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 Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 10:02 pm
Taken from M&R. I thought this was a really good question. Ontological Empiricism Again, for anyone that doesn't know me, I'm an Atheist, but this is just for arguments sake. If I ever came upon the decision that there was some sort of higher power, I'd more than likely be a Deist. Why, you may ask? Because I don't believe in the "power of prayer". It doesn't make sense to me. For lack of better words, I believe prayer is mostly only to help the person/people praying to feel better about a situation. Again, why? Because I'm under the impression that God has a grandiose plan for each and every person in this world, or so I'm told. "God works in mysterious ways. was part of His plan."
So God has a plan, and prayer seems -- at least in my eyes -- an attempt at trying to have God change His plan.
For example: Someone's dying for whatever reason. People pray for their recovery. What if that's not in God's plan? What if God's plan is that they're meant to die? I suppose prayer is hoping that their recovery is in alignment with God's plan.
The most pathetic example I can think of was the poll that stated 43% of people believed Tim Tebow was winning games via Divine Intervention. lol
So I guess what this is about is...what do you think about prayer?
Do you pray?
Do you think it works?
Why pray? If God supposedly knows everything, and is in control of everything, why pray at all?
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Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 10:44 pm
rmcdra Taken from M&R. I thought this was a really good question. Ontological Empiricism Again, for anyone that doesn't know me, I'm an Atheist, but this is just for arguments sake. If I ever came upon the decision that there was some sort of higher power, I'd more than likely be a Deist. Why, you may ask? Because I don't believe in the "power of prayer". It doesn't make sense to me. For lack of better words, I believe prayer is mostly only to help the person/people praying to feel better about a situation. Again, why? Because I'm under the impression that God has a grandiose plan for each and every person in this world, or so I'm told. "God works in mysterious ways. was part of His plan."
So God has a plan, and prayer seems -- at least in my eyes -- an attempt at trying to have God change His plan.
For example: Someone's dying for whatever reason. People pray for their recovery. What if that's not in God's plan? What if God's plan is that they're meant to die? I suppose prayer is hoping that their recovery is in alignment with God's plan.
The most pathetic example I can think of was the poll that stated 43% of people believed Tim Tebow was winning games via Divine Intervention. lol
So I guess what this is about is...what do you think about prayer?
Do you pray?
Do you think it works?
Why pray? If God supposedly knows everything, and is in control of everything, why pray at all?I'm going to take a militaristic example for this... Goal: Destroy certain enemy base. Problem: City is between base and army. The problem is ignorable, the main concern is that the enemy base is destroyed. If necessary the city can and will be destroyed as well. The solution to the problem is that the city turns to the army's leaders and requests aid. Realistically, usually something will be offered in return for the civilization's safety. AKA: The city surrenders. But what do you give a divine being who needs no such things? Faith, love, and loyalty. That is all he asks for and if he is to be seen as a father-like figure he will most likely answer prayers that do not alter the grand plan or are not entirely necessary. What he wants is our faith and I think he also wants us to be able to ask him for help.
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Lord Alucard Ere Casanova
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Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 11:14 pm
God has a plan for a plan for a plan for a plan for a plan for a plan for a plan............
Anyways, the branch effect... yes or no... God has a plan for both answers... Hence freewill is choosing which plan... It's like signing a contract that has only one thing you HAVE TO DO, and that is Jesus is your lord and Savior... and then God lists all the options in your life... Do this OR this... or that and that... or this... and that.
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Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 11:39 pm
Qyp God has a plan for a plan for a plan for a plan for a plan for a plan for a plan............ Anyways, the branch effect... yes or no... God has a plan for both answers... Hence freewill is choosing which plan... It's like signing a contract that has only one thing you HAVE TO DO, and that is Jesus is your lord and Savior... and then God lists all the options in your life... Do this OR this... or that and that... or this... and that. That's a good point, Qyp.
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Lord Alucard Ere Casanova
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Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 7:18 am
Qyp God has a plan for a plan for a plan for a plan for a plan for a plan for a plan............ Anyways, the branch effect... yes or no... God has a plan for both answers... Hence freewill is choosing which plan... It's like signing a contract that has only one thing you HAVE TO DO, and that is Jesus is your lord and Savior... and then God lists all the options in your life... Do this OR this... or that and that... or this... and that. Aww... but I want to dance around, Naked, throwing Blue and white confetti into the air, saying "The Sky is falling, the sky is falling" You mean I have to do something else, drats.... biggrin
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Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 7:38 am
rmcdra Taken from M&R. I thought this was a really good question. Ontological Empiricism Again, for anyone that doesn't know me, I'm an Atheist, but this is just for arguments sake. If I ever came upon the decision that there was some sort of higher power, I'd more than likely be a Deist. Why, you may ask? Because I don't believe in the "power of prayer". It doesn't make sense to me. For lack of better words, I believe prayer is mostly only to help the person/people praying to feel better about a situation. Again, why? Because I'm under the impression that God has a grandiose plan for each and every person in this world, or so I'm told. "God works in mysterious ways. was part of His plan."
So God has a plan, and prayer seems -- at least in my eyes -- an attempt at trying to have God change His plan.
For example: Someone's dying for whatever reason. People pray for their recovery. What if that's not in God's plan? What if God's plan is that they're meant to die? I suppose prayer is hoping that their recovery is in alignment with God's plan.
The most pathetic example I can think of was the poll that stated 43% of people believed Tim Tebow was winning games via Divine Intervention. lol
So I guess what this is about is...what do you think about prayer?
Do you pray?
Do you think it works?
Why pray? If God supposedly knows everything, and is in control of everything, why pray at all?My real thoughts on the subject matter, now... Prayer, is more for a personal relationship with God. To use the example above, about the dying person, it is the same as a man asking a doctor to save his wife. It is putting voice to your thoughts. Whether the doctor will save her is a different matter, but the concerned thought was still spoken. And sometimes, it is just good to hear a child say, Daddy I need help... I am not a father, but I know how much I love it when my nephew says "Noodie"... his word for roman noodles. Meaning he is hungry, or "Jews" Meaning he wants a drink of some kind... Depending on what he has already had, I can still say wait, or we got other things planned. But, how would he know if he didn't voice his want/need? Prayer is more about communication with God, and a personal relationship with, than a wish making genie....
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Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 11:09 am
glitterboypilot rmcdra Taken from M&R. I thought this was a really good question. Ontological Empiricism Again, for anyone that doesn't know me, I'm an Atheist, but this is just for arguments sake. If I ever came upon the decision that there was some sort of higher power, I'd more than likely be a Deist. Why, you may ask? Because I don't believe in the "power of prayer". It doesn't make sense to me. For lack of better words, I believe prayer is mostly only to help the person/people praying to feel better about a situation. Again, why? Because I'm under the impression that God has a grandiose plan for each and every person in this world, or so I'm told. "God works in mysterious ways. was part of His plan."
So God has a plan, and prayer seems -- at least in my eyes -- an attempt at trying to have God change His plan.
For example: Someone's dying for whatever reason. People pray for their recovery. What if that's not in God's plan? What if God's plan is that they're meant to die? I suppose prayer is hoping that their recovery is in alignment with God's plan.
The most pathetic example I can think of was the poll that stated 43% of people believed Tim Tebow was winning games via Divine Intervention. lol
So I guess what this is about is...what do you think about prayer?
Do you pray?
Do you think it works?
Why pray? If God supposedly knows everything, and is in control of everything, why pray at all?My real thoughts on the subject matter, now... Prayer, is more for a personal relationship with God. To use the example above, about the dying person, it is the same as a man asking a doctor to save his wife. It is putting voice to your thoughts. Whether the doctor will save her is a different matter, but the concerned thought was still spoken. And sometimes, it is just good to hear a child say, Daddy I need help... I am not a father, but I know how much I love it when my nephew says "Noodie"... his word for roman noodles. Meaning he is hungry, or "Jews" Meaning he wants a drink of some kind... Depending on what he has already had, I can still say wait, or we got other things planned. But, how would he know if he didn't voice his want/need? Prayer is more about communication with God, and a personal relationship with, than a wish making genie.... That's a good point. As said in my original post in the M&R, I mostly only witness people praying selfishly, rather than praying just to "talk" to God. But then again...what's selfishness? Praying to receive a call from the job you applied to? Or is praying for someone to recover from an illness considered selfish? For an anecdotal example: Someone I've come to know and love very deeply has advanced stages of brain cancer. I hope and wish every day that his chemo is going well, that it will go into remission, and that he will be able to live much longer, as he is only 23-years-old. I've resorted to prayer. I figured, "what could it hurt?" Maybe someone's listening, maybe not. Regardless...is it selfish? What if God's plan is meant for him to not be cured? I would pray for his recovery, and pray for him to live a long life, but maybe that wasn't part of the plan, do you know what I mean? It wasn't more like thinking it was a vending machine; I'd pop in a prayer and out comes a miracle. But more that...I don't know...Maybe it is selfish of me. I generally hate when people say the clichéd "They're in a better place now", because I'd rather keep and have him here, with me. And even if not with me, he is so young, and has so much to offer, so it seems a bit unfair for him to die so early. The more I talk about it, the more selfish-sounding I become. sweatdrop
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Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 11:49 am
My views are pretty close to what Pseudo had posted in M&R about Open Theology. There is a "plan" per se but its a work in progress sort of thing. What I believe and understand the plan to be is to help us become more caring and compassionate individuals and to provide away to return to God if one desires it. I don't believe "truth" to be a fixed thing but something that is constantly growing. I mean if it didn't grow why would it be call living. As for divine intercession, I do believe that God works through all of us, knowingly or unknowingly. When we choose to be honest and compassionate toward others, we are working with God's will. Might sound a bit humanistic but I don't see humanistic philosophy to opposed to Christianity, I mean it does have roots in Christianity after all. I don't believe that if I jump off a cliff a giant hand is going to pop out and save me from my demise but I do believe that if I told my friends and family that I plan to jump off a cliff they would stop me. Does this mean that God is manipulating them to save me? Of course not, but what it does mean is that the affection that they have for me and my well being is one and the same with the affection that God has for us. They acted on that love that they have to keep me safe, thus what they desired was probably one and same with what I think God would want as well.
Another common misconception a lot of people have about prayer is that it ends when you stop talking. Prayer doesn't end with that. As long as it is still on your mind and you are working toward it, the prayer hasn't ended. Prayer doesn't end until you stop working toward it or that its no longer a concern to you for whatever reason. The saying "two working hands can accomplish more than a thousand hands clasped in prayer" is meaningless to me since I see two working hands as being in prayer as well.
I feel like I'm rambling now.
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Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 4:37 pm
Ontological Empiricism That's a good point. As said in my original post in the M&R, I mostly only witness people praying selfishly, rather than praying just to "talk" to God. But then again...what's selfishness? Praying to receive a call from the job you applied to? Or is praying for someone to recover from an illness considered selfish? For an anecdotal example: Someone I've come to know and love very deeply has advanced stages of brain cancer. I hope and wish every day that his chemo is going well, that it will go into remission, and that he will be able to live much longer, as he is only 23-years-old. I've resorted to prayer. I figured, "what could it hurt?" Maybe someone's listening, maybe not. Regardless...is it selfish? What if God's plan is meant for him to not be cured? I would pray for his recovery, and pray for him to live a long life, but maybe that wasn't part of the plan, do you know what I mean? It wasn't more like thinking it was a vending machine; I'd pop in a prayer and out comes a miracle. But more that...I don't know...Maybe it is selfish of me. I generally hate when people say the clichéd "They're in a better place now", because I'd rather keep and have him here, with me. And even if not with me, he is so young, and has so much to offer, so it seems a bit unfair for him to die so early. The more I talk about it, the more selfish-sounding I become. sweatdrop I don't think you are sounding selfish. There's huge a difference between asking for new iPhone because it's cool and asking a doctor to take care of someone because they are sick and you don't want to see them suffer. If you do want to keep with prayer, you might also want to pray for being able to live each day with him to the fullest, as if it were the last time you'd see him; and for the inner strength to continue on when it is his time to leave/stop existing. If you feel comfortable enough to talk about it in public, we have a vent and chat thread here. A few of us here are familiar with losing people close to us and the grieving process, some of us here are still coping with it. I'm also willing to listen to any PM's as well.
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Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 1:41 pm
rmcdra Ontological Empiricism That's a good point. As said in my original post in the M&R, I mostly only witness people praying selfishly, rather than praying just to "talk" to God. But then again...what's selfishness? Praying to receive a call from the job you applied to? Or is praying for someone to recover from an illness considered selfish? For an anecdotal example: Someone I've come to know and love very deeply has advanced stages of brain cancer. I hope and wish every day that his chemo is going well, that it will go into remission, and that he will be able to live much longer, as he is only 23-years-old. I've resorted to prayer. I figured, "what could it hurt?" Maybe someone's listening, maybe not. Regardless...is it selfish? What if God's plan is meant for him to not be cured? I would pray for his recovery, and pray for him to live a long life, but maybe that wasn't part of the plan, do you know what I mean? It wasn't more like thinking it was a vending machine; I'd pop in a prayer and out comes a miracle. But more that...I don't know...Maybe it is selfish of me. I generally hate when people say the clichéd "They're in a better place now", because I'd rather keep and have him here, with me. And even if not with me, he is so young, and has so much to offer, so it seems a bit unfair for him to die so early. The more I talk about it, the more selfish-sounding I become. sweatdrop He will be in my prayers....
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Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 3:55 pm
glitterboypilot Qyp God has a plan for a plan for a plan for a plan for a plan for a plan for a plan............ Anyways, the branch effect... yes or no... God has a plan for both answers... Hence freewill is choosing which plan... It's like signing a contract that has only one thing you HAVE TO DO, and that is Jesus is your lord and Savior... and then God lists all the options in your life... Do this OR this... or that and that... or this... and that. Aww... but I want to dance around, Naked, throwing Blue and white confetti into the air, saying "The Sky is falling, the sky is falling" You mean I have to do something else, drats.... biggrin I didn't say that... I see no matter what we choose, God has a plan for it. You choose to go left, God has a plan. You choose to go right, God has a plan. There is nothing he doesn't know...
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Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 9:10 pm
rmcdra Another common misconception a lot of people have about prayer is that it ends when you stop talking. Prayer doesn't end with that. As long as it is still on your mind and you are working toward it, the prayer hasn't ended. Prayer doesn't end until you stop working toward it or that its no longer a concern to you for whatever reason. The saying "two working hands can accomplish more than a thousand hands clasped in prayer" is meaningless to me since I see two working hands as being in prayer as well. But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works ... You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. - James 2:18-24 Sorry, found that, and it matches with the above... going back into my hole now
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Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:49 pm
frog_mage Ontological Empiricism That's a good point. As said in my original post in the M&R, I mostly only witness people praying selfishly, rather than praying just to "talk" to God. But then again...what's selfishness? Praying to receive a call from the job you applied to? Or is praying for someone to recover from an illness considered selfish? For an anecdotal example: Someone I've come to know and love very deeply has advanced stages of brain cancer. I hope and wish every day that his chemo is going well, that it will go into remission, and that he will be able to live much longer, as he is only 23-years-old. I've resorted to prayer. I figured, "what could it hurt?" Maybe someone's listening, maybe not. Regardless...is it selfish? What if God's plan is meant for him to not be cured? I would pray for his recovery, and pray for him to live a long life, but maybe that wasn't part of the plan, do you know what I mean? It wasn't more like thinking it was a vending machine; I'd pop in a prayer and out comes a miracle. But more that...I don't know...Maybe it is selfish of me. I generally hate when people say the clichéd "They're in a better place now", because I'd rather keep and have him here, with me. And even if not with me, he is so young, and has so much to offer, so it seems a bit unfair for him to die so early. The more I talk about it, the more selfish-sounding I become. sweatdrop He will be in my prayers.... Thank you. It is comforting to me when there are people who have him in their heart, thoughts, and prayers.
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Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:41 am
I also see plenty of people praying for selfish reasons. Things like "I didn't save enough money to pay the bills this month. I'm praying for God to give me money in the form of handouts from friends and family."
I prefer to think along these lines. That praying won't necessarily change what's coming.
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Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:47 am
Lexima I also see plenty of people praying for selfish reasons. Things like "I didn't save enough money to pay the bills this month. I'm praying for God to give me money in the form of handouts from friends and family." I prefer to think along these lines. That praying won't necessarily change what's coming. I'm actually at a loss for words. Since when did asking for charity become selfish? The god of vengeance that you are promoting is not just. Without mercy there is no justice.
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