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Thard_Verad
Crew

Dangerous Genius

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:46 pm


I'm sure many of you have found out by now, but the Grue lives in Deadman's Shadow. It lurks in the darkness and strikes without warning. It can daze an entire crew in an instant and leave before anyone sees anything. Your only hope - aside from praying it doesn't find you?

Solar Rays.

That's right, any crew member who brings Solar Rays will be safe from the random insta-daze. Too bad about the rest of them though.

But why, you ask, am I bringing this up here, of all places? Because from a technical standpoint, this opens up a world of possibilities! What we have here is an event subroutine that checks a player's equipped rings and doles out the results based on whether Solar is worn or not. This means that other things can also make ring-based checks. An archery challenge that requires Hunter's Bow. A treasure chest that must be Bumped. There are plenty of ways to use this new feature.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:23 am


Thard_Verad
I'm sure many of you have found out by now, but the Grue lives in Deadman's Shadow. It lurks in the darkness and strikes without warning. It can daze an entire crew in an instant and leave before anyone sees anything. Your only hope - aside from praying it doesn't find you?

Solar Rays.

That's right, any crew member who brings Solar Rays will be safe from the random insta-daze. Too bad about the rest of them though.

But why, you ask, am I bringing this up here, of all places? Because from a technical standpoint, this opens up a world of possibilities! What we have here is an event subroutine that checks a player's equipped rings and doles out the results based on whether Solar is worn or not. This means that other things can also make ring-based checks. An archery challenge that requires Hunter's Bow. A treasure chest that must be Bumped. There are plenty of ways to use this new feature.


Monsters capable of specific reaction came to mind, but above that, we now got ways of checking for it GLOBALLY, which is even better!

Path of Lava? Have hot foot? Great, you can walk past! Whadyameanitdoesn'tmakeanysense?

DrQuint
Vice Captain

Girl-Crazy Ladykiller


gataka
Vice Captain

Familiar Lunatic

PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:27 am


*grumble, grumble*
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:53 am


gataka
*grumble, grumble*




S̜̙̺̩͈̯̊ͮ̿̉ͭ͆ͩ͘͠ͅp͙̲͖͙͙̱̀̃̌ͣ̈̂̈́ͧ̑͡͝ę̦̲͎̄͝a̴̛̜̥̦̮̪̩̱̙̟̐̃̅̉̓̊̐k̡̝͔̠͙̱̱̻̑̆ ̙̠̩͚̮̞̦͉͎͑ͫ̈́̅̃y̨̗ͩ̐̆ͣ̒ͮͮͮ́͠o̹͙̘̜̓̈ͬ̎̐ͮͥ͊ͨȕ̟͈͚̬̼̱̘̼͌̑̒r̶̫͚̦̰̦̹̫̬͉͆̓ͬ͌͛͜ ̩͖̈ͮ̈́͠m̲͎͎͈ͪ͆ͯͩ͝i̢̗͔̬̺̞͙͗ͪ̐̍̂́͠n̝̖̫̤̿̆̿͘ͅḓ̸̯͈ͥ͂͂́͂͜
̡̱̳͚͉̹̝ͦͥ́̄ͨͤ̌͢͞

DrQuint
Vice Captain

Girl-Crazy Ladykiller


gataka
Vice Captain

Familiar Lunatic

PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:50 am


DrQuint
gataka
*grumble, grumble*


S̜̙̺̩͈̯̊ͮ̿̉ͭ͆ͩ͘͠ͅp͙̲͖͙͙̱̀̃̌ͣ̈̂̈́ͧ̑͡͝ę̦̲͎̄͝a̴̛̜̥̦̮̪̩̱̙̟̐̃̅̉̓̊̐k̡̝͔̠͙̱̱̻̑̆ ̙̠̩͚̮̞̦͉͎͑ͫ̈́̅̃y̨̗ͩ̐̆ͣ̒ͮͮͮ́͠o̹͙̘̜̓̈ͬ̎̐ͮͥ͊ͨȕ̟͈͚̬̼̱̘̼͌̑̒r̶̫͚̦̰̦̹̫̬͉͆̓ͬ͌͛͜ ̩͖̈ͮ̈́͠m̲͎͎͈ͪ͆ͯͩ͝i̢̗͔̬̺̞͙͗ͪ̐̍̂́͠n̝̖̫̤̿̆̿͘ͅḓ̸̯͈ͥ͂͂́͂͜
̡̱̳͚͉̹̝ͦͥ́̄ͨͤ̌͢͞
That new trick of yours is near-unreadable :U

Legend of Zelda, some point a Goriya blocking the way says "grumble, grumble" and you're supposed to figure out he wants to eat, thus you need to feed him monster bait. Here: Meat.

Maybe an Anti Guy: really tough dude guarding a chess in Paper Mario. You can skip the fight by giving him Lemon Candy.

Point: silly stuff. There are more serious applications but that can wait emotion_awesome
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:05 am



Personally, I don't like these sorts of effects. Encouraging styles of gameplay is one thing - building your ringset for you, though? Not fun. whee

I think the only saving grace with this one is that it is rare enough to be considered "silliness", rather than a serious application - if "the grue" were showing up every run, this wouldn't be fun at all.

I'm fine with re-using this system, though, so long as we understand that strictly limiting ring selection isn't fun, and shouldn't be used in any serious manner. There are few things I consider unacceptable when used in the name of humour (and the initial reaction to "the grue" is all that justifies is it, in the end), but I wouldn't really like to see this becoming anything more than that...

Red Kutai
Captain

Benevolent Codger


DrQuint
Vice Captain

Girl-Crazy Ladykiller

PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:55 am


Red Kutai

Personally, I don't like these sorts of effects. Encouraging styles of gameplay is one thing - building your ringset for you, though? Not fun. whee

I think the only saving grace with this one is that it is rare enough to be considered "silliness", rather than a serious application - if "the grue" were showing up every run, this wouldn't be fun at all.

I'm fine with re-using this system, though, so long as we understand that strictly limiting ring selection isn't fun, and shouldn't be used in any serious manner. There are few things I consider unacceptable when used in the name of humour (and the initial reaction to "the grue" is all that justifies is it, in the end), but I wouldn't really like to see this becoming anything more than that...


That's why we shouldn't design these as "all or nothing" situations.
The grue is one of such. If it hits the crew, you die. and to revive will probably mean failing at it due to lack of buffs. Not a very good idea.

But what if, instead, rather than punish the player with such force for not bringing the arbitrarily chosen ring, specific rings would reward them, but not being absolutely necessary?
Or at least no punish them as hard.

Let us say, having a certain ring let's you go down a longer path that has a chest as opposed to none. A good idea would be to avoid having to tell the WHOLE crew to have the ring as well.
Alternatively, a spiked path will do low damage to your crew by just walking trough a section. If someone has gumshoe, they can put gum on sections of the spikes and bridge the players (don't ask how the hell that works, same as with hot foot)
One ring slot is a minor issue. 6, not quite so.

Also, while it'd be nice being a super efficient crew, adding randomness could work here. Let us say one of these optional gates will require an attack ring at complete random from the available. If you really want the gate, you'll want a crew with as diverse rings as possible. How to achieve it? Tell everyone to grab their favorites and then switch around those who don't mind not bringing duplicates. Still restrictive, but somehow, a bit less than current practice (Just you TRY bringing AoE to DMS, even if you like/want it.)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:48 pm


I do agree with Red that this kind of ring check not be used to force a particular ringset, but there's still a lot of new design space open now that the game can check for a ring. For example, since buffs are so commonplace, there could be a dungeon corridor with a painful arrow trap (Think Indiana Jones). A super-buffed crew might be able to sprint across and heal up afterward, but whoever's carrying Pot Lid can cross safely and disarm the trap for the others.

They could even have monsters react in different ways to different rings. Animated Stilts could be tipped over by Bump, or ignited with Hot Foot. Even if there wasn't any strategic advantage, just having an unexpected result from your rings would be something.

Thard_Verad
Crew

Dangerous Genius


ikally

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:18 am


I like the Grue.

Granted, I've never been faced with him/it, so I don't have that deep set hatred yet... Aha. sweatdrop

I just like spontaneity in zOMG. I've always felt that it was something the game lacked. (Discussing spontaneity with Red was actually what landed me an invite to the guild from Quint. I'm a firm believer that these games shouldn't be so... scripted.) For me, the Grue provides it. I like the prospect that something can just shoot up and kill me out of no where and I'll have no say in it (because, let's face it, I'm not changing my rings just because of this one creature).

Being more of a soloist, I avoid crews. When I am in a crew trying to farm DMS, I really need something to just keep my mind off of the dull, repetitive nature of it all. Even different crews tend to take the same path through areas. The Grue just adds pizazz. It's the wrench in the well-oiled machine. I like wrenches.

Creatures like the Grue would only become an issue for me if:
>zOMG made the Grue appear semi-regularly. That's a no-no for me. I don't want to feel like my rings are forced upon me. I like freedom. I like rare instances.
>zOMG made other monsters that, for a lack of a better word, require a certain ring to survive IN THAT AREA. Overkill. Having other beings that dictate my rings would just make me frustrated. It would turn into, "Who has solar? Good. Okay Kally, you take Water Balloon." NO. I don't want my attack rings scrutinized/checked off like buffs! No, no, no, no. However, I'm not sure whether or not I would be fine with something like that in another area. More than one in an area = BAD IDEA. One in each area = Wary of the idea.
>zOMG hated my soul and placed me in 50,000 bad crews and they all forced Solar Rays upon me. I have nothing against Solar Rays. I just have my preferred set of rings (for attacking). I'm not a huge fan of change when the only reason behind it is a rare spawn. -.-"

Edit: Ooo.
What if there was a creature, I'll just call it Creature2, that just appeared ANYWHERE on the map (that means any area, any zone, map, whatever they are) and would kill people like the Grue. So, let's say that Creature2 appeared in a square in Zen. He'd just run around a few boxes and daze people without Fitness. Then he'd vanish. Another time, he might do the same thing to the people in Bill's Ranch or Otami. No Fitness ring? You're at Creature2's mercy... and Creature2 has none.

Oh. And Creature2 is unable to be killed, of course. You might be able to hit him, but his CL should 50.0 or something so, regardless of CL, it's an instant death and even if a "Kill Creature2" crew were to form, he'd vanish too quickly for any significant damage to be done.

He'd be like the little zOMG gremlin! Granted, if something like that were to occur, there could be absolutely no more Grue-like creatures to ever be created. Too many random insta-dazers is... blech.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:45 am


ikally
Edit: Ooo.
What if there was a creature, I'll just call it Creature2, that just appeared ANYWHERE on the map (that means any area, any zone, map, whatever they are) and would kill people like the Grue. So, let's say that Creature2 appeared in a square in Zen. He'd just run around a few boxes and daze people without Fitness. Then he'd vanish. Another time, he might do the same thing to the people in Bill's Ranch or Otami. No Fitness ring? You're at Creature2's mercy... and Creature2 has none.

Oh. And Creature2 is unable to be killed, of course. You might be able to hit him, but his CL should 50.0 or something so, regardless of CL, it's an instant death and even if a "Kill Creature2" crew were to form, he'd vanish too quickly for any significant damage to be done.

He'd be like the little zOMG gremlin! Granted, if something like that were to occur, there could be absolutely no more Grue-like creatures to ever be created. Too many random insta-dazers is... blech.


Replace creature2 with "Deathwing" and this sounds both awkward and awesome.

I'd use airshark raids. I'd add this before making Aekea as the next area.

DrQuint
Vice Captain

Girl-Crazy Ladykiller


ikally

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:46 am


DrQuint
ikally
Edit: Ooo.
What if there was a creature, I'll just call it Creature2, that just appeared ANYWHERE on the map (that means any area, any zone, map, whatever they are) and would kill people like the Grue. So, let's say that Creature2 appeared in a square in Zen. He'd just run around a few boxes and daze people without Fitness. Then he'd vanish. Another time, he might do the same thing to the people in Bill's Ranch or Otami. No Fitness ring? You're at Creature2's mercy... and Creature2 has none.

Oh. And Creature2 is unable to be killed, of course. You might be able to hit him, but his CL should 50.0 or something so, regardless of CL, it's an instant death and even if a "Kill Creature2" crew were to form, he'd vanish too quickly for any significant damage to be done.

He'd be like the little zOMG gremlin! Granted, if something like that were to occur, there could be absolutely no more Grue-like creatures to ever be created. Too many random insta-dazers is... blech.


Replace creature2 with "Deathwing" and this sounds both awkward and awesome.

I'd use airshark raids. I'd add this before making Aekea as the next area.


My thought process to get to Creature2:
-Grue2
-No, that might make people think I wanted another Grue.
-What can I call it?
-Creature.

I just never removed the two.
Deathwing = 50x better.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:31 pm


ikally
I like the prospect that something can just shoot up and kill me out of no where and I'll have no say in it (because, let's face it, I'm not changing my rings just because of this one creature).

While I fully support making good use of the fact that death is cheap in zOMG! (it rarely costs more than about two minutes of walking), the Grue actually does a pretty poor job of that.

It's not exciting - it's not "awesome". It's a line of text and a few dazed players. Landshark is an "awesome" use of the death-is-cheap paradigm. The Grue is - both objectively and comparatively - boring.

The Grue facilitates expression... But barely, and in a poor place. If you happen to carry Solar Rays religiously, you're immune to the Grue. However, DMS is designed specifically so that players can't just bring what they want - you bring what's efficient, or you don't get through. What's more, one ring among 40 is a little slim - if the rings you chose to wear affected the area in many different ways, rather than one specific ring affecting things in one specific way, it would be much more expression-conducive.

However, the Grue does have a simple answer - he's easy to 'solve'. The trouble being that the only solution for the Grue is an inefficient solution for the rest of DMS - and as rare as the Grue is, most players choose to ignore it. So, when they do finally lose to the Grue, they either feel bad for 'choosing wrong' (which isn't fun, especially when the 'right choice' isn't actually better), or they don't care because they realise it's just the cost of 'choosing right' (which, again, isn't necessarily fun).

I'd probably suggest something other than instant dazing - it can culminate in dazing, sure, but dazing itself is pretty unexciting. It would ideally be something that can be 'solved' - it would make more sense spawning an actual enemy (as difficult as you'd like - players will still intentionally spawn it in order to beat it). It would certainly be nice to work something player-choice-related into it, but that seems like a much more difficult inclusion to manage... sweatdrop

Red Kutai
Captain

Benevolent Codger


Thard_Verad
Crew

Dangerous Genius

PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:25 pm


Red Kutai
ikally
I like the prospect that something can just shoot up and kill me out of no where and I'll have no say in it (because, let's face it, I'm not changing my rings just because of this one creature).

While I fully support making good use of the fact that death is cheap in zOMG! (it rarely costs more than about two minutes of walking), the Grue actually does a pretty poor job of that.

It's not exciting - it's not "awesome". It's a line of text and a few dazed players. Landshark is an "awesome" use of the death-is-cheap paradigm. The Grue is - both objectively and comparatively - boring.

The Grue facilitates expression... But barely, and in a poor place. If you happen to carry Solar Rays religiously, you're immune to the Grue. However, DMS is designed specifically so that players can't just bring what they want - you bring what's efficient, or you don't get through. What's more, one ring among 40 is a little slim - if the rings you chose to wear affected the area in many different ways, rather than one specific ring affecting things in one specific way, it would be much more expression-conducive.

However, the Grue does have a simple answer - he's easy to 'solve'. The trouble being that the only solution for the Grue is an inefficient solution for the rest of DMS - and as rare as the Grue is, most players choose to ignore it. So, when they do finally lose to the Grue, they either feel bad for 'choosing wrong' (which isn't fun, especially when the 'right choice' isn't actually better), or they don't care because they realise it's just the cost of 'choosing right' (which, again, isn't necessarily fun).

I'd probably suggest something other than instant dazing - it can culminate in dazing, sure, but dazing itself is pretty unexciting. It would ideally be something that can be 'solved' - it would make more sense spawning an actual enemy (as difficult as you'd like - players will still intentionally spawn it in order to beat it). It would certainly be nice to work something player-choice-related into it, but that seems like a much more difficult inclusion to manage... sweatdrop

Hm... it'd take a lot more coding (and risk breaking what already works), but what if the Grue really were an actual monster? If the screen in DMS suddenly goes dark, it means the Grue is on the prowl. Anyone with Solar Rays will still have a small radius of light around themselves. The Grue itself would be some ridiculously high CL monster, unlikely to be killed. If players can avoid it for x amount of time (or fend it off with Solar Rays attacks), the Grue will leave and the lights return.

We already know the ambient lighting can change dynamically (day/night cycle), and the Grue doesn't need a sprite, he'll just stay away from anyone with Solar Rays. In fact, even a single player could cover the entire crew. If the Grue appears, the others will have to hurry into the spot of light produced by their Solar bearer.
PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:08 am


Thard_Verad
Hm... it'd take a lot more coding (and risk breaking what already works), but what if the Grue really were an actual monster? If the screen in DMS suddenly goes dark, it means the Grue is on the prowl. Anyone with Solar Rays will still have a small radius of light around themselves. The Grue itself would be some ridiculously high CL monster, unlikely to be killed. If players can avoid it for x amount of time (or fend it off with Solar Rays attacks), the Grue will leave and the lights return.

We already know the ambient lighting can change dynamically (day/night cycle), and the Grue doesn't need a sprite, he'll just stay away from anyone with Solar Rays. In fact, even a single player could cover the entire crew. If the Grue appears, the others will have to hurry into the spot of light produced by their Solar bearer.

It would take more code (well, add a new mob that avoids light, add lighting effect based on presence of Solar Rays, and change random event to enemy spawn), but it would make the whole event more exciting - for one, only requiring one player to carry Solar Rays for potential success means a lot. The darkness effect is definitely "awesome", and while it might be perceived as a nuissance, it's still notably less annoying than just dazing right off the bat. What's more, giving players a chance to attempt actually defeating the Grue would interest a lot of players - even given the added challenge that you'd have to do it in the dark (I'd have him set to count down to despawn when all available targets are in the light).

I think that what you described would be a much more exciting random event, proposes a much more workable 'solution' (rather than having everyone wear Solar Rays), and even gives players who want to play the 'guardian' by carrying Solar Rays, a chance to do so. Overall, an exponentially better option, in my opinion... 3nodding

Red Kutai
Captain

Benevolent Codger


Thard_Verad
Crew

Dangerous Genius

PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:07 pm


Well then, shall we propose this to the devs and/or the community at large?
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Technical (Mechanics, Interface)

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