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 Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:46 pm
I recently saw a documentary on tv, about the island called Thera.
It was the market/trading centre of the Minoan culture, about 1500 BC.
It was rich, much due to huge amounts of ... saffron? that grew there.
It was also more advanced than Plato's Greece 1000 years later.
It may also have been ruled by women .......
The island, however, had a great volcano, seemingly just waiting to burst ... and it did.
When it finally burst, probably everyone on the island died within the day, and those trying to flee on ships, died too.
The people on the surrounding islands and lands probably just noticed three things: Darkening of skies in that direction, a loud noise, and a giant wave ....
After that, the seas around Thera was unsailable, due to the water seemingly being hard, but it was really debris from the exploding volcano that was floating around, stopping travel.
It is easy to imagine that people then thought it was swallowed by the sea ... ie: Atlantis.
But, if you compare the info on Thera and its demise with the description on the "whore of babylon":
Rich, market centre of a great culture, remained living there despite constant earthquakes, and on an island in the midterranian(sp?) .... and possibly ruled by women ..... Yet destroyed in one day.
The "Whore of Babylon" is said to lie by great waters ....
Now, further comments and wonderings on this:
If that part of revelations really was past tense already when it was written, then how much of Revelations was past tense already then?
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:12 pm
This is an interesting thought, however, i do not believe it to be an allusion to revelations, but more to the "Tower of Babel."
"Atlantis" appears in Greek Mythology, as well as what you've pointed out here. There are stories of entire countries being reclaimed by the sea:
Avalon
Alexandria
Atlantis
(off of the top of my head.)
Amazons were also rumored to have existed upon these lands, of which the Queen of Amazons died in the Trojan War.
Revelation was the coming of the end of days, and I believe that Revelations has not occured yet.
In Wicca, we believe that Avalon was taken back (much like the Garden of Eden). We also believe that the day Arthur returns will be similar to the second coming of Christ. I feel that not enough of the specifics have been satisfied for it to be a past- tense option.
As for the Tower of Babel, this would mean that the gods themselves were ashamed of the advancement of man, and feared it overcoming them. Alexandria held one of the seven wonders, and history proposed that Atlantis may have been extremely advanced.
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:24 am
From what I understand, Revelations is basically a Christian remake of Daniel. Revelations depends heavily upon Daniel 7, Daniel 8, and Daniel 11. It was apocalyptic literature directed at Rome and the Gentile Christian Churches. It barely made it into canon.
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:00 am
rmcdra From what I understand, Revelations is basically a Christian remake of Daniel. Revelations depends heavily upon Daniel 7, Daniel 8, and Daniel 11. It was apocalyptic literature directed at Rome and the Gentile Christian Churches. It barely made it into canon. Let see if i get this right: You define Revelations as completely invalid as a kind of prophesy, because it is A) Based on clearly past-tense Daniel at the moment and B) Written more for Political and Moral-rising reasons than anything else. Ok, that means that "The whore of Babylon" still could have been Thera/Atlantis .... since what is in it that isn't past tense, is just made up.
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:15 am
Tiina Brown rmcdra From what I understand, Revelations is basically a Christian remake of Daniel. Revelations depends heavily upon Daniel 7, Daniel 8, and Daniel 11. It was apocalyptic literature directed at Rome and the Gentile Christian Churches. It barely made it into canon. Let see if i get this right: You define Revelations as completely invalid as a kind of prophesy, because it is A) Based on clearly past-tense Daniel at the moment and B) Written more for Political and Moral-rising reasons than anything else. Ok, that means that "The whore of Babylon" still could have been Thera/Atlantis .... since what is in it that isn't past tense, is just made up. I discredit Revelations as prophesy because it's not. It's apocalyptic literature. It has some moral meanings that can be derived from it but it's not foretelling any event. I'm not saying it's invalid or not, just that I don't consider it prophesy and that its inclusion was hotly debated. Considering that the number of the beast is the numerology for Nero's name, I'd say that the Whore of Babylon being Rome and the Church in Rome at the time who was trying to play nice with Rome at the time, I'd say that's a safe assumption there.
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:34 pm
rmcdra Tiina Brown Let see if i get this right: You define Revelations as completely invalid as a kind of prophesy, because it is A) Based on clearly past-tense Daniel at the moment and B) Written more for Political and Moral-rising reasons than anything else. Ok, that means that "The whore of Babylon" still could have been Thera/Atlantis .... since what is in it that isn't past tense, is just made up. I discredit Revelations as prophesy because it's not. It's apocalyptic literature. It has some moral meanings that can be derived from it but it's not foretelling any event. I'm not saying it's invalid or not, just that I don't consider it prophesy and that its inclusion was hotly debated. Considering that the number of the beast is the numerology for Nero's name, I'd say that the Whore of Babylon being Rome and the Church in Rome at the time who was trying to play nice with Rome at the time, I'd say that's a safe assumption there. Hmm ... I'm personally still not convinced that it doesn't refer to what i described in the OP ... Partially because i've gotten the impression that Babylon itself no longer existed at that time .... There is also an oddity in the description of "the whore of Babylon", namely that John was brought out into the desert, and there saw the whore, but the angel said that John had seen great waters? .... Just checked out Revelations through the earlier links to Daniel you left: There it is a wilderness, and not the desert .... talking about differences in translation.....
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 3:34 pm
Tiina Brown rmcdra Tiina Brown Let see if i get this right: You define Revelations as completely invalid as a kind of prophesy, because it is A) Based on clearly past-tense Daniel at the moment and B) Written more for Political and Moral-rising reasons than anything else. Ok, that means that "The whore of Babylon" still could have been Thera/Atlantis .... since what is in it that isn't past tense, is just made up. I discredit Revelations as prophesy because it's not. It's apocalyptic literature. It has some moral meanings that can be derived from it but it's not foretelling any event. I'm not saying it's invalid or not, just that I don't consider it prophesy and that its inclusion was hotly debated. Considering that the number of the beast is the numerology for Nero's name, I'd say that the Whore of Babylon being Rome and the Church in Rome at the time who was trying to play nice with Rome at the time, I'd say that's a safe assumption there. Hmm ... I'm personally still not convinced that it doesn't refer to what i described in the OP ... Partially because i've gotten the impression that Babylon itself no longer existed at that time .... There is also an oddity in the description of "the whore of Babylon", namely that John was brought out into the desert, and there saw the whore, but the angel said that John had seen great waters? .... Just checked out Revelations through the earlier links to Daniel you left: There it is a wilderness, and not the desert .... talking about differences in translation..... The Babylonian exile left a huge impression on Hebrew people. The stories were told and passed on to the Hebrew people. We still make references to King Author and other legendary/mythic people today, despite them being gone or not existing.
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:10 pm
Mira_Le_Fey In Wicca, we believe that Avalon was taken back (much like the Garden of Eden). We also believe that the day Arthur returns will be similar to the second coming of Christ. I feel that not enough of the specifics have been satisfied for it to be a past- tense option.
Um, no?
"Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wagh’nagl fhtagn."
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Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:39 am
rmcdra Tiina Brown Hmm ... I'm personally still not convinced that it doesn't refer to what i described in the OP ... Partially because i've gotten the impression that Babylon itself no longer existed at that time .... There is also an oddity in the description of "the whore of Babylon", namely that John was brought out into the desert, and there saw the whore, but the angel said that John had seen great waters? .... Just checked out Revelations through the earlier links to Daniel you left: There it is a wilderness, and not the desert .... talking about differences in translation..... The Babylonian exile left a huge impression on Hebrew people. The stories were told and passed on to the Hebrew people. We still make references to King Author and other legendary/mythic people today, despite them being gone or not existing. That's true, but are there any references to Babylon in any other alleged or actual prophesy between Babylon's fall and "year zero"?
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Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:06 am
Tiina Brown rmcdra Tiina Brown Hmm ... I'm personally still not convinced that it doesn't refer to what i described in the OP ... Partially because i've gotten the impression that Babylon itself no longer existed at that time .... There is also an oddity in the description of "the whore of Babylon", namely that John was brought out into the desert, and there saw the whore, but the angel said that John had seen great waters? .... Just checked out Revelations through the earlier links to Daniel you left: There it is a wilderness, and not the desert .... talking about differences in translation..... The Babylonian exile left a huge impression on Hebrew people. The stories were told and passed on to the Hebrew people. We still make references to King Author and other legendary/mythic people today, despite them being gone or not existing. That's true, but are there any references to Babylon in any other alleged or actual prophesy between Babylon's fall and "year zero"? Matthew 1:11 11 and Josiah the father of Jeconiah and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon. 12 After the exile to Babylon: Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel, Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel, 13 Zerubbabel the father of Abihud, Abihud the father of Eliakim, Eliakim the father of Azor, 14 Azor the father of Zadok, Zadok the father of Akim, Akim the father of Elihud, 15 Elihud the father of Eleazar, Eleazar the father of Matthan, Matthan the father of Jacob, 16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah. 17 Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Messiah. Acts 7:42 But God turned away from them and gave them over to the worship of the sun, moon and stars. This agrees with what is written in the book of the prophets: “‘Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings forty years in the wilderness, people of Israel? 43 You have taken up the tabernacle of Molek and the star of your god Rephan, the idols you made to worship. Therefore I will send you into exile’ beyond Babylon. 1 Peter 5:12 With the help of Silas, whom I regard as a faithful brother, I have written to you briefly, encouraging you and testifying that this is the true grace of God. Stand fast in it. 13 She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you her greetings, and so does my son Mark. 14 Greet one another with a kiss of love. Peace to all of you who are in Christ. (here Peter is using Babylon to refer to Rome)
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Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:34 pm
I doubt you understood what i was asking for here: In the first of your examples, Babylon is just mentioned to set the time, it is not defined in a mythical way. In the second, it is mentioned after "year zero" (the birth of Christ), implying that it really were the diciples that started using "Babylon" to mean something different than the historical Babylon.
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Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:23 pm
Tiina Brown I doubt you understood what i was asking for here: In the first of your examples, Babylon is just mentioned to set the time, it is not defined in a mythical way. In the second, it is mentioned after "year zero" (the birth of Christ), implying that it really were the diciples that started using "Babylon" to mean something different than the historical Babylon. oh I see what you are asking now. 4 Esdras (2 Esdras 3-14) uses "Babylon" as a cryptic for Rome. Why don't you provide your sources for the Whore of Babylon being Atlantis? The name of the documentary would be helpful. Edit: Also why would prior to 1 CE be significant? The comparison of Rome to Babylon is mainly due to the destruction of the 2nd Temple (Since Babylon destroyed the 1st temple). I would think that any writing after 70 CE and prior to 90 CE would be more significant of demonstrating that such a comparison was common and not because it was influenced by the Apocalypse of John.
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Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:13 am
Calelith Mira_Le_Fey In Wicca, we believe that Avalon was taken back (much like the Garden of Eden). We also believe that the day Arthur returns will be similar to the second coming of Christ. I feel that not enough of the specifics have been satisfied for it to be a past- tense option.
Um, no?
"Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wagh’nagl fhtagn."
Um, yes. Alexandrian Wiccans follow the path of the belief of Le Morte D'Arthur. It's been a base of legend for hundreds of years. I think this is off topic in this post, however.
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Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:24 am
Mira_Le_Fey Calelith Mira_Le_Fey In Wicca, we believe that Avalon was taken back (much like the Garden of Eden). We also believe that the day Arthur returns will be similar to the second coming of Christ. I feel that not enough of the specifics have been satisfied for it to be a past- tense option.
Um, no?
"Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wagh’nagl fhtagn."
Um, yes. Alexandrian Wiccans follow the path of the belief of Le Morte D'Arthur. It's been a base of legend for hundreds of years. I think this is off topic in this post, however. "In days of peace, in nights of war
Obey the Laws forever more,"
Alexandrian Wicca isn't even a hundred years old. Proof of that claim?
No, you brought it up so it's not off-topic.
"Misconduct must be answered for
Swear us the chosen: The Alpha Corps!"
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Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:14 am
rmcdra oh I see what you are asking now. 4 Esdras (2 Esdras 3-14) uses "Babylon" as a cryptic for Rome. Why don't you provide your sources for the Whore of Babylon being Atlantis? The name of the documentary would be helpful. Edit: Also why would prior to 1 CE be significant? The comparison of Rome to Babylon is mainly due to the destruction of the 2nd Temple (Since Babylon destroyed the 1st temple). I would think that any writing after 70 CE and prior to 90 CE would be more significant of demonstrating that such a comparison was common and not because it was influenced by the Apocalypse of John. Um, the connection between Thera/Atlantis and the whore of Babylon was "just" a connection i saw. The Documentary on Thera just drew similarities with Atlantis. However, the fact that it was a trade centre, was great, was on an island, and met it demise within appoximately one day, made me short thereafter think of the description on "the whore of Babylon" in Revelations. Also, together with that i have read that describing things in present tense, or future tense were occasionally used to describe things that had happened, and that "revelation" do not have to mean prophesy as such, led to that "revelations" wasn't any prophesy at all, but merely info on what already have happened. Unlike you, i used to think that the Revelations hadn't happened yet, but together with your info, it looks even more like "Revelations" really was a mishmash of sources, together with fantasies derived from a want for vengeance. That made me think that mentioning Rome as Babylon could be something made up by the apostles...... therefor any reference to, for instance, Rome as Babylon before year zero disproves that theory.
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