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 Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:14 pm
I've been hesitant about creating this topic for a while but in the spirit of what this guild is about, it should be discussed.
The attitude regarding abortion and when life began in Christian history has been generally mixed. The many early Churches regarded it a sin and believed life began at conception. Later, it wasn't considered at least debatable. In the mid 19th century, it was considered a sin on par with murder by the Catholic Church.
Some interesting notes, both St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas believed in "ensoulment" 40 days after conception, i.e. it wasn't a person until after the first trimester.
Okay discuss and share.
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Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:36 pm
This is a very difficult topic for me. While I, myself am opposed to abortion, I am also opposed to declaring my own morals overother people and what they do with their bodies. So is it a sin? I believe so. Do I have the right to determine the rights of others? Absolutely not.
I also had thought that one got their soul at birth. As Adam got his soul when God breathed life into him, a child gets their soul when they take the first breath of life.
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Contralto in a Corset Vice Captain
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Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:36 pm
I am against it, not on Christianity terms but on my own experiences. I have some high school friends who say it was the worst mistake of their lives... one attempted suicide because of it. Then again, everything isn't with out a flip side. what if the child endangers the mother? Is it alright then or should both mother and child die?
Like I said, I am pro life, I don't even care if the child could be born with a genetic defect, they still should have a chance at living.
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Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:39 pm
I once heard a story about an abortion a mother decided to accept. They taped it and she was able to see what happened after it was over. What she saw was her baby screaming in pain as it was aborted. I don't know how far into the pregnancy she was when she decided to end it, but needless to say she has regretted it ever since.
In my opinion, if a baby can scream for help then the baby is alive. It has a will to survive and I can't see that being there if the baby isn't already alive. I checked for this on youtube, hoping to get confirmation, and I did find a video about it. I don't think it would be appropriate to post here considering the content, but if anyone else wants to look it up just type in "Baby Abortion Video" and see what you find.
I have always been strictly against abortion. I see it as murder and have a low opinion that I fail to get over concerning women who accept abortion and do not remorse after.
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Lord Alucard Ere Casanova
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Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:34 pm
Well I'll throw in my two cents. I don't believe the embryo is a person until after the first trimester. I have sympathy for the women that do choose to have an abortion because despite how many make it out, it is a painful decision to make. I think its sick and wrong that people push or treat pregnancy as some sort of "divine punishment" because a woman wishes to have sex. I find it disturbing that many people who are against abortion are unwilling to help these women in raising these children they are forced to give birth to. I find it upsetting that many pro-life camps do little to teach men "sexual responsibility" as they seem to make it to be all the "woman's fault". In an ideal world I would like to see there to be less abortions of course since it is a surgery and like all surgeries presents a risk, but with "group homes" in their sad state, there not be pressure on men to be responsible for their sexual decisions, and the lack of concern given to pregnant single women, especially those who are young (and labeled a slut), I think the option of abortion is going to be around for sometime.
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Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:54 am
As an American I believe we have the right to choose abortions if we so desire and I don't think that freedom should be taken away. As an American, however, we also have the right to drink alcohol, smoke tobacco, etc. Freedom without responsibility is chaos. The freedom to choose should not be taken away, but the responsibility to make choices wisely is required if we are to be happy and safe in our freedom.
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Lord Alucard Ere Casanova
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Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 10:02 am
Edit:
I think many times the most responsible thing to do, is to realize you cant take care of a child. Adoption isnt a miracle answer either. Especially since there are already many children, whos parents had no choice but to put them there, that already dont find homes.
As far as the depression felt after an abortion, thats just normal post-partum depression. It happens when you have the baby too, its a hormone triggered reaction to having the embryo leave your body in any way.
(it can get as bad as leading a mother to take her own life or her childs)
Religiously, I feel with the high rate in miscarriages (if you include the amount that doctors speculate happen so early they dont catch it, possibly 1 in 3 pregnancies.) I personally believe that God wouldnt put a soul in something that uncertain.
I see abortion as waiting, not killing. I see it as the mother waiting until she is ready to care for a child, or maybe she never will be ready, and wasnt meant to be. I still see it as making the eventual intended child, just wait to be born.
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Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:09 pm
I'm against abortion. I don't think there is a way to tell a soul has entered at conception or not and it's best not to fool around with that if we don't know. I'm torn on whether it is a good idea to let people have a right to choose it. On one hand I believe it's murder and knowing some people have a great amount of regret later. The other hand is that the child never experienced life, if this was done in time.
I sympathize with people that are raped and get pregnant due to it, but it's not the child's fault it was born. Should the mother have to be reminded of being raped? No, of course not. Should she have to go through the pregnancy, reminding her of the trauma? No. That's because she should not have been raped, but unfortunately they were. Many people are hurt everyday and they have to live with injuries, temporary or not. It's just the way things go. There's the option of adoption, too.
Another issue is "Will the pregnancy kill the mother?" If that's a good possibility, then I do think it's ok to choose one or the other. One can kill in self defense after all. "What if we know the child will be born with some lifelong defects." Admittedly life isn't fair. But those children have the right to find happiness where they can despite their challenges, so I don't think it's ok, if they're going to have problems all their life. Life is life. Life has it's good points. It'd be a shame to miss them.
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Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:22 pm
Prince Darialan Love I'm against abortion. I don't think there is a way to tell a soul has entered at conception or not and it's best not to fool around with that if we don't know. I'm torn on whether it is a good idea to let people have a right to choose it. On one hand I believe it's murder and knowing some people have a great amount of regret later. The other hand is that the child never experienced life, if this was done in time. I sympathize with people that are raped and get pregnant due to it, but it's not the child's fault it was born. Should the mother have to be reminded of being raped? No, of course not. Should she have to go through the pregnancy, reminding her of the trauma? No. That's because she should not have been raped, but unfortunately they were. Many people are hurt everyday and they have to live with injuries, temporary or not. It's just the way things go. There's the option of adoption, too. Another issue is "Will the pregnancy kill the mother?" If that's a good possibility, then I do think it's ok to choose one or the other. One can kill in self defense after all. "What if we know the child will be born with some lifelong defects." Admittedly life isn't fair. But those children have the right to find happiness where they can despite their challenges, so I don't think it's ok, if they're going to have problems all their life. Life is life. Life has it's good points. It'd be a shame to miss them.
To me, the rape comment, is exactly the same as saying that someone who breaks their arm shouldnt be allowed to wear a cast, they should just live with whatever deformity happens.
If people can prevent living with long term effects of being injured, they do.
Second. Before you go around judging something I dont believe you know much about (forgive me if I'm wrong.) Why dont you go help the rape victims that want an abortion?
Go drive them to and pay for every hospital and doctor visit. Pay for the time they miss work. Pay for everything they need to properly take care of themselves while being pregnant. Be at their house all the time, doing the things they can no longer do while being pregnant. Pay for the hospital visit when the child is born. Pay for the mother to get her body back, either through a trainer or re constructive surgery, so its like it never happened. Then find a home for the child. Droppping them at an adoption agency doesnt garuntee them a home in the slightest bit, look up the statistics. Actually find it a home, or take it yourself.
Not willing to? Then dont blame someone else who isnt. Until you're willing to do all that, dont talk about taking away someones right to choose.
(by the way I've barely touched on all the things that would really be required to take full and total care of a pregnant mother)
If it sounds like I'm being very agressive I'm sorry. I'm trying not to be, but that just hit a raw nerve with me.
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Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:32 pm
SterlingRevolver Prince Darialan Love I'm against abortion. I don't think there is a way to tell a soul has entered at conception or not and it's best not to fool around with that if we don't know. I'm torn on whether it is a good idea to let people have a right to choose it. On one hand I believe it's murder and knowing some people have a great amount of regret later. The other hand is that the child never experienced life, if this was done in time. I sympathize with people that are raped and get pregnant due to it, but it's not the child's fault it was born. Should the mother have to be reminded of being raped? No, of course not. Should she have to go through the pregnancy, reminding her of the trauma? No. That's because she should not have been raped, but unfortunately they were. Many people are hurt everyday and they have to live with injuries, temporary or not. It's just the way things go. There's the option of adoption, too. Another issue is "Will the pregnancy kill the mother?" If that's a good possibility, then I do think it's ok to choose one or the other. One can kill in self defense after all. "What if we know the child will be born with some lifelong defects." Admittedly life isn't fair. But those children have the right to find happiness where they can despite their challenges, so I don't think it's ok, if they're going to have problems all their life. Life is life. Life has it's good points. It'd be a shame to miss them.
To me, the rape comment, is exactly the same as saying that someone who breaks their arm shouldnt be allowed to wear a cast, they should just live with whatever deformity happens.
If people can prevent living with long term effects of being injured, they do.
Second. Before you go around judging something I dont believe you know much about (forgive me if I'm wrong.) Why dont you go help the rape victims that want an abortion?
Go drive them to and pay for every hospital and doctor visit. Pay for the time they miss work. Pay for everything they need to properly take care of themselves while being pregnant. Be at their house all the time, doing the things they can no longer do while being pregnant. Pay for the hospital visit when the child is born. Pay for the mother to get her body back, either through a trainer or re constructive surgery, so its like it never happened. Then find a home for the child. Droppping them at an adoption agency doesnt garuntee them a home in the slightest bit, look up the statistics. Actually find it a home, or take it yourself.
Not willing to? Then dont blame someone else who isnt. Until you're willing to do all that, dont talk about taking away someones right to choose.
(by the way I've barely touched on all the things that would really be required to take full and total care of a pregnant mother)
If it sounds like I'm being very agressive I'm sorry. I'm trying not to be, but that just hit a raw nerve with me. Well, my whole point with that comment was that the kid shouldn't have to pay for it. I can see why someone would choose that, but honestly I think it's just cold to kill him/her. I heard the whole argument that the fertilized egg is just a plastocite with no brain activity, but unless we know for a fact that it has no soul yet, why risk it just so someone would have to live with the reminder? I realize it hurts the mother, but unless it would kill them I don't think that killing an unborn child is worth risking an abortion. Essentially it just doesn't feel or sound like the right thing to do and it kind of scares me that people choose this. I'm not trying to be cold. It's just the opposite, actually.
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Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:41 pm
Prince Darialan Love SterlingRevolver Prince Darialan Love I'm against abortion. I don't think there is a way to tell a soul has entered at conception or not and it's best not to fool around with that if we don't know. I'm torn on whether it is a good idea to let people have a right to choose it. On one hand I believe it's murder and knowing some people have a great amount of regret later. The other hand is that the child never experienced life, if this was done in time. I sympathize with people that are raped and get pregnant due to it, but it's not the child's fault it was born. Should the mother have to be reminded of being raped? No, of course not. Should she have to go through the pregnancy, reminding her of the trauma? No. That's because she should not have been raped, but unfortunately they were. Many people are hurt everyday and they have to live with injuries, temporary or not. It's just the way things go. There's the option of adoption, too. Another issue is "Will the pregnancy kill the mother?" If that's a good possibility, then I do think it's ok to choose one or the other. One can kill in self defense after all. "What if we know the child will be born with some lifelong defects." Admittedly life isn't fair. But those children have the right to find happiness where they can despite their challenges, so I don't think it's ok, if they're going to have problems all their life. Life is life. Life has it's good points. It'd be a shame to miss them.
To me, the rape comment, is exactly the same as saying that someone who breaks their arm shouldnt be allowed to wear a cast, they should just live with whatever deformity happens.
If people can prevent living with long term effects of being injured, they do.
Second. Before you go around judging something I dont believe you know much about (forgive me if I'm wrong.) Why dont you go help the rape victims that want an abortion?
Go drive them to and pay for every hospital and doctor visit. Pay for the time they miss work. Pay for everything they need to properly take care of themselves while being pregnant. Be at their house all the time, doing the things they can no longer do while being pregnant. Pay for the hospital visit when the child is born. Pay for the mother to get her body back, either through a trainer or re constructive surgery, so its like it never happened. Then find a home for the child. Droppping them at an adoption agency doesnt garuntee them a home in the slightest bit, look up the statistics. Actually find it a home, or take it yourself.
Not willing to? Then dont blame someone else who isnt. Until you're willing to do all that, dont talk about taking away someones right to choose.
(by the way I've barely touched on all the things that would really be required to take full and total care of a pregnant mother)
If it sounds like I'm being very agressive I'm sorry. I'm trying not to be, but that just hit a raw nerve with me. Well, my whole point with that comment was that the kid shouldn't have to pay for it. I can see why someone would choose that, but honestly I think it's just cold to kill him/her. I heard the whole argument that the fertilized egg is just a plastocite with no brain activity, but unless we know for a fact that it has no soul yet, why risk it just so someone would have to live with the reminder? I realize it hurts the mother, but unless it would kill them I don't think that killing an unborn child is worth risking an abortion. Essentially it just doesn't feel or sound like the right thing to do and it kind of scares me that people choose this. I'm not trying to be cold. It's just the opposite, actually.
If you choose to play on the safe side of the whole "when it has a soul" debate, thats okay. What bothered me was you saying you are not wanting others to be able to make the choice on their own. You dont know yourself, and you understand very little of the things you judge on, so I dont feel like you have any right to tell another they have to listen to how you feel.
Personally, the whole soul thing, I cant imagine God would really put a soul into just a lump of cells, that would kinda be like saying theres a soul in a lump of cancer.
But thats my personal opinion. You can feel however you need to be comfortable with yourself and your life. You have that right! As everyone should.
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Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:14 am
About the rape part of Darialan's comment, Revolver, I interpreted it differently. You compared it to a person breaking their arm and not being permitted to tend to the injury, but the child should not be seen as an injury. No living thing should ever be considered an injury, a mistake, etc. Unintended, maybe, but who's to say the child murdered within the mother's womb wouldn't grow up to be something great? That child, unwanted by the unwilling mother, would never have the chance to prove himself once aborted.
I interpreted that comment as exactly what I believe abortion is. On the broken arm metaphor; it's more like breaking your fingers to match. The injury, other than physical injuries received during a struggle, would mostly be emotional and perhaps mental. Those definitely need to be tended to, as do the physical injuries received during the struggle.
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Lord Alucard Ere Casanova
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Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:46 pm
Yes but if you read his post all the way through, he himself compares the embryo to an injury.
He says the mother shouldnt have been raped, but she was. And that many people are hurt all the time and must live with the injury, temporary or not.
the broken arm thing was simply responding to that.
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Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:59 pm
SterlingRevolver Yes but if you read his post all the way through, he himself compares the embryo to an injury.
He says the mother shouldnt have been raped, but she was. And that many people are hurt all the time and must live with the injury, temporary or not.
the broken arm thing was simply responding to that. I did read the entire post, I just didn't focus on that aspect of it. However, I see his point there as well. My Pop having been in the Navy received a leg injury which, although treated quickly and properly, he still suffers from over 30 years later. He is now 75 years old and must take special care of his leg. Perhaps this is what Darialan meant, perhaps not, regardless I still say no child no matter how he or she came to exist should be murdered for not having been created in an ideal situation.
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Lord Alucard Ere Casanova
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Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:58 pm
I myself take a cautious approach to the abortion issue...
Do I believe it is right? I would have to say MOSTLY No...
I do believe there is some instances where abortion is alright to be considered... such as rape and consideration of the health of the mother... and even in those cases, I feel that there should be some intense counseling before the decision is finalized... and I feel that abortion should be restricted to the first trimester (except in life threatening cases) before the fetus has established substantial brain activity.
I believe that the soul enters a body when the brain becomes active and the baby becomes responsive to external stimuli... I think that is when the fetus becomes a person, but it is hard to know exactly when that point is...
I do not think that women who consensually have sex and accidentally get pregnant should be allowed the abortion option. My opinion is that our society has become too lazy to accept the consequences of their actions, and I think it plays into this issue as well. I don't think sex is a matter that should be taken as lightly as it is taken, and I do not think that life is held in as great of esteem as it should be...
I know women on so many sides of this issue. One who accidentally got pregnant and decided to abort, a couple of women who were raped and kept their children, one who was raped and terminated a pregnancy, one woman who accidentally conceived and allowed her baby to be adopted, and several other cases: and it amazes me that not a single woman who kept their child when it would have made their life so much more uncomplicated regret it. Out of all the women I know who proceeded with abortion, I only know one who feels that in the end it was the right choice, and it isn't the woman who was raped either... My experience with these women just reinforce for me, the importance of counsel for any woman considering abortion, no matter the circumstances.
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