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Eltanin Sadachbia

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:20 pm


I was having issues going to sleep the other night, and then this question popped into my head...

Now, before anyone answers, after I have placed my 'Why I ask this' out there, I want you to really consider all of the implications on either side of the 'What happened'....

Seriously, if we read the "Tower of Babel" incident in the Bible, and we get to the end where God confuses the tongues of the peoples in question, who had set their minds to doing something... When it comes down to it, did God really hamper the free will of humanity by taking away their ability to communicate?

I mean, it's obvious He did, but at the same time, did He go so far as to truly take their ability to act upon their free-will away?...As in, what is the purpose of free-will in this situation?... I know this sounds like a redundant question, and I do hope I am getting the question across right... but I just want to know thoughts...

So... The question assumes a somewhat literal take on the story, so I would love some perspectives from those who take the Bible as literally literal... but at the same time, for me (who takes a more symbolic approach to the Bible), there are implications that our free-will can be compromised, so some perspective from the symbolic standpoint is most certainly welcome as well...
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:28 pm


That's an interesting point. Personally, I see that story as more metaphoric, but from a literal standpoint I'd say it isn't really cheating so much as it is using a loophole. Kinda like "You're free to do what you want, but if you don't do what I want you to do I'll hurt you." In that way the person chooses to do whatever it is the bully wants him/her to do. Whether or not it is still free will is debatable, some would say it isn't because if he doesn't do what the bully wants he'll get hurt. Others say it is free will because he could choose to attempt to run away, fight the bully, get help, etc. That may be straying from the topic though, sorry.

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Eltanin Sadachbia

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:48 pm


Lord Kilo Von Mortenson

No, it's not straying at all...

In fact, you just echoed my original thoughts on the matter...

Loopholes ; defining the definition of free-will in regards to situation; and the possibility of a possible contamination of what someone wants...

I mean, when being confronted by someone who is stifling or even denying you the ability to accomplish what you have set out to do, you aren't focusing on what you really would be focusing on, but how to get back to the point of having control of what you are able to do... You forget what you set out to do in order to achieve a new set of motives placed before you by the person trying to hinder you...

Confusing, but I tried to make it a straight-forward thought...
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:09 pm


From what I understand it's an old Mesopotamian story that got carried over into Genesis. It's ties into the theme of there being consequences for ones actions especially when trying to usurp authority that isn't yours. The people tried to build a tower that would lead them up to the Gods and it's implied that they are declaring themselves equal to the Gods by doing so. YHVH looks down and seeing them doing this. He looks at this and goes, "Oh really now? Hey guys, look at this s**t they are trying to do. Let's see them try to do this now." *snap* And the people now speak different tongues.

Next it illustrates something about the human condition. When we organize to try to do things greater than our station, and adversity strikes and differences pop up we fall apart. Instead of keeping with goal in mind, we are often inclined to bicker with each other and forget the goal we had in place.

I often don't take stories like this too literally since I don't think it was intended to be "God Math" or "God Science" but rather narratives explaining why we do the things we do and why we act the way we do. When ancient people made observations about the natural world, in most cases it reflected the microcosm that was within themselves and how they saw the world through their experiences and cultural filters.

Edit: It should be noted that the authors of this story didn't see YHVH as an omnipotent and omniscient being. Gods in these cultures were seen as like really powerful people, kinda like superheroes. They saw him as the God of the Hebrew people who they regarded as greater than the other gods and just (as justice was considered at the time obviously). In the surrounding Caananite cultures, he was a god of war and peace, complete with a wife/mom (depending on whose source you go off of), Asherah and a dad, El.

rmcdra
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:17 pm


rmcdra


I normally take the story from the Assyrian stand point, and I understand that the god in the original story was not Hebrew.... But I was listening to some fundamental friends of mine talk of the Tower of Babel and how it affects us today, something that happened so long ago besides the whole 'tree thing' (they are literally literal Christians)... I start off on tangents that follow the lines of "If THIS is what I REALLY believed happened as stated word-for-word in the Bible, what would this really say to me?"...

I mean, I started off as a literally literal Christian, but knowing what I do from my familiarity of other religions, and having something of a hobby of learning the ancient stuff, I started realizing there is so much more depth and meaning for me when I try to absorb what I can from the symbolism...

Sometimes though, I find that I could use a bit of simple perspective of what is on the surface... I get so involved in trying to delve as deep as I can, that sometimes, it's hard to find my way back to the surface for a good long breath of fresh air...

So... Listening to my friends hash it out, I normally keep quiet, as I get some really puzzling looks, and sometimes even outright nasty accusations... or a recommendation to visit a pastor in his office so that I can get set straight again... or even a prayer demanding that Satan leave me that I may see clearly... Blah, blah,blah... I have had a few of those and I am quite certain that with as many people that have prayed that I see clearly, I have no doubt that I have good spiritual sight. LOL

But I love the people here even as I get weary of them, and I have thoroughly experienced their care and concern, so I try to respect them, and give back the prayers they give for me.... just a little more discreetly. sweatdrop
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 2:11 pm


Eltanin Sadachbia
I figured you did know. I was more adding that on for the benefit of other guild members. It seems obvious but its often overlooked that the early authors of Genesis didn't have the same view of God like we do. That little bit of clues helps piece some of the puzzle together.

What the Assyrian view point if you don't mind me asking?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 2:15 pm


rmcdra
Eltanin Sadachbia
I figured you did know. I was more adding that on for the benefit of other guild members. It seems obvious but its often overlooked that the early authors of Genesis didn't have the same view of God like we do. That little bit of clues helps piece some of the puzzle together.

What the Assyrian view point if you don't mind me asking?


I should have said story instead of view point redface ... I have a piece together somewhere in one of my books... I will definitely look for it, and if I find it relatively quickly, I will share what it says...
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:54 pm


OK...

So I found a much more complete translation online of the Sumerian parallel to the Tower of Babel... There is much different in the myth, but if you can soldier through it, you won't be able to miss the parallels.

Enmerkar and the lord of Aratta

For anyone who has a bit of knowledge of Sumerian archeology or mythos, the tower of Babel was a temple to Marduk... also keep in mind that Utu is more commonly recognized as Marduk by most people...

The ziggurat that most likely parrallels to the Tower in Christian mythos almost certainly a ziggurat that is known as Etemenanki, which was reportedly never finished until the time of Nebuchadnezzar II... and because of it's unfinished state, may have inspired the merging with the confusion of tongues referred to in the story of Enmerkar that we have in the story of Babel.

In the story of Enmerkar, it is interesting to note that Inana and Marduk were siblings, and her favor fell to the king of Uruk, Enmerkar, her nephew, son of Marduk.... not really important though...

The story goes on to relate the struggle between 2 kings, Enmerkar of Uruk, and an unnamed king of Arrata, to gain Inanna's ultimate favor... Which ultimately stays with Enmerkar, because he built a temple to her...

A reference is made in the story to the beginning of the writing on clay tablets.

The tablets are not understood, and there is a reference to a prayer made by Arrata appealing that the Gods give man one language again... although some scholars have claimed the prayer is asking that mens languages be confused... or some such...

You can also read on to see a reference to a great flood...

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Qyp

PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:35 am


I thought the Tower of Babel was more "Look at these fools, building a tower up high thinking they can reach the heavens! I will end this foolishness now by confusing their tongues!" or something like that. It wasn't really destroying freewill, it was more for their own protection.

rmcdra
It seems obvious but its often overlooked that the early authors of Genesis didn't have the same view of God like we do.

I have also noticed in the Bible, that most look to the sky when God talked to them. Not all the time though. Or like Moses, going to a higher place to be with God. And a lot of hymns and such have Him being up high somewhere.

Also, There is no Hebrew word of Angel right? It was 'Messenger". Which obviously means they never really understood spirituality Until maybe around the time the Book of Daniel was written. Now I love that book. Supposedly it is one of the times Jesus comes down to earth before he is "meant too", when he rescues Daniel from the flames of the furnace.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:00 am


But that's the thing though... I think that if the Tower incident went down like it was written in the Bible, then God wouldn't have had anything to lose by allowing it to be completed...

It seems that the main sin in the OT that was punished was pride, but what kind of pride would men have been able to claim if they had built a tower so high, and yet it wasn't high enough to "reach" God?

...And even though in OT times, we like to think that humanity didn't understand spirituality, I have to wonder sometimes... I mean, seriously, if we believe the Bible as literal, then God had allot more visible interaction with humanity than He does now. They had the Arc, the Holy of Holys, Enoch, Elijah, the Ephod, a Pillar of Fire, Mana... Even when they were dumb-asses... LOL... Even when they were disobedient, they had no doubt that God was there.

... And yes, I know that Jesus and the Holy-Spirit quietly took the place of the visually spectacular so that we may have an inner-spectacular peace, instead of the awe-inspired fear from God-awful signs, but I always will wonder what it was like to have a superstitious fear of those signs yet KNOW they were from God...

Men have always been fools, and humanity has always tried to prove to itself that it can become or even exceed God, yet God decided to scatter those at Babel? I don't see it as protection really, at least not in the way it was taught in Sunday-school...

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:48 am


I do not mean protection in the physical... as you said, Pride, because it was the first "deadly sin" (Lucifer). So He doesn't want to cast every human down AGAIN, when they just started to build a new civilization after the Great Flood, so instead just made then talk differently. And I do not see it as destroying free will, because we can learn other languages. And that must have been around for a long time, bilingualism, the Israelite people must have known Aramaic and Ancient Egyptian, no? Alexander the Great I believe knew Greek and a few other languages of the Persian Empire.

So I guess God did nothing wrong, in the long run. Heck, if you think about it, in some ways, multiple languages caused more uniqueness, individualism, and other stuff like that.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:54 am


Qyp
I have also noticed in the Bible, that most look to the sky when God talked to them. Not all the time though. Or like Moses, going to a higher place to be with God. And a lot of hymns and such have Him being up high somewhere.

Also, There is no Hebrew word of Angel right? It was 'Messenger". Which obviously means they never really understood spirituality Until maybe around the time the Book of Daniel was written. Now I love that book. Supposedly it is one of the times Jesus comes down to earth before he is "meant too", when he rescues Daniel from the flames of the furnace.
The "high" references are probably a combination of cultural and philosophical beliefs. Culturally, people did believe that the ruling gods did reside in the sky. Philosophically, gods were "higher" as in better quality or ranking than humans so if we reside where we do then these gods "must" reside somewhere "higher" than us. Plato alludes to this concept with his world of forms. Plato had a big impact on the development of Judaism and Christianity, than most realize.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:05 am


Eltanin Sadachbia
I don't think people were less spiritual in the OT days, just less aware of superstitions and cultural biases. Well we still are prone to these things and many of the things we do and believe today will probably be regarded in the future as superstitions and cultural biases. But that's the nature of the acquisition of information and development of culture. People today still attribute natural events in whatever shape they take to God or Gods but these are being looked at through a cultural filter. To those within a particular culture such statements make since and will continue to make since as long as it doesn't contradict new information acquired. While I'm no fan of philosophical naturalism, as a methodology it is the most objective way of describing the natural world. The problem of taking philosophical naturalism as anything more than a methodology is that it then becomes prone to the pit falls of superstition and cultural biases just like any other culture.

So were these people less spiritual or stupid, by no means no. They used what information they had at the time to come to their conclusions and beliefs and conveyed such things within their cultural framework, usually to convey a lesson from their culture that they thought should be carried on for future generations.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:31 am


rmcdra
Qyp
I have also noticed in the Bible, that most look to the sky when God talked to them. Not all the time though. Or like Moses, going to a higher place to be with God. And a lot of hymns and such have Him being up high somewhere.

Also, There is no Hebrew word of Angel right? It was 'Messenger". Which obviously means they never really understood spirituality Until maybe around the time the Book of Daniel was written. Now I love that book. Supposedly it is one of the times Jesus comes down to earth before he is "meant too", when he rescues Daniel from the flames of the furnace.
The "high" references are probably a combination of cultural and philosophical beliefs. Culturally, people did believe that the ruling gods did reside in the sky. Philosophically, gods were "higher" as in better quality or ranking than humans so if we reside where we do then these gods "must" reside somewhere "higher" than us. Plato alludes to this concept with his world of forms. Plato had a big impact on the development of Judaism and Christianity, than most realize.

Why do you says gods... are you just generalizing?

Anyway, yeah, I guess Greeks could have been one major influence in modern views of how we seen the Heavens, Hell, etc. Not just Plato though, but Greek Mythology with the Olympians, and all that. Though kind of sad that the most sophisticated and god had to sit in the underworld, and then later be seen as a Satanic being...

Anyway, I guess Monarch titles all came from some one word that was used when their was one language.

Qyp


Qyp

PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:36 am


rmcdra
Eltanin Sadachbia
I don't think people were less spiritual in the OT days, just less aware of superstitions and cultural biases. Well we still are prone to these things and many of the things we do and believe today will probably be regarded in the future as superstitions and cultural biases. But that's the nature of the acquisition of information and development of culture. People today still attribute natural events in whatever shape they take to God or Gods but these are being looked at through a cultural filter. To those within a particular culture such statements make since and will continue to make since as long as it doesn't contradict new information acquired. While I'm no fan of philosophical naturalism, as a methodology it is the most objective way of describing the natural world. The problem of taking philosophical naturalism as anything more than a methodology is that it then becomes prone to the pit falls of superstition and cultural biases just like any other culture.

So were these people less spiritual or stupid, by no means no. They used what information they had at the time to come to their conclusions and beliefs and conveyed such things within their cultural framework, usually to convey a lesson from their culture that they thought should be carried on for future generations.

I think the main problem was they didn't know how to explain stuff. They may have understood it within, but when they went to explain these spiritual beings coming to them, all that came out was "Messenger" or "Bush of Fire". Hebrew/Aramaic could have just had simplicity to it, that kind of destroyed the ability to express the people's imagination to it's fullest.
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