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                     Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:22 pm 
 
 
                        
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			            When someone argues that people should know that having sex can produce a baby, I've often heard a reply something like this:
 "Getting into a car doesn't mean you're asking to get into a car accident. Having sex doesn't mean you're asking for a baby."
 
 First off, I'd like to point out that driving is pretty much a necessity nowadays. It's awfully hard to get by without driving, or having someone else drive you places. Sex is not a necessity, however. Someone can get by in life just fine without ever having sex, except for maybe some social discomfort, but that's about it.
 
 So, how do those two scenarios even compare?
 
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                     Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:00 pm 
 
 
                        
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			            They can be compared because both scenarios have a risk involved. Pretty much anything has a risk to it. I buy a house, I could get robbed, I take a class, I could fail it. I never use that argument though.         
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                     Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 9:43 am 
 
 
                        
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			            The point is that when a person makes a decision that carries with it an inherent risk they shouldn't have to accept the most devastating consequences of that risk if it occurs. The idea is that not having an abortion (i.e. not making the choice that would minimise the amount of damage done to your life and potentially the fetus') is similar to refusing medical treatment after a car accident.
 Sex may not be a necessity in the same sense that eating or drinking is a necessity, but it is important. For many people having sex is an important part of shared intimacy and many sexual people become frustrated if sex is denied. Having sex also releases all sorts of 'feel-good' hormones that do their part to prevent people from becoming depressed or stressed. I also saw some research (on an abstinance-only website!) that I've lost but that suggested that having sex with a partner stimulated the release of chemicals that are not released in masturbation, probably because of the endorphins released in the sweat of your partner. It also suggested that women, particularly, who go without sex for long periods of time are prone to depression. Sex may not be necessary to living but it is necessary to living a full and happy life for many people, especially those in loving, trusting long-term relationships or marriages.
 
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                     Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 1:10 pm 
 
 
                        
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			            You don't have to take a car anywhere at all. Driving is not a necessity. I cannot drive and I still get to where I'm going. Yes, most of the time my husband drive me, but he doesn't have to. There's bikes to travel on, there's public transportation such as busses, and if all else fails there is walking to where you have to go. No one HAS to own a car to get by. But if a person decided to drive or ride with someone, they do consent, in a way, to a car accident. What they do not consent to is laying on the ground and bleeding out because of the accident. They can get medical care and stop being wounded. Equivalently, a woman who gets pregnant and who does not want to be can get medical care and stop being pregnant.         
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                     Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:54 pm 
 
 
                        
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			            Finally, I have got around to replying. Blame the delay on my being lazy, a procrastinator, or all of the above. Nethilia You don't have to take a car anywhere at all. Driving is not a necessity. I cannot drive and I still get to where I'm going. Yes, most of the time my husband drive me, but he doesn't have to. There's bikes to travel on, there's public transportation such as busses, and if all else fails there is walking to where you have to go. No one HAS to own a car to get by. But if a person decided to drive or ride with someone, they do consent, in a way, to a car accident. What they do not consent to is laying on the ground and bleeding out because of the accident. They can get medical care and stop being wounded. Equivalently, a woman who gets pregnant and who does not want to be can get medical care and stop being pregnant.Usually, pregnancy is not a life-or-death situation for the woman. If that were the only time abortion was used, you wouldn't see nearly as many people trying to fight it.  It's more like a car accident that was your fault, where someone else was injured and needs medical care, but because you don't want to have to deal with the insurance issues, you leave that person lying on the road, bleeding and unconscious.  Foetus In Fetu The point is that when a person makes a decision that carries with it an inherent risk they shouldn't have to accept the most devastating consequences of that risk if it occurs. The idea is that not having an abortion (i.e. not making the choice that would minimise the amount of damage done to your life and potentially the fetus') is similar to refusing medical treatment after a car accident.*trying to make some sense out of the above, but it's not working* Quote: Sex may not be a necessity in the same sense that eating or drinking is a necessity, but it is important. For many people having sex is an important part of shared intimacy and many sexual people become frustrated if sex is denied. Having sex also releases all sorts of 'feel-good' hormones that do their part to prevent people from becoming depressed or stressed. I also saw some research (on an abstinance-only website!) that I've lost but that suggested that having sex with a partner stimulated the release of chemicals that are not released in masturbation, probably because of the endorphins released in the sweat of your partner. It also suggested that women, particularly, who go without sex for long periods of time are prone to depression. Sex may not be necessary to living but it is necessary to living a full and happy life for many people, especially those in loving, trusting long-term relationships or marriages.Well, obviously, sex is a must in marriage. Definitely not condemning married couples here. Unless they had abortions.        
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                     Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:57 pm 
 
 
                        
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			            Asmi-chan Foetus In Fetu The point is that when a person makes a decision that carries with it an inherent risk they shouldn't have to accept the most devastating consequences of that risk if it occurs. The idea is that not having an abortion (i.e. not making the choice that would minimise the amount of damage done to your life and potentially the fetus') is similar to refusing medical treatment after a car accident.*trying to make some sense out of the above, but it's not working*Sorry. Nethilia summed most of it up.         
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                     Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 6:27 pm 
 
 
                        
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			            Asmi-chan Nethilia You don't have to take a car anywhere at all. Driving is not a necessity. I cannot drive and I still get to where I'm going. Yes, most of the time my husband drive me, but he doesn't have to. There's bikes to travel on, there's public transportation such as busses, and if all else fails there is walking to where you have to go. No one HAS to own a car to get by. But if a person decided to drive or ride with someone, they do consent, in a way, to a car accident. What they do not consent to is laying on the ground and bleeding out because of the accident. They can get medical care and stop being wounded. Equivalently, a woman who gets pregnant and who does not want to be can get medical care and stop being pregnant.Usually, pregnancy is not a life-or-death situation for the woman. If that were the only time abortion was used, you wouldn't see nearly as many people trying to fight it.  It's more like a car accident that was your fault, where someone else was injured and needs medical care, but because you don't want to have to deal with the insurance issues, you leave that person lying on the road, bleeding and unconscious. But if a woman does not wish to take on the risks of carrying a pregnancy, she does not have to, even if she had sex. I do not have to take on the risks of damage from being hit by a car because I got into one. And people drive away from accidents all the time and are never caught. No one ever caught the people who hit my friend and damaged her kidney. Conceiving a blastocyst or an embryo is not an obligation to remain pregnant.         
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                     Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:51 pm 
 
 
                        
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			            Nethilia Asmi-chan Nethilia You don't have to take a car anywhere at all. Driving is not a necessity. I cannot drive and I still get to where I'm going. Yes, most of the time my husband drive me, but he doesn't have to. There's bikes to travel on, there's public transportation such as busses, and if all else fails there is walking to where you have to go. No one HAS to own a car to get by. But if a person decided to drive or ride with someone, they do consent, in a way, to a car accident. What they do not consent to is laying on the ground and bleeding out because of the accident. They can get medical care and stop being wounded. Equivalently, a woman who gets pregnant and who does not want to be can get medical care and stop being pregnant.Usually, pregnancy is not a life-or-death situation for the woman. If that were the only time abortion was used, you wouldn't see nearly as many people trying to fight it.  It's more like a car accident that was your fault, where someone else was injured and needs medical care, but because you don't want to have to deal with the insurance issues, you leave that person lying on the road, bleeding and unconscious. But if a woman does not wish to take on the risks of carrying a pregnancy, she does not have to, even if she had sex. I do not have to take on the risks of damage from being hit by a car because I got into one. And people drive away from accidents all the time and are never caught. No one ever caught the people who hit my friend and damaged her kidney. Conceiving a blastocyst or an embryo is not an obligation to remain pregnant.Consequently, adequate use of birth control contraceptives result in maybe 1.5-3% of you getting pregnant when you have sex. If you cannot afford to take that 1.5%-3% chance, why are you having sex? I know, I remember your whole story about being married while your husband and yourself live of loans...         
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                     Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 3:57 am 
 
 
                        
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			            Asmi-chan Finally, I have got around to replying. Blame the delay on my being lazy, a procrastinator, or all of the above. Nethilia You don't have to take a car anywhere at all. Driving is not a necessity. I cannot drive and I still get to where I'm going. Yes, most of the time my husband drive me, but he doesn't have to. There's bikes to travel on, there's public transportation such as busses, and if all else fails there is walking to where you have to go. No one HAS to own a car to get by. But if a person decided to drive or ride with someone, they do consent, in a way, to a car accident. What they do not consent to is laying on the ground and bleeding out because of the accident. They can get medical care and stop being wounded. Equivalently, a woman who gets pregnant and who does not want to be can get medical care and stop being pregnant.Usually, pregnancy is not a life-or-death situation for the woman. If that were the only time abortion was used, you wouldn't see nearly as many people trying to fight it.  It's more like a car accident that was your fault, where someone else was injured and needs medical care, but because you don't want to have to deal with the insurance issues, you leave that person lying on the road, bleeding and unconscious. Is it just me, or did the woman's body and her life completely dissapear in your version of the analogy, except to act as some evil hit and run perpetrator....? It's not like I'd have to loan the person I hit my body for nine months, so screw the insurance. If the kid developed in a week and beamed itself out of the womb, you wouldnt' see nearly as many people trying to fight the pro-lifers. It may not be life-and-death, but it is *life* the only one you get, so don't screw it up. Pregnancy does more than cramp your style. It is a permanant, life altering, body altering experience that shouldn't be forced on anyone.         
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                     Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:01 am 
 
 
                        
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			            FreeArsenal Consequently, adequate use of birth control contraceptives result in maybe 1.5-3% of you getting pregnant when you have sex. If you cannot afford to take that 1.5%-3% chance, why are you having sex?You've missed the point. Willing for risk =/= willing for consequences. I'm willing to take the oh, say 60% risk of me busting my a** when I go mountain biking, but in the likely event that I do bust my a** mountain biking, I am emphatically *not* willing to lay there bleeding and do nothing about it. I'm going to get patched up, and goddamnit, fear isn't going to keep me from my life, so I'll do it again, and maybe get patched up again if I have to. Life is about taking risks, and dealing responsibly with the consequences. And responsible doesn't mean sitting around and living with the consequences and doing nothing most of the time.         
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                     Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:51 am 
 
 
                        
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			            cactuar tamer FreeArsenal Consequently, adequate use of birth control contraceptives result in maybe 1.5-3% of you getting pregnant when you have sex. If you cannot afford to take that 1.5%-3% chance, why are you having sex?You've missed the point. Willing for risk =/= willing for consequences. I'm willing to take the oh, say 60% risk of me busting my a** when I go mountain biking, but in the likely event that I do bust my a** mountain biking, I am emphatically *not* willing to lay there bleeding and do nothing about it. I'm going to get patched up, and goddamnit, fear isn't going to keep me from my life, so I'll do it again, and maybe get patched up again if I have to. Life is about taking risks, and dealing responsibly with the consequences. And responsible doesn't mean sitting around and living with the consequences and doing nothing most of the time.I do not agree, when you're taking that 60% risk of hurting yourself, you are only hurting yourself, not others with the consequences. Regardless it still takes time to heal.         
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                     Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 7:40 pm 
 
 
                        
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			            FreeArsenal cactuar tamer FreeArsenal Consequently, adequate use of birth control contraceptives result in maybe 1.5-3% of you getting pregnant when you have sex. If you cannot afford to take that 1.5%-3% chance, why are you having sex?You've missed the point. Willing for risk =/= willing for consequences. I'm willing to take the oh, say 60% risk of me busting my a** when I go mountain biking, but in the likely event that I do bust my a** mountain biking, I am emphatically *not* willing to lay there bleeding and do nothing about it. I'm going to get patched up, and goddamnit, fear isn't going to keep me from my life, so I'll do it again, and maybe get patched up again if I have to. Life is about taking risks, and dealing responsibly with the consequences. And responsible doesn't mean sitting around and living with the consequences and doing nothing most of the time.I do not agree, when you're taking that 60% risk of hurting yourself, you are only hurting yourself, not others with the consequences. Regardless it still takes time to heal.And therein lies the fundamental difference between us.  I don't think the fetus should be valued as "someone" else. It is a living organism. Non-sentient. Unfortunate casualty, but it couldn't be helped.         
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                     Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 8:55 pm 
 
 
                        
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			            cactuar tamer FreeArsenal cactuar tamer FreeArsenal Consequently, adequate use of birth control contraceptives result in maybe 1.5-3% of you getting pregnant when you have sex. If you cannot afford to take that 1.5%-3% chance, why are you having sex?You've missed the point. Willing for risk =/= willing for consequences. I'm willing to take the oh, say 60% risk of me busting my a** when I go mountain biking, but in the likely event that I do bust my a** mountain biking, I am emphatically *not* willing to lay there bleeding and do nothing about it. I'm going to get patched up, and goddamnit, fear isn't going to keep me from my life, so I'll do it again, and maybe get patched up again if I have to. Life is about taking risks, and dealing responsibly with the consequences. And responsible doesn't mean sitting around and living with the consequences and doing nothing most of the time.I do not agree, when you're taking that 60% risk of hurting yourself, you are only hurting yourself, not others with the consequences. Regardless it still takes time to heal.And therein lies the fundamental difference between us.  I don't think the fetus should be valued as "someone" else. It is a living organism. Non-sentient. Unfortunate casualty, but it couldn't be helped.And yet Pro-choice supporters will not agree that the main reason there is anything to debate is that we disagree on what the fetus is, person or parasite.         
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                     Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:09 am 
 
 
                        
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			            FreeArsenal cactuar tamer FreeArsenal cactuar tamer FreeArsenal Consequently, adequate use of birth control contraceptives result in maybe 1.5-3% of you getting pregnant when you have sex. If you cannot afford to take that 1.5%-3% chance, why are you having sex?You've missed the point. Willing for risk =/= willing for consequences. I'm willing to take the oh, say 60% risk of me busting my a** when I go mountain biking, but in the likely event that I do bust my a** mountain biking, I am emphatically *not* willing to lay there bleeding and do nothing about it. I'm going to get patched up, and goddamnit, fear isn't going to keep me from my life, so I'll do it again, and maybe get patched up again if I have to. Life is about taking risks, and dealing responsibly with the consequences. And responsible doesn't mean sitting around and living with the consequences and doing nothing most of the time.I do not agree, when you're taking that 60% risk of hurting yourself, you are only hurting yourself, not others with the consequences. Regardless it still takes time to heal.And therein lies the fundamental difference between us.  I don't think the fetus should be valued as "someone" else. It is a living organism. Non-sentient. Unfortunate casualty, but it couldn't be helped.And yet Pro-choice supporters will not agree that the main reason there is anything to debate is that we disagree on what the fetus is, person or parasite.Of course not.  Because we don't see the fetus as a person, it doesn't get the same consideration from us. The woman is the important part of the equation.         
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                     Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 1:29 pm 
 
 
                        
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			            cactuar tamer FreeArsenal cactuar tamer FreeArsenal cactuar tamer FreeArsenal Consequently, adequate use of birth control contraceptives result in maybe 1.5-3% of you getting pregnant when you have sex. If you cannot afford to take that 1.5%-3% chance, why are you having sex?You've missed the point. Willing for risk =/= willing for consequences. I'm willing to take the oh, say 60% risk of me busting my a** when I go mountain biking, but in the likely event that I do bust my a** mountain biking, I am emphatically *not* willing to lay there bleeding and do nothing about it. I'm going to get patched up, and goddamnit, fear isn't going to keep me from my life, so I'll do it again, and maybe get patched up again if I have to. Life is about taking risks, and dealing responsibly with the consequences. And responsible doesn't mean sitting around and living with the consequences and doing nothing most of the time.I do not agree, when you're taking that 60% risk of hurting yourself, you are only hurting yourself, not others with the consequences. Regardless it still takes time to heal.And therein lies the fundamental difference between us.  I don't think the fetus should be valued as "someone" else. It is a living organism. Non-sentient. Unfortunate casualty, but it couldn't be helped.And yet Pro-choice supporters will not agree that the main reason there is anything to debate is that we disagree on what the fetus is, person or parasite.Of course not.  Because we don't see the fetus as a person, it doesn't get the same consideration from us. The woman is the important part of the equation.And so is sex.         
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