding ways to provide the world with clean drinking water, we could greatly reduce (if not completely irradicate) world hunger and find ways to help improve the overall quality of life for those living not just below the poverty line, but at the very bottom of the poverty line.
There are so many awful things going on in the world, and yet the "wedge issues" here in the west that literally decide who we elect into political office are things like same-sex marriage, which god (or lack of god) someone choseschooses to believe in, and whether or not people should be allowed to smoke pot. Really???
And I'm guilty of it, too. I get caught up in these issues because I'm surrounded by them, and because I do have an opinion about them, but sometimes (apparently today is one of those times), I have to stop myself, take a step back, and wonder DEAR GOD WHAT AM I DOING? What are WE, as a collective society, doing? Are we really so privileged and spoiled that THESE are the issues we choose to expend our time and energy on? Obviously they are. And you know what? Shame on us for that. Shame on ME for that.
/soapbox
Thoughts, feelings, opinions?
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Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 3:00 pm
SinfulGuillotine ...and no, I'm not talking about the kind of division you do in maths. That's only our second greatest enemy. There is often a great deal of discussion within nearly all groups of like-minded people about who "the enemy" is, which is usually just anyone and everyone who disagrees on certain key issues. The religious conservatives generally name atheists, non-heterosexuals, pro-choicers, and liberals as the "enemies" that are "destroying the fabric of society." The non-religious liberals, in turn, generally name pro-lifers, "anti-gays," organised religion, and conservatives as the "enemies" who are "hindering positive social progress." The reality, of course, is that humanity is its own worst enemy, and the things that truly pose threats to both the fabric of our society and positive social progress are the finger-pointing, irrational hatred, and division that are the results of this sort of binary thinking. As a society, we here in the west spend so much time concerning ourselves with the morality and the legality of things that amount to little more than people's private personal lives. Can you imagine the positive changes we could make in the world if everyone could put aside their relatively petty differences and we all collectively turned our attention to issues like genocide that is taking place right now, or the spread of AIDS in Africa due to limited access to medical care and information? If we stopped spending money and resources on the "war on drugs" or put aside our feelings about who should be able to marry who, we could focus instead on finding ways to provide the world with clean drinking water, we could greatly reduce (if not completely irradicate) world hunger and find ways to help improve the overall quality of life for those living not just below the poverty line, but at the very bottom of the poverty line. There are so many awful things going on in the world, and yet the "wedge issues" here in the west that literally decide who we elect into political office are things like same-sex marriage, which god (or lack of god) someone choseschooses to believe in, and whether or not people should be allowed to smoke pot. Really???And I'm guilty of it, too. I get caught up in these issues because I'm surrounded by them, and because I do have an opinion about them, but sometimes (apparently today is one of those times), I have to stop myself, take a step back, and wonder DEAR GOD WHAT AM I DOING? What are WE, as a collective society, doing? Are we really so privileged and spoiled that THESE are the issues we choose to expend our time and energy on? Obviously they are. And you know what? Shame on us for that. Shame on ME for that. /soapbox Thoughts, feelings, opinions? People just need to relax and stop saying whose to blame. Cuz that's not christian. And dividing is our enemy.
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Alashuko The Fighter Crew
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Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 5:19 pm
Nearly every religion has divided into different sects
Islam into Sunni/Shia/Sufi,etc.
Christianity into Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox,etc.
Judaism into Orthodox,Conservative,etc.
You get the point
Every religion needs to unite within itself before it can co-exist with other religions
Such as The Abrahamic Religions (Islam,Judaism,Christianity) joining up against our real enemies atheists, satanists,pagans,etc.
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Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 11:45 pm
Haha, why are the conservatives religious and the liberals non-religious? razz You're right that there are particular issues that need more focus, such as world hunger and the growing gulf between rich and poor. But that's easy to say when issues such as whether or not you can marry aren't your issues. When you're the second-class citizen not afforded the same rights as everyone else, getting those rights can be pretty important. Maybe not as important as world hunger, because personal isn't the same as important, but if we were all more concerned about poverty we'd all be democratic socialists. Clearly people are more interested in personal success than community success in many countries, and I think that's partly a cultural thing. And that "personal > community" thing feeds into how you vote. When it comes to whether or not you can access proper medical care or marry the person you love, you're going to vote the way that will get you the most personal freedom. I don't think this issue is related so much to blame but to how much people want to allocate where. Most first-world countries already send millions of dollars in aid to other countries, and as it is people complain that millions are sent elsewhere when they could be spent at home. So you're best off starting at home. But that's hard as hell to get done, too. It has more to do with culture, finance, politics, lobbying, that sort of thing, than it does with scrapping between this and that. And when you vote, you have less choice than you'd like to have. Look at the US. You've got a choice between right wing and further right wing. You'd think they'd socialise their healthcare system, to start with, if sharing was really on the cards. They could even go on hating and blaming each other if it made them happy, and spread the wealth around anyway. But that's not going to happen. The healthcare lobby is astoundingly strong: they spend more than the oil companies. The word "socialist" seems to mean something like "fascist" over there. Is there really much point in voting on economic issues if you end up the loser either way? And, you know, some of it is probably deliberate distraction. "Keep them busy with this abortion bill so they won't notice when we spend another billion on military stuff". That doesn't mean one can lay down one's arms. You have to keep an eye on everything at once. Khalid ibn Walid Such as The Abrahamic Religions (Islam,Judaism,Christianity) joining up against our real enemies atheists, satanists,pagans,etc. Oh, thank you very much. That's real nice, that is. So, Mr Ibn Walid, tell me, if I am your enemy, why do you keep sending me friend requests? Listen, I don't want to be enemies. We can all live in peace here. I have no issue with you or your religion, so long as you don't infringe upon my own rights.
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Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 6:12 am
I understand the sentiment of what you're saying (more focus on caring for the well-being of living things), but this: Quote: Our greatest enemy is division. ...is like saying Jesus is the enemy. That's what he came to do: divide. Matthew 10:34 (NIV)
34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[a]
37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Footnotes:
a. Matthew 10:36 Micah 7:6When we start loving creation more than creator (or vice versa), that's where we get division. His second coming is the one that brings peace, not coincidentally his second coming also destroys the lawless one/antichrist and the wicked (all who worship the beast and cherish sin in their hearts, aka those who haven't repented, as explicitly stated in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:8 though not limited to those verses). He came to separate the "worldly" people from the "spiritual", those living for "pleasure" from those that want to live for God/to please the spirit. There's a mix bag under any label (Christian, Jew, Muslim, Liberal, Conservative, etc...). @Sanguina Cruenta, make no mistake: just because paganism is considered an enemy, it doesn't mean we treat you hatefully. In Christianity, at least, we are to express love to our enemies, fight for their justice (instead of seeking vengeance as a false witness), treat them kindly, not hold grudges against them, nor condescend them as if we're inherently superior (we're all sinners afterall), and we're to seek their well-being as much as ours. That said, the reason why paganism is considered an enemy is because it's about sensuality, as is Satanism and atheism, all about self, our own will, what we want, not the Creator's will. Self-less servitude to the rest of humankind is only part of God's will; the other part of that is living holy, not guided by every whim and desire of the flesh, but guided by God's commands/what pleases the spirit, only by that, not other God(desse)s. Quote: Galatians 5:19-24 (NIV) 19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Quote: 2 Timothy 3:1-5 (NIV) 1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people. Even though we're told not to fellowship with those people, we are allowed to visit with them, like Jesus did, in hopes that they repent. Quote: Mark 2:13-17 (NIV) 13 Once again Jesus went out beside the lake. A large crowd came to him, and he began to teach them. 14 As he walked along, he saw Levi son of Alphaeus sitting at the tax collector’s booth. “Follow me,” Jesus told him, and Levi got up and followed him. 15 While Jesus was having dinner at Levi’s house, many tax collectors and sinners were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him. 16 When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?” 17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” Bottom-line: yeah, there are pleasurable things in the world, but do we love them more than God? when it comes down to choosing what we are guided by: is it our love for worldly things? the pleasures of this world...? or are we guided by his words? self-less in our treatment of others, and self-less when it comes to doing what God wants instead of what we want. That difference in attitude/priorities is what brings division (and thus disagreement). How much or how little we want to give up for God (not just community) is what brings about so many denominations IMO. But division/disagreement within the set-apart body of believers is not tolerated because that means someone is deviating from the truth (hence, the commands for the genuine believers to be united, of one mind, of one voice, that is distinctly different from worldly opinion and in-line with what God says).
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Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 6:13 am
Not to burst any bubbles but Jesus didn't come the first time to really bring Unity in the world. In Luke He says, "Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division." Not to say those with Faith in Christ aren't divided in equal parts, as in one body under the Head of Christ, either.
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Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 7:17 am
Our greatest enemy is offense...
Division isn't a horrible thing. Everyone has their own individuality, their own ideas, and their own relationship with God. It is only natural that people find others with more similarities to them... and that isn't bad.
It is those who manipulate those groups that are at fault... and they manipulate through offense.
The reason groups can't get along is because they get offended with each other. It doesn't only happen in Christianity, but we are talking about a major problem within our religion.
Christians get offended when other Christians don't fall in line with their beliefs. I can give examples...
Some Christians believe that the understanding of a Trinity is paramount to understanding God... Some Christians don't.
Some Christians believe that the name of Jesus is the way of salvation... Some Christians don't put stock in a name and simple believe God made a Way.
Some Christians believe celebrating holidays is wrong... Others feel that celebrations to honor God are a form of praise.
Some Christians believe in a Devil... Others believe in demons.
Some Christians believe the Bible is the inspired word of God... Some believe it is the irrefutable Word.
Some believe that understanding Christian history is just as important as understanding the Bible... Some believe that to look outside the Bible is to be lead astray.
Some Christians believe the only Bible that should be read is the KJV... Others are happy with any Bible translation as long as you can understand it.
Both sides have the same amount of real/physical/solid evidence to support why they feel the way they do, and both parties feel real conviction about their beliefs, but no person can make another accept information contrary to the fully conceived beliefs that have already rooted in their minds (short of extreme and illegal methods sweatdrop ).
Christians get into arguments about the "right" way, and it normally ends up in someone accusing another of being a 'bad' Christian, or worse, and then feelings get hurt.
Focus is shifted in converting Christians to the right way, winning arguments, and remembering each others' 'misguided' ideas. Christian energy is expended in holding onto being offended.
Offense normally solidifies division into equations that just don't work together in regards to Christianity. I think a truly strong Christian body needs to learn how to work together despite our differences. I think that is a part of God's plan for us.
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Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 8:43 am
Sanguina Cruenta Haha, why are the conservatives religious and the liberals non-religious? razz Because that's the stereotype. Obviously that's not always the case. I'm religious and liberalprogressive. (I've recently added "progressive" to my political vocabulary and I'm trying it on for a while instead of "liberal.") And I think people are taking what I said a little too...I don't know, literally? Or maybe division wasn't the right word and people are getting caught up in semantics? Enj fun fact: English is my second language, so despite the fact that I've been fluent for years and am frankly more literate than plenty of native-speakers I've encountered, I'll be honest, most things involving nuances of definitions of words, even if it's a word I introduced to the discussion, are kind of lost on me. Obviously not all people are the same, and it will always be human nature for us to congregate with people who are more like us. An obvious example is in cases of immigration. Here in the UK, we get a lot of immigrants, both legal and illegal (okay, mostly illegal) from various small war-torn eastern European countries that used to be a part of the Soviet Union...or were near the Soviet Union and just sort of got swallowed up by the big communist black hole that was Stalinist Russia. Anyway, they come to the UK for a "new life," they usually work service jobs that pay horribly and they congregate in parts of town according to their country of origin, where they speak their native language all day at home, shop at shops that attempt to emulate the shops in their home country, raise their UK-born children in this environment, and never learn English very well. Despite the fact that they come here for a "better life," when they actually get here, many of them end up living in more or less exactly the same squalor that they left. Not always, of course. And the fact that keeps getting pressed is that they have the opportunity for upward mobility within our society, that they do not have in their home country. And the debate is, of course, ongoing. But I'm not really taking a stance on whether or not they should be here, I'm just using them as an example of how humans tend to take congregating with similar humans to an extreme, and do it quite frequently and in large numbers. Oh, I just thought of a really easy way to explain this to Americans: they're like British Mexicans. (Please nobody hit me, my boyfriend is Mexican and my partner is half Lithuanian, and I'm a legal immigrant, it makes me impervious to racism, I swear!) But racial insensitivity aside, I'm not pitching some sort of Orwellian/Huxley-esque Wold State that robs humanity of its individuality and grows babies in test tubes and completely manufactures society to be devoid of conflict. And even if our individuality and freedom seems like a fair price to pay for the good of society and the good of the world, the fact is that we've already tried that, in Nazi Germany and in Soviet Russia, and currently in North Korea, and the fact is that it sucks. To steal a quote from my partner, even the best communist intentions dissolve into totalitarian regimes. Because unless we literally DO manufacture human beings and brainwash away any sense of individuality and ambition from day one, there will always be someone with a moustache and a bad haircut who will have enough in-born ambition to rise to power and rain on everyone's equality parade. ...somewhere along the way this dissolved into my high school paper on Brave New World with some bad jokes thrown in for flavour. I'm listening to Shostakovich right now, which seems to be imbuing my brain with conflicted feelings about communism and I can't seem to get back on track. (High-five to anyone who knows enough about music history to either laugh or roll their eyes at that last statement.) I seem to have generated some discussion, though, so three cheers for me on that. And three sheers for all of you for finding something to discuss. I guess the overall point I was trying to make in my first post was that, in privileged western society, we seem to have grown so bored with our lives and our generally well-functioning governments that we pick relatively petty issues to be divided about, and that's fine, I guess. One could even make a case for it being evidence of a healthy society when the masses no longer need to focus on survival and therefore have the luxury to focus on the finer moral issues of people's private lives. But now and then, take a moment to step back and at least appreciate the fact that something like pot legalisation is one of our "big issues." I'm not saying that everyone should run off and join the Peace Corps right now, although I think it would be fantastic if we all did (I already tried, about six years ago, turns out they don't think a degree in violin performance is useful), but I think it's important to recognise how inherently privileged most of us are simply based on where we were born, and to be thankful for that. But by all means, continue discussing who our greatest enemy is, I think that makes for far better discussion. .....Gaia just tried to eat my post, at which point I would have had to kill myself. Just a reminder to copy and paste before you hit "submit"!
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