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 Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:39 am
A thought popped in my head, what is Heaven going to be like? I mean it is the end goal of all Christians to be there. Personally, I just think it is a place to be near God, To be near the creator of all things, and the savior of all mankind. I haven't given the actual appearance much thought until now. I know the Bible gives a view of Heaven, but many of the verses I have read it is more of a beyond normal imaginary response. With streets of gold, and such. Hell, isn't given much, if any... except for the Lake of fire that God throws Satan and all his demon brothers into in Revelations I just wanted your thoughts on it. Quote: Revelation 22:1-5 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:28 am
Personally I understand heaven and hell to be states of being rather than places per se. Being in a state of peace with God and how one lived one's life without holding on to resentments and passions is heaven. Hell being a state of self-separation from God where one "burns" in their own resentments and passions. Now whether or not this "hell" is permanent or not I don't know.
But again that's just my personal take on it.
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Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:26 am
I dunno, that's beyond my understanding at this point.
I'm guessing Hell isn't so much fire'n'brimstone as it is separation from God, if you take the book of Jonah into account.
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Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:00 pm
John explains what he saw in fleshy earth-bond detail... I am pretty sure he could only explain... well... human-view of it. Like God, Heaven is beyond our comprehension.
Personally, I see Heaven as the Universe almost literally... we get to explore it as we please, the black void would not exist either, it would be all in light... Even though it's filled with light, we can look at the sun, or the earth, or some random planet 100 billion light years away in perfect detail.
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Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:57 am
I really like the way my pastor explained it. I don't have the exact scripture with me at the moment, but the bible says heaven is a place without sin. When Adam and Eve were cast from the garden of Eden it was not simply the humans who received sin. Every rock, stone, plant, and animal throughout the entire earth was infected with sin. So heaven is the place where animals and humans are not cruel, Heaven is the place were all the sins we struggle with will cease to plague us. Animals will no longer be at war with us, we will be able to interact with even the ones that on earth are vicious. All food will taste better, and we will eat not because we have to and we crave it, but because it brings us enjoyment. The scripture states that heaven will even hold colors that we've never seen before, and we will know the answer to all of the questions we want answered. It is without any negative emotion, action, or sin. Our bodies will be perfect again, so hiking racing, rock climbing, you name it, will be something anybody can do and enjoy doing. Good healthy fun will be the only kind there is and we'll be able to take an ecstatic joy from as we glorify God for everything he's given us. He'll give us jobs, but it will be work we enjoy and that satisfies our hearts.
Hell is the opposite, it is with sin and nothing else. Joy, happiness, satisfaction, peace and contentment will not be found there. Think of the one thing in the world you despise doing more than anything else and imagine having to do so repeatedly for the rest of eternity. There is sex there, but without the pleasure God gives it in matrimonial union. There may be partying, alcohol, drugs, and other indulgences people enjoy. But instead of finding satisfaction in the actions, or joy, or anything else there is an aching void, agony, and depression. Not everywhere in hell would be a fiery pit, cold can hurt as badly as fire. Everything is just extreme to the point of pure unadulterated agony.
Heaven is where every wholesome joy we find is magnified to fill our hearts with the beautiful presence of our Lord. Where waterfalls, rainbows, and sunsets hold more beauty than they can obtain on earth. It is fun and excitement and all that is good in his eyes forever.
Hell is where joy and happiness are warped and killed so only negative emotions can be felt. Where any activity you like will be warped to the point that no joy can be found in it and your misery will feed the empty pleasure of demons.
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:52 pm
The ancients believed that Heaven was located literally in the sky. This is where the gods dwelt. With respect to Gehenna, they believed that there were locations where one could enter Gehenna. It wasn't extra-dimensional. The explanations of Heaven and Gehenna are illustrative. For example, it is referred to as " the outer darkness", and some think Gehenna won't be filled with a literal fire because they ask how it could be called "dark" and lit up by fire. That is silly. Here is how.
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:51 pm
Pseudo-Onkelos The ancients believed that Heaven was located literally in the sky. This is where the gods dwelt. With respect to Gehenna, they believed that there were locations where one could enter Gehenna. It wasn't extra-dimensional. The explanations of Heaven and Gehenna are illustrative. For example, it is referred to as " the outer darkness", and some think Gehenna won't be filled with a literal fire because they ask how it could be called "dark" and lit up by fire. That is silly. Here is how. Picture isn't coming up.
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:53 pm
It's a big picture. neutral Maybe this will do. 
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:55 pm
Pseudo-Onkelos It's a big picture. neutral Maybe this will do. Oh cool. Thanks.
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:01 pm
rmcdra Pseudo-Onkelos It's a big picture. neutral Maybe this will do. Oh cool. Thanks. No problem. I know there are different views, and that some don't interpret the fire and darkness to be literal things, but I think they're literal. The Tanakh makes use of flames for the wicked. "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." (Isa. 66:24) My view on Gehenna is leaning toward annihilationism.
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:03 pm
Pseudo-Onkelos rmcdra Pseudo-Onkelos It's a big picture. neutral Maybe this will do. Oh cool. Thanks. No problem. I know there are different views, and that some don't interpret the fire and darkness to be literal things, but I think they're literal. The Tanakh makes use of flames for the wicked. "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." (Isa. 66:24) My view on Gehenna is leaning toward annihilationism. That's my former pastor's view. I'm still figuring out what I believe on it personally. Edit: Correction. Almost forgot he's no longer the official pastor in my group.
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:07 pm
rmcdra Pseudo-Onkelos rmcdra Pseudo-Onkelos It's a big picture. neutral Maybe this will do. Oh cool. Thanks. No problem. I know there are different views, and that some don't interpret the fire and darkness to be literal things, but I think they're literal. The Tanakh makes use of flames for the wicked. "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." (Isa. 66:24) My view on Gehenna is leaning toward annihilationism. That's my former pastor's view. I'm still figuring out what I believe on it personally. Edit: Correction. Almost forgot he's no longer the official pastor in my group. It's gaining acceptance from biblical scholars, but that's not why I'm leaning toward it. I've been looking up the Hebrew words nefesh and ruach, and I haven't found any of them indicating an immortal soul or spirit. Simply put, immortality belongs to God alone because He is the source of life.
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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:41 pm
For me, it all ties back to my personal theology.
We all exist in a state of sin. This is very similar to saying "we are not God". We are able to separate the pain of others from our own, are able to inflict harm on others because we have precisely that sin which allows us to see them as other than ourselves. I see grace as the power to transcend that sin, to pull back toward unity with one another and with God. To stop cutting ourselves off from the most important things and to restore our connection to them.
I don't really think we, in our limited understanding can really truly wrap our minds around 'heaven'. But to me, it isn't about place. It is about attaining that point where grace has triumphed and we have overcome our sin and reunited with God and with one another.
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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:22 pm
I don't spend allot of time thinking about Heaven, really... I used to think about it allot, and allot of times, I just found myself wanting to limit its explanation to things I can compare it to materialistically/physically...
I came to the conclusion that trying to figure out what it would be like is a waste of my time... All I can think about is a place where everyone I love exists, and everything I ever wanted and needed was mine... But the truth is, if I was a spiritual essence, I wouldn't need the things I crave now, and I probably wouldn't want the things I want now either...
But at the same time, if I really think about it, and if I were to believe it is the way we are taught as Christians, then there are going to be people I love, whom I would never see once I died, because they would be condemned... I don't see how I can be happy and blissful knowing that people that I loved are never going to be with me.
In response to my question about loved one who don't/didn't make it to Heaven, I have had a few different Pastors tell me a few different things...
One said that those who do not make it didn't because we didn't do our job as Christians and convert them... To which I said that I would take no responsibility that I didn't deserve, because someone else exercised their own free-will and chose not to convert....
Another said that there is degrees of bliss and degrees of suffering across Heaven and Hell... Some people would live in mansions because of what they accomplished in their life, and some would be basically Heaven's janitors because they 'just made it by the skin of their teeth'... That kinda seemed stupid to me, since people are given capabilities, talents, and situations in this life... How can you gauge something like that?
Then, the one that seemed to make the most sense, and yet seemed the most senseless to me... God, in order to wipe away the tears and sorrow of not seeing certain loved ones again would wipe all memory of them from our minds so we can spend eternity in peace and happiness without them... From the fundamental upbringing I come from, I can seriously see the logic in this, but I have bucked enough of the fundamental, that I can't accept this.
In my own studies, I kinda cling to the fact that the saints shall be the jury at judgment. If Christianity isn't a hypocritical religion when it comes down to the end, then I would like to think that we are held to the same standards that we are in life, only more so... Standards such as Love and Forgiveness... If this is the case, then God can judge the unworthy, but we can have our chance to show love and forgiveness, so that everyone will have a chance at Heaven...
...But all that being said... There are many things in the Bible I do not take as literal... Anything about Heaven and Hell I pretty much automatically chalk to symbolism...
I honestly think that we make our own Heaven or Hell which each decision we make... When we see our life flash before our eyes, the last moments that we reflect what we did with our lives... those moments will be an eternity unto themselves... What will you see that day?... Just a thought... I think I will be pretty happy with mine.
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Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:29 pm
The concept of Hell doesn't work, so I simply refute it. The concept of eternal torment doesn't hold true, because what would happen is we would adjust and adapt to the situation. There is no avoiding this, as the same things that allow us to not only feel but understand pain are the same things that allow us to adapt to painful situations.
It's like touching a hot pan. The more you touch it, the less it burns. Doesn't matter how hot it is.
Of course, the Bible specifically refers to Heaven as being eternal life. Wouldn't Hell, despite being torturous, be eternal life as well? The Bible has one passage about Hell that is specific. Even that can be picked apart, if necessary. Also, considering that up until recently Revelations was not accepted by many theologians as biblical Canon, I really can't trust that to fall back on as relevant information regarding Heaven or Hell.
Heaven I always pictured being somewhat close to as it was seen in Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey. Because they had Aliens there. You gotta have Aliens there.
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