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 Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 9:25 am
I kinda wondered how many people really challenge themselves on the what-ifs like I do...
I know some people in this guild do, as I have seen them do it... but what about everyone else... Is mentally challenging your spiritual self a purposely practiced habit among most, or are questions that challenge your belief something that is uncomfortable and to be avoided...
What I mean by challenging your spiritual on an intellectual level is doing so by asking questions that would have the potential to alter the religion as a whole... Things that could possibly impact your faith if the established religion was shaken...
I find that intelligent atheists and agnostic friends pose the questions I would never think to consider myself...
Some of these questions have been considered here.
One such question that Rob is fond of:
What if the bones of Jesus were found, and they could be undeniably proven to be the bones of Jesus? Could you still be a Christian?
I have also started rereading a couple of books I have that propose that Jesus had a wife and child:
What if it was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus had a family of His own? How would that impact what you believe?
Also, I have one more question for now...
If Jesus wasn't born of a virgin, and if it was proven that the miracles in the Bible were somewhat exaggerated, how would your faith be affected?
I would love to know people's thoughts about challenging the spiritual with the intellectual...
I would also like to know people's answers to the questions... 3nodding
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 9:52 am
What if it was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus had a family of His own? How would that impact what you believe? I was the only one in a class at college, that believed this was wrong. Not because the whole impact it would have, but for Churches (or Jerusalem[sp?] ) are supposed to be the brides of Christ. Just wrapping my head around the idea that it could be false, is about the same as calling some one a Jedi, and not refering to the Star wars kind.
If Jesus wasn't born of a virgin, and if it was proven that the miracles in the Bible were somewhat exaggerated, how would your faith be affected?
Even if they was exaggerated, they still was done on some level, even if it wasn't as big. There is always a grain of truth for a tale...
As for the other question, I have no idea... from a stand point, it would be about the same if they found the bones of Mohammad or the guy from the old testiment that was called up to heaven, bypassing death...
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 10:01 am
The family of Jesus and not born of a virgin has crossed my mind... But meh, God is is the creator... I do not see how it's impossible for him to just make a woman pregnant spontaneously. But what ever. Jesus having kids... I dunno... that seems far too Da Vinci Code bull to me.
But the bones of Jesus, well, that would be near impossible. Like, there is still unnamed bodies of soldiers of WW1/2, if they can't even find out who they are... I do not ever see the bones of Jesus being identified...
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 10:02 am
frog_mage What if it was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus had a family of His own? How would that impact what you believe? I was the only one in a class at college, that believed this was wrong. Not because the whole impact it would have, but for Churches (or Jerusalem[sp?] ) are supposed to be the brides of Christ. Just wrapping my head around the idea that it could be false, is about the same as calling some one a Jedi, and not refering to the Star wars kind. If Jesus wasn't born of a virgin, and if it was proven that the miracles in the Bible were somewhat exaggerated, how would your faith be affected?Even if they was exaggerated, they still was done on some level, even if it wasn't as big. There is always a grain of truth for a tale... As for the other question, I have no idea... from a stand point, it would be about the same if they found the bones of Mohammad or the guy from the old testiment that was called up to heaven, bypassing death... Elijah...
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 10:04 am
Qyp frog_mage What if it was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus had a family of His own? How would that impact what you believe? I was the only one in a class at college, that believed this was wrong. Not because the whole impact it would have, but for Churches (or Jerusalem[sp?] ) are supposed to be the brides of Christ. Just wrapping my head around the idea that it could be false, is about the same as calling some one a Jedi, and not refering to the Star wars kind. If Jesus wasn't born of a virgin, and if it was proven that the miracles in the Bible were somewhat exaggerated, how would your faith be affected?Even if they was exaggerated, they still was done on some level, even if it wasn't as big. There is always a grain of truth for a tale... As for the other question, I have no idea... from a stand point, it would be about the same if they found the bones of Mohammad or the guy from the old testiment that was called up to heaven, bypassing death... Elijah... Thank you, I couldn't remember his name to save my life... razz
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 10:18 am
frog_mage Qyp frog_mage What if it was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus had a family of His own? How would that impact what you believe? I was the only one in a class at college, that believed this was wrong. Not because the whole impact it would have, but for Churches (or Jerusalem[sp?] ) are supposed to be the brides of Christ. Just wrapping my head around the idea that it could be false, is about the same as calling some one a Jedi, and not refering to the Star wars kind. If Jesus wasn't born of a virgin, and if it was proven that the miracles in the Bible were somewhat exaggerated, how would your faith be affected?Even if they was exaggerated, they still was done on some level, even if it wasn't as big. There is always a grain of truth for a tale... As for the other question, I have no idea... from a stand point, it would be about the same if they found the bones of Mohammad or the guy from the old testiment that was called up to heaven, bypassing death... Elijah... Thank you, I couldn't remember his name to save my life... razz Here's a good way... Do you like Lord of the Rings movies? Frodo Baggins? Elijah Wood? Heh...
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 10:25 am
Qyp frog_mage Qyp frog_mage What if it was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus had a family of His own? How would that impact what you believe? I was the only one in a class at college, that believed this was wrong. Not because the whole impact it would have, but for Churches (or Jerusalem[sp?] ) are supposed to be the brides of Christ. Just wrapping my head around the idea that it could be false, is about the same as calling some one a Jedi, and not refering to the Star wars kind. If Jesus wasn't born of a virgin, and if it was proven that the miracles in the Bible were somewhat exaggerated, how would your faith be affected?Even if they was exaggerated, they still was done on some level, even if it wasn't as big. There is always a grain of truth for a tale... As for the other question, I have no idea... from a stand point, it would be about the same if they found the bones of Mohammad or the guy from the old testiment that was called up to heaven, bypassing death... Elijah... Thank you, I couldn't remember his name to save my life... razz Here's a good way... Do you like Lord of the Rings movies? Frodo Baggins? Elijah Wood? Heh... I like linking things, though, I have only seen the movies once... if you can say that[always in tbs and always catching them at different parts]....and that wasn't in any order. So, sadly that way of remembering isn't going to work All I can tell you about the movies is, the naked thing freaks me out... my precioussss I have been looking for the books though...
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 10:29 am
frog_mage Qyp frog_mage Qyp frog_mage What if it was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus had a family of His own? How would that impact what you believe? I was the only one in a class at college, that believed this was wrong. Not because the whole impact it would have, but for Churches (or Jerusalem[sp?] ) are supposed to be the brides of Christ. Just wrapping my head around the idea that it could be false, is about the same as calling some one a Jedi, and not refering to the Star wars kind. If Jesus wasn't born of a virgin, and if it was proven that the miracles in the Bible were somewhat exaggerated, how would your faith be affected?Even if they was exaggerated, they still was done on some level, even if it wasn't as big. There is always a grain of truth for a tale... As for the other question, I have no idea... from a stand point, it would be about the same if they found the bones of Mohammad or the guy from the old testiment that was called up to heaven, bypassing death... Elijah... Thank you, I couldn't remember his name to save my life... razz Here's a good way... Do you like Lord of the Rings movies? Frodo Baggins? Elijah Wood? Heh... I like linking things, though, I have only seen the movies once... if you can say that[always in tbs and always catching them at different parts]....and that wasn't in any order. So, sadly that way of remembering isn't going to work All I can tell you about the movies is, the naked thing freaks me out... my precioussss I have been looking for the books though... Looking for the books? They should be at any book store... get The Hobbit also, read that first. And if you really like Lord of the Rings, and want to know more about the mythology, read the Simarillion.
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 10:37 am
These questions are purely hypothetical, mind you...
I know it is impossible to find a set of bones over 2000 years old and be able to prove beyond a shadow of an inkling of a doubt who they belong to... But for argument's sake... WHAT IF it happened...
So IF the bones of Christ were found, would you be able to be a Christian anymore?
Are you a Christian because of Who you are told Christ was by people who didn't know his physical incarnation, or are you a Christian because you do what Christ tells us to do and you follow His teachings?
Are you a Christian because of the signs and miracles that Jesus performed, or are you Christian because His Word rings true in your life?
Believing in Christ because you believe in the proof of the miracles of His birth, and the miracles He performed, is like Thomas believing in Christ because he was able to put his hand in the hole on his side.
As to the allegations that Christ had a family, the popularity of those allegations predate the Da Vinci code by 30 years at least... I read Holy Blood, Holy Grail when I was a teenager in the 90's...
I believe that with God, anything is possible, but what if God allowed Jesus a more "normal" life before He came into His ministry? Should that possibility becoming a proven reality be detrimental to the faith of an entire religion?
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 10:48 am
Quote: So IF the bones of Christ were found, would you be able to be a Christian anymore? I read some where that they found the tomb of Christ.... but there is no proof... but as a hypothrea... what ever the word you just said... It would make me beyond sad, because that would throw my entire idea of the after life into question, but stop me form being a Christian no... The endgame prize isn't that important to me, just a supra ultra cool bonus Quote: Are you a Christian because of Who you are told Christ was by people who didn't know his physical incarnation, or are you a Christian because you do what Christ tells us to do and you follow His teachings? though I could be better in my ability... but, B Quote: Are you a Christian because of the signs and miracles that Jesus performed, or are you Christian because His Word rings true in your life? B again Quote: Believing in Christ because you believe in the proof of the miracles of His birth, and the miracles He performed, is like Thomas believing in Christ because he was able to put his hand in the hole on his side. I believe I will be able to do that once I get to heaven, so I can wait and follow the teachings until then Quote: I believe that with God, anything is possible, but what if God allowed Jesus a more "normal" life before He came into His ministry? Should that possibility becoming a proven reality be detrimental to the faith of an entire religion? Again, not really....
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Lord Alucard Ere Casanova
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 11:17 am
What if the bones of Jesus were found, and they could be undeniably proven to be the bones of Jesus? Could you still be a Christian?
Yes. Why not? The bible did say that Jesus resurrected, but didn't it also say he went back to Heaven? The body didn't necessarily disappear with him entirely. Besides, if they find the bones of Jesus and prove undeniably that it was Jesus that means they proved the son of God was real, he was alive, and that is undeniable as well.
What if it was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus had a family of His own? How would that impact what you believe?
I don't think it would really impact me much. Everyone has the right to a family. Though I might wonder what happened to his descendants.
If Jesus wasn't born of a virgin, and if it was proven that the miracles in the Bible were somewhat exaggerated, how would your faith be affected?
Isn't everything exaggerated? People hear things, see things, then tell those things and even when they use as much detail as they can the people who hear it only see it in their own imagination. Then when it's retold that cycle repeats and so on. If Mary was not a virgin, two other questions would present themselves. 1: Is Jesus the son of God or fathered by someone else? 2: Does it really matter?
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 11:28 am
Lord Kilo Von Mortenson If Jesus wasn't born of a virgin, Meaning Mary, was a virgin when she gave birth... not that Christ was a virgin when he was born... smile
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 11:30 am
You might want to include the verses associated with these questions so people could understand why they are faith challengers. Eltanin Sadachbia One such question that Rob is fond of: What if the bones of Jesus were found, and they could be undeniably proven to be the bones of Jesus? Could you still be a Christian?Thanks for the mention biggrin . Yes I would still be a Christian. The finding of his bones would not destroy Christianity, if anything it would reinforce it. Also there is a verse in 1 Corinthians that counters this question, "flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom". Quote: I have also started rereading a couple of books I have that propose that Jesus had a wife and child: What if it was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus had a family of His own? How would that impact what you believe?Not seeing how that would be a deal breaker. It says he was the "Son of Man", why wouldn't he have some human traits. It raises the question if he could "pass on" his divinity to his child but I doubt that it would be transmitted in such a way. Quote: Also, I have one more question for now... If Jesus wasn't born of a virgin, and if it was proven that the miracles in the Bible were somewhat exaggerated, how would your faith be affected?I would love to know people's thoughts about challenging the spiritual with the intellectual... I would also like to know people's answers to the questions... 3nodding This I don't see as deal breaker either. Stories back then were stories that had meanings associated with them. The meaning I see in this narrative is that by being pure and obedient to that perfect love; and have the law at your side as a guide rather than something penitrates, you concieve Christ into the world. Even if it happened literally or not, the meaning I get from this narrative is still there. Forgive any misspellings I have, I'm using IE on a public computer without spell check.
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 7:42 pm
frog_mage Lord Kilo Von Mortenson If Jesus wasn't born of a virgin, Meaning Mary, was a virgin when she gave birth... not that Christ was a virgin when he was born... smile Yes, my eyes have been giving me trouble. My vision will occasionally blur and I'll lose my place while reading, I usually notice when re-reading. I think I caught and corrected myself a moment before you pointed it out. Thank you though.
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Lord Alucard Ere Casanova
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Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 12:27 am
well i believe that jesus was just god comming down to earth to see what we were always complaining about. if we learned that he had kids, and that mary wasnt a virgin i would be fine, in fact i dont really think mary was a virgin anyways.
some of the stories in the bible and the things jesus did i find a bit out there and the bible was written years after christ died so it wouldnt suprise me at all to learn that things werent quite so grand as the bible makes them seem
as for finding jesus' bones, why would that mess up christianity at all? when he left he had to leave his body behind to decompose and be "recycled"
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