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Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:52 pm
First off, I play toss, so idk that much about terran, but I saw this build, and it might have a future.
basically it opens 2 rax Ghost Academy, getting out mostly marines and ghosts. Some marauders mixed in couldn't hurt, i guess. Then expand, getting a good economy, add on more rax and get a factory or 2 and begin tank production. After a couple of tanks with siege, push out and expand behind it.
After this metagame, transition into building a more Thor centric army, with more ghosts mixed in.
Would this build work? i lost to it in my placement match for season 3, I had no idea how to counter it would it just be my fault for not scouting or sitting back and letting him do this?
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Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:11 pm
I'd have to see a replay to figure out whats strong or weak in it, I'm having a hard time picturing how it could possibly work.
Starting off with early ghosts against toss was a short lived fad I thought, where they would harass your worker line with cloak and snipe for a bit, but most found it's weaknesses far outweighed it's strengths as getting early ghosts weaken your economy and army size early on.
The mid to late game ghosts make much more sense to deal with protoss immortals, archons, sentries and high templars and use the emp as snipe isn't terribly effective against toss.
So until there's something out worth emping it doesn't seem like the greatest choice.
Then to wait until you've got your ghosts, and tanks, and siege mode before expanding, sounds like they should lose right there, and toss should be on 2 bases for a good while and already looking at taking a third if they haven't already, expanding with just a small bioforce of marauders and marines, with a couple of bunkers, and skipping the early ghosts to get faster tanks + siege sounds like the more optimal choice.
Thors are good in any composition, but I think more tanks + mid to late game ghosts and lots of upgrades would be better against protoss, Thors are really effective against zerg, but I'd imagine, that with the use of immortals and stalkers, they wouldn't be as effective. With the exception of being able to stomp out force fields of course, so perhaps a small number of them to help when pushing out would be a good idea, as it would decrease the toss ability to instantly create positions that favour them so that they can massacre armies in small groups while not taking very many casualties.
I dunno though, I'd have to see exact timings, and what they do with their units to really understand how the build could work effectively, but from the sounds of it, it really shouldn't work.
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Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:35 pm
C4D I'd have to see a replay to figure out whats strong or weak in it, I'm having a hard time picturing how it could possibly work. Starting off with early ghosts against toss was a short lived fad I thought, where they would harass your worker line with cloak and snipe for a bit, but most found it's weaknesses far outweighed it's strengths as getting early ghosts weaken your economy and army size early on. The mid to late game ghosts make much more sense to deal with protoss immortals, archons, sentries and high templars and use the emp as snipe isn't terribly effective against toss. So until there's something out worth emping it doesn't seem like the greatest choice. Then to wait until you've got your ghosts, and tanks, and siege mode before expanding, sounds like they should lose right there, and toss should be on 2 bases for a good while and already looking at taking a third if they haven't already, expanding with just a small bioforce of marauders and marines, with a couple of bunkers, and skipping the early ghosts to get faster tanks + siege sounds like the more optimal choice. Thors are good in any composition, but I think more tanks + mid to late game ghosts and lots of upgrades would be better against protoss, Thors are really effective against zerg, but I'd imagine, that with the use of immortals and stalkers, they wouldn't be as effective. With the exception of being able to stomp out force fields of course, so perhaps a small number of them to help when pushing out would be a good idea, as it would decrease the toss ability to instantly create positions that favour them so that they can massacre armies in small groups while not taking very many casualties. I dunno though, I'd have to see exact timings, and what they do with their units to really understand how the build could work effectively, but from the sounds of it, it really shouldn't work. i'll see if i still have the replay. I recently cleared my computer to free up memory, and i'm not sure if i saved it. Even if I did, keep in mind its a silver leaguer vs another silver leaguer, so not the highest quality game in the world razz
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Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:13 pm
as a toss i usually go for a stalker death ball and mix in either collosi/immortal, collosi/void ray, or carriers. against me i have rarely seen ghosts put to much good use since i don't normally use high templars, archons, or guardians and i often get observers fairly quickly, along with cannons watching my front/entrances and armor ups. So i'd say nay on the early ghosts but yay on the early and constant scouting, as for the rest of it don't build a thor eccentric army since immortals have the range upgrade and ultras are more strategically plausible and both could shred through thors. though late game thors might be effective against terrans as long as they don't have numerous ghosts and tanks to feedback&siege them.
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Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:07 pm
realmcutter as a toss i usually go for a stalker death ball and mix in either collosi/immortal, collosi/void ray, or carriers. against me i have rarely seen ghosts put to much good use since i don't normally use high templars, archons, or guardians and i often get observers fairly quickly, along with cannons watching my front/entrances and armor ups. So i'd say nay on the early ghosts but yay on the early and constant scouting, as for the rest of it don't build a thor eccentric army since immortals have the range upgrade and ultras are more strategically plausible and both could shred through thors. though late game thors might be effective against terrans as long as they don't have numerous ghosts and tanks to feedback&siege them. i'm going to take a guess that you aren't that high of a league, are you?
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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:05 am
TheElvanGod realmcutter as a toss i usually go for a stalker death ball and mix in either collosi/immortal, collosi/void ray, or carriers. against me i have rarely seen ghosts put to much good use since i don't normally use high templars, archons, or guardians and i often get observers fairly quickly, along with cannons watching my front/entrances and armor ups. So i'd say nay on the early ghosts but yay on the early and constant scouting, as for the rest of it don't build a thor eccentric army since immortals have the range upgrade and ultras are more strategically plausible and both could shred through thors. though late game thors might be effective against terrans as long as they don't have numerous ghosts and tanks to feedback&siege them. i'm going to take a guess that you aren't that high of a league, are you? That's a pretty bold question/statement to make. I see where you're going with it, but would you mind explaining why you asked the question?
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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:27 am
TheElvanGod realmcutter as a toss i usually go for a stalker death ball and mix in either collosi/immortal, collosi/void ray, or carriers. against me i have rarely seen ghosts put to much good use since i don't normally use high templars, archons, or guardians and i often get observers fairly quickly, along with cannons watching my front/entrances and armor ups. So i'd say nay on the early ghosts but yay on the early and constant scouting, as for the rest of it don't build a thor eccentric army since immortals have the range upgrade and ultras are more strategically plausible and both could shred through thors. though late game thors might be effective against terrans as long as they don't have numerous ghosts and tanks to feedback&siege them. i'm going to take a guess that you aren't that high of a league, are you? i keep going between gold and platinum for the 1v1, but high platinum in 4v4. but i dont see what that has to do with anything
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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:57 pm
realmcutter TheElvanGod realmcutter as a toss i usually go for a stalker death ball and mix in either collosi/immortal, collosi/void ray, or carriers. against me i have rarely seen ghosts put to much good use since i don't normally use high templars, archons, or guardians and i often get observers fairly quickly, along with cannons watching my front/entrances and armor ups. So i'd say nay on the early ghosts but yay on the early and constant scouting, as for the rest of it don't build a thor eccentric army since immortals have the range upgrade and ultras are more strategically plausible and both could shred through thors. though late game thors might be effective against terrans as long as they don't have numerous ghosts and tanks to feedback&siege them. i'm going to take a guess that you aren't that high of a league, are you? i keep going between gold and platinum for the 1v1, but high platinum in 4v4. but i dont see what that has to do with anything im asking cause of that statement "I don't see ghosts too often" I'm sorry if you got the wrong impression. I myself am only in silver. anywho, its to my understanding that ghosts win the tvP match-up. Personally, PvT is my worst match up and i can lose to just about anything, but 90% of the time a ghost in involved one way or another. It strikes me that Ghosts are not used to gold-plat. I'm at the point where my MMR pins me against gold and sometimes even plat, and come to think of it I never face a terran gold or terran plat. My friend whos plat, but his MMR puts him against dia and low-mid masters says that ghosts are unbelievable in those high ranks.
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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:12 pm
TheElvanGod realmcutter TheElvanGod realmcutter as a toss i usually go for a stalker death ball and mix in either collosi/immortal, collosi/void ray, or carriers. against me i have rarely seen ghosts put to much good use since i don't normally use high templars, archons, or guardians and i often get observers fairly quickly, along with cannons watching my front/entrances and armor ups. So i'd say nay on the early ghosts but yay on the early and constant scouting, as for the rest of it don't build a thor eccentric army since immortals have the range upgrade and ultras are more strategically plausible and both could shred through thors. though late game thors might be effective against terrans as long as they don't have numerous ghosts and tanks to feedback&siege them. i'm going to take a guess that you aren't that high of a league, are you? i keep going between gold and platinum for the 1v1, but high platinum in 4v4. but i dont see what that has to do with anything im asking cause of that statement "I don't see ghosts too often" I'm sorry if you got the wrong impression. I myself am only in silver. anywho, its to my understanding that ghosts win the tvP match-up. Personally, PvT is my worst match up and i can lose to just about anything, but 90% of the time a ghost in involved one way or another. It strikes me that Ghosts are not used to gold-plat. I'm at the point where my MMR pins me against gold and sometimes even plat, and come to think of it I never face a terran gold or terran plat. My friend whos plat, but his MMR puts him against dia and low-mid masters says that ghosts are unbelievable in those high ranks. You partly right, that lower level players wont use ghosts as often, due to their tech paths, and higher level of apm necessary to use, however they do not win the meta game against protoss, they're only effective against certain protoss compositions, namely ones with high sentry or archon or high templar counts. For the traditional stalker with robo death balls, those emps are less effective due to collosus range, so it's only natural that you wouldn't see too many terrans effectively using ghosts.
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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:14 pm
C4D TheElvanGod realmcutter TheElvanGod realmcutter as a toss i usually go for a stalker death ball and mix in either collosi/immortal, collosi/void ray, or carriers. against me i have rarely seen ghosts put to much good use since i don't normally use high templars, archons, or guardians and i often get observers fairly quickly, along with cannons watching my front/entrances and armor ups. So i'd say nay on the early ghosts but yay on the early and constant scouting, as for the rest of it don't build a thor eccentric army since immortals have the range upgrade and ultras are more strategically plausible and both could shred through thors. though late game thors might be effective against terrans as long as they don't have numerous ghosts and tanks to feedback&siege them. i'm going to take a guess that you aren't that high of a league, are you? i keep going between gold and platinum for the 1v1, but high platinum in 4v4. but i dont see what that has to do with anything im asking cause of that statement "I don't see ghosts too often" I'm sorry if you got the wrong impression. I myself am only in silver. anywho, its to my understanding that ghosts win the tvP match-up. Personally, PvT is my worst match up and i can lose to just about anything, but 90% of the time a ghost in involved one way or another. It strikes me that Ghosts are not used to gold-plat. I'm at the point where my MMR pins me against gold and sometimes even plat, and come to think of it I never face a terran gold or terran plat. My friend whos plat, but his MMR puts him against dia and low-mid masters says that ghosts are unbelievable in those high ranks. You partly right, that lower level players wont use ghosts as often, due to their tech paths, and higher level of apm necessary to use, however they do not win the meta game against protoss, they're only effective against certain protoss compositions, namely ones with high sentry or archon or high templar counts. For the traditional stalker with robo death balls, those emps are less effective due to collosus range, so it's only natural that you wouldn't see too many terrans effectively using ghosts. But why? if you are going a mech-ing building, similar to the one i mentioned, 1 EMP rids an Immortal's shields, and thats huge.
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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:42 pm
TheElvanGod C4D TheElvanGod realmcutter TheElvanGod realmcutter as a toss i usually go for a stalker death ball and mix in either collosi/immortal, collosi/void ray, or carriers. against me i have rarely seen ghosts put to much good use since i don't normally use high templars, archons, or guardians and i often get observers fairly quickly, along with cannons watching my front/entrances and armor ups. So i'd say nay on the early ghosts but yay on the early and constant scouting, as for the rest of it don't build a thor eccentric army since immortals have the range upgrade and ultras are more strategically plausible and both could shred through thors. though late game thors might be effective against terrans as long as they don't have numerous ghosts and tanks to feedback&siege them. i'm going to take a guess that you aren't that high of a league, are you? i keep going between gold and platinum for the 1v1, but high platinum in 4v4. but i dont see what that has to do with anything im asking cause of that statement "I don't see ghosts too often" I'm sorry if you got the wrong impression. I myself am only in silver. anywho, its to my understanding that ghosts win the tvP match-up. Personally, PvT is my worst match up and i can lose to just about anything, but 90% of the time a ghost in involved one way or another. It strikes me that Ghosts are not used to gold-plat. I'm at the point where my MMR pins me against gold and sometimes even plat, and come to think of it I never face a terran gold or terran plat. My friend whos plat, but his MMR puts him against dia and low-mid masters says that ghosts are unbelievable in those high ranks. You partly right, that lower level players wont use ghosts as often, due to their tech paths, and higher level of apm necessary to use, however they do not win the meta game against protoss, they're only effective against certain protoss compositions, namely ones with high sentry or archon or high templar counts. For the traditional stalker with robo death balls, those emps are less effective due to collosus range, so it's only natural that you wouldn't see too many terrans effectively using ghosts. But why? if you are going a mech-ing building, similar to the one i mentioned, 1 EMP rids an Immortal's shields, and thats huge. Hitting immortals are good and all, but typically the immortals are in smaller numbers, or not even present and they don't provide the tanking capabilities you'd expect them too, even against mech, stalkers tend to be more effective. Stalkers do more damage against armored just as immortals do (though granted not quite as much) and they can blink, zealots with charge are used to tank damage, and the stalkers and collosus can do the damage, against more mech army, I'd suspect you'd get less collosus, and go more mobile gateway army with plenty of upgrades, and perhaps a few immortals and warp prisms sprinkled in, but as immortals are slow and not very mobile, they have to walk through tank fire, pretty much nullifying their shields anyways, with warp prisms they can move around a little bit better, and then it's harder to get ghosts into position to deal with them, especially if protoss is good on keeping their observers around the map. Ghosts are always good against protoss, but not always the best choice unless you can make them REALLY cost effective, if they have a bunch of collosus, you're not going to get very close, if they have mainly gateway units, depleting their shields isn't that big a deal, or worse yet if they have a fairly large air build, your ghosts are borderline useless unless they for some reason clump up all of their voidrays.
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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:06 pm
I see, in your opinion, do you think this build counters something like zealot archon? or is it just impractical?
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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:05 pm
@immortals. They are good for initiating against tanking terrans. Run in a few immortals, then as the tanks shoot their first shots, run in the chargelots. 10 damage max taken per unit from the tanks!
Ofc this is harder than it sounds, but it's really good. I <3 immortals.
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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:11 am
TheElvanGod I see, in your opinion, do you think this build counters something like zealot archon? or is it just impractical? This build being just ghost mech in general, or the actual build stated above, because that build up top, like I said, I don't think should work very well against anything. Ghost mech is really good at dealing with a lot, it would destroy zealot archon of course, it would wipe out at sort of sentry advantages they could get, it can take out high templars, and of course, having emp against protoss can always be helpful, no matter the composition. I don't really like to think in terms of countering builds because in the end, a presumably weak against X build can still win against against the 'stronger' Y build based on any number of factors like economy, position, micro, upgrades and timings. So to say if any one build counters another is kind of touch and go, as you can't really say one way or another, it's all a matter of what you do with it, how you do it and when you do it.
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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:42 am
C4D I don't really like to think in terms of countering builds because in the end, a presumably weak against X build can still win against against the 'stronger' Y build based on any number of factors like economy, position, micro, upgrades and timings. So to say if any one build counters another is kind of touch and go, as you can't really say one way or another, it's all a matter of what you do with it, how you do it and when you do it. This is all true, but you cannot deny the fact that some builds are better suited to combat others. Doing ling/muta against hellion/thor seems kinda bad compared to broodlord/roach. Maybe that isn't the best example. Zealot/archon/sentry combats m/m/m much better than say stalker colossus. Just because he can easily pop out vikings to snipe colossus, and without zealots to buffer, the important stalkers easily fall the marauders or stimmed rines.
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