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rmcdra
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:59 am


A few years ago, I was web browsing and came across a "Christian Anime Forum". What I found interesting was there list of "banned anime topics" and the one anime I recall being on that list was "Neon Genesis Evangelion" because of "anti-Christian themes". I guess being the heretic that I am I don't see how this anime could be considered anti-Christian. Could someone explain to me how one could see it as such? Personally I see it as a modern interpretation of the Christ story.

So discuss Evangelion:
Pro-Christian, Anti-Christian, or non-relevant?
Christian/Jewish symbolism noticed?
What do you like/hate about the series?
Any other points of discussion regarding this series you'd like to bring up?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:56 am


LOL

I would say that it is anti Christian in the same ways D&D was...

...but I did have a discussion like this with another friend of mine...

Some Christians will say that anything that has elements that resemble Christian symbolism is by default mocking Christianity... I think that is what is going on here. Those people do not realize that every symbol Christians have was claimed by other religions before them. Most of them will refuse to be 'enlightened' to the error of their ways anyway, feeling that they are somehow pleasing God by creating a holy war out of their misguided adulation of 2 dimensional shapes.

The cross even, was not originally a Christian symbol, it belonged initially to Ancient Sumeria. The fish as it is understood in Christian terms is unique in the way it is presented, but the early Christians took their idea for the acrostic from other religions of the day.. Any symbol we have can be linked to a counterpart in anther religion. Maybe the Muslims and the Jews have it right when they refuse to use visual symbols to represent God.

So anyway, most anime take symbolism and snatches of storyline from religions as a template for the story they are going to tell through animation. It is a proven method in my opinion, because obviously, the stories told between different myths and religions are epic, as they haven't been forgotten throughout this whole time. It isn't anything personal, or any kind of attack, it is more like an artist sitting done to paint a picture of something that already exists. It won't be the same, and in the end, it might not even look like the original subject, but they used the original subject as their inspiration none-the-less. Depending on the artist, you will still see varying degrees of parallels between where they got their inspiration from and what is translated through their medium.

So, no, I don't believe Evangelion is anti Christian in the slightest.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:47 am


Eltanin Sadachbia
LOL

I would say that it is anti Christian in the same ways D&D was...

...but I did have a discussion like this with another friend of mine...

Some Christians will say that anything that has elements that resemble Christian symbolism is by default mocking Christianity... I think that is what is going on here. Those people do not realize that every symbol Christians have was claimed by other religions before them. Most of them will refuse to be 'enlightened' to the error of their ways anyway, feeling that they are somehow pleasing God by creating a holy war out of their misguided adulation of 2 dimensional shapes.

The cross even, was not originally a Christian symbol, it belonged initially to Ancient Sumeria. The fish as it is understood in Christian terms is unique in the way it is presented, but the early Christians took their idea for the acrostic from other religions of the day.. Any symbol we have can be linked to a counterpart in anther religion. Maybe the Muslims and the Jews have it right when they refuse to use visual symbols to represent God.

So anyway, most anime take symbolism and snatches of storyline from religions as a template for the story they are going to tell through animation. It is a proven method in my opinion, because obviously, the stories told between different myths and religions are epic, as they haven't been forgotten throughout this whole time. It isn't anything personal, or any kind of attack, it is more like an artist sitting done to paint a picture of something that already exists. It won't be the same, and in the end, it might not even look like the original subject, but they used the original subject as their inspiration none-the-less. Depending on the artist, you will still see varying degrees of parallels between where they got their inspiration from and what is translated through their medium.

So, no, I don't believe Evangelion is anti Christian in the slightest.

I think so too. I went on a google search on this topic and the common response was that "it twists and perverse the message of Christianity by using Christian symbolism in an unholy way." rolleyes I still maintain that Shinji is a modern interpretation of Christ personally. stare

Yeah, no symbol is unique to any religion. It's a primarily a modern idea that religions have to have unique or "flagship" symbol to it. The oldest used symbol of Christianity is the fish and there are other meanings besides the "alpha" to it that are uniquely Christian associated with it that are now mostly lost. The upside down cross is actually the Cross of St. Peter and regarded as a very holy symbol in Christianity yet you have Christians and non-Christians alike going on about how it's a Satanic symbol. The pentagram was another symbol used in Christianity to represent the five wounds of Christ and used as a way to visually explain the Trinity. Yet again you have Christians and non-Christians alike claiming that it's an anti-Christian symbol. *sigh*

From what I understand the creator of NGE was going through a major depression at the time of making the series and was studying the Kabbalah and Christianity as a coping tool. Much of this ends up showing up artistically in the series because he was also trying to use this series to cope with his depression and work on a very limited budget (this is part of the reason why the animation quality goes down toward the end, he was running out of money for the animation budget).

But yeah I agree with you, it is not anti-Christian.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:28 am


I think the main thing is the villains used. I watched all the Neon Genesis Evangelion shows, at least the first ones (I was told there's more, but I haven't found them). I loved it, personally. The ending was horribly thought out, I swear some of it wasn't even anime drawing. It was a rapid slideshow of random and irrelevant things with a voiceover explaining the plot line. It was almost like someone removed the anime that was supposed to be there and replaced the images with other things while keeping the sound the same. Anyways....

Angels are the main villains in this anime, bent on destroying everything. The cross is used multiple times, though it was over a year ago that I watched it and allot happened since then so I'm afraid I can't give an example. Adam and Eve are also mentioned at several points in the Anime.

I am not easily offended, so I don't mind all that nor the ridiculous amount of blood and gore (I'm a typical guy, I play games like that), but Christians who try to avoid anything non-Christian or anti-Christian would not appreciate the plot, moral, or point of Neon Genesis.

Considering how strict and how easily offended some Christians are, I can easily see why they would call that anime either simply offensive or anti-Christian. While much of what's in there could be excused as not necessarily Christian based, there is enough of it that saying Christianity had no influence over that anime whatsoever is really hard to believe.

Personally, if my wife had a stronger stomach and didn't mind, I'd watch it again. Mostly the blood and gore would get her, I think. As I said, I loved that anime with the exception of the last episode which was extremely disappointing... and I'll stop there before I rant again.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 5:44 am


Well Christianity did play a major roll for a template of major parts of the plotline, but so did Zoarosterianism, and Budhism if memory serves correctly. It wasn't meant as being anti or pro any religion though. I remember watching a commentary (I think on my movies, I'll have to check), and the director and writer (I think the writer only actually directed one of the last episodes) were saying how they tried to take epic parts of popular mythology and create a totally new, unrelated story from those parts. They got immediate heat from the Christian community when it hit the states.

The writer wanted to convey his philosophy of the 'self' though, and honestly, it's a philosophy that I believe. I wrote the basic concept in my journal when I was about 13. LOL

The anime itself is very well done considering the budget. The setting and plot allow for allot of frame recycling without it getting painfully obvious (unlike He-Man rolleyes ), You're so busy trying to keep up with what's happening and catching the subtle implications, that you don't necessarily care that you have already seen this scene between Gendo and Ritsuko about a hundred times. And of course, any mechanime has the perfect excuse to recycle their scenes... Mechs! blaugh

By the last 2 episodes, they were out of money, so they did put together a crude high speed slideshow. It wasn't the most appealing piece of art, but if you can make it past the busyness and focus on the point the characters are trying to make to the conclusions they draw, you get to the heart of what the writer was trying to convey through the series. It's really pretty deep.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:56 am


You just opened a can of worms! Like pure epic fandom kind of worms! Mwahaha! Well, I do love that show. heart

I think the overtones are quite fascinating, like how Gendo has the tree of Sephiroth as a mural in his office.

On an interesting note, in 2005 my church was working as diligently as they always had to convert people, including me. They had heard of Evangelion before, but when it came up in discussion with me, they said they wanted to better understand what atheists were drawn to in regards to religion. So it became a church project to watch the entire series with comments and discussion to follow thereafter. It was pure epicness! They were intrigued by it, and dissected the contents how they saw them, and made their own determination in regards to how the science and big robots were the intruments that drew people's attention away from the Christian meanings behind the symbols in the series. They thought it was the world's way of insinuating that these symbols had something to do with things other than God, as if to somehow invalidate God's actual involvement. But it was still really cool that they watched it all. I mean, at least they bothered to watch the whole series before contributing their feedback.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:01 pm


Well I also like how the angels take on all sorts of radical forms. I've heard many people say they don't look anything like angels. When I then ask, "Okay, so what's an angel look like?" And they give me the typical beautiful, flowing white wings routine, and then I start looking up angels in the Bible, and well... the angels in the Bible don't match the ones in Evangelion per say, but they all don't fit into the elegant, beautiful white-winged category either. I think it points out how often angels took on different forms and sometimes to perform very specific tasks, as is shown throughout Evangelion. So I think the message in that regard is reasonable.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:43 pm


Yeah, I do think it's funny that so many Christians have the happy, fun, fluffy idea of angels in their heads. I don't think that there is one account where an angel appearing in their true guise is happy, fun, fluffy. They are always terrible, and awesome, and fear-inspiring. They have heads of beasts (sometimes multiple heads), and bodies of men and beasts. They are sometimes described to be more like birds, or elementals. When there is an account of a man actually physically meeting one in their true guise, that man is normally said to be struck with fear so profound that they fall as if dead....

Many angels are charged with being God's harbingers of destruction, or are fearsome soldiers, or keep the winds of the Earth, or keep charge of the stars, or invisibly keep silent watch over the proceedings of mankind (this last class are said to be the ones who fell for the desire to cohabit with women).

Doesn't sound happy, fun, fluffy to me. stare

Evangelion is probably closer to the truth.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:43 pm


Angels are ******** scary. In the OT usually when someone met an angel some horrible atrocity occurred. King David's meetings with angels in II Samuel comes to mind here.

Yeah I think I would crap my pants if I met an angel described in the OT.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:08 pm


Splendid Sailor Venus
Well I also like how the angels take on all sorts of radical forms. I've heard many people say they don't look anything like angels. When I then ask, "Okay, so what's an angel look like?" And they give me the typical beautiful, flowing white wings routine, and then I start looking up angels in the Bible, and well... the angels in the Bible don't match the ones in Evangelion per say, but they all don't fit into the elegant, beautiful white-winged category either. I think it points out how often angels took on different forms and sometimes to perform very specific tasks, as is shown throughout Evangelion. So I think the message in that regard is reasonable.
That's Renascence artists for you. Artistic liberties all the way. So much that the liberties have become the standard. Here's a seraphim close to descriptions

And remember those buggers had flaming swords and trumpets that brought plagues. Yep those things are so cute XD

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:17 pm


Samuel: "You're scrawnier than I pictured."
Castiel: "This is a vessel. My true form is approxiamately the size of your Chrysler building.
-Supernatural

That came to my mind when you talked about what an angel looked like.

Anyways, my dad pretty much had to get disgusted when he saw the use of the cross in one episode.

I personally don't think there's anything wrong with the series. The cross, even though it's being used as Christian symbolism, was actually just a way of executing criminals in those days. Willow, if you've ever seen that movie, used the story of Moses. All in all the use of these various symbols are nothing more than a means to which to tell the story and come out with a look into various things inside the minds and souls of each of the characters. Using these to tell a story wouldn't be desecrating the holy symbols, since nothing is truly that original anymore. Everyone uses already existing elements from history and religion to create their art. I think if it's used for the good, then it shouldn't be a problem.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:34 am


On the topic of an angel's appearance, I don't believe they have a "true form" that we can comprehend. I've always imagined their form when they are not taking a form for us to be simply light, probably in a spherical shape like a bubble. On a non-physical realm of existence, what purpose does a form serve? I also think it is because they have no form that they can take any form.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:09 pm


Lord Kilo Von Mortenson
On the topic of an angel's appearance, I don't believe they have a "true form" that we can comprehend. I've always imagined their form when they are not taking a form for us to be simply light, probably in a spherical shape like a bubble. On a non-physical realm of existence, what purpose does a form serve? I also think it is because they have no form that they can take any form.
I don't mean to be mean, but you think angels are like sentient play-do of light? I never really thought of it as such, in fact I have never thought of angels ever really being more than God's servents. So, I guess a form isn't needed... I just thought it was a strange Idea...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:36 pm


Southern_cross_nemesis
I don't mean to be mean, but you think angels are like sentient play-do of light? I never really thought of it as such, in fact I have never thought of angels ever really being more than God's servents. So, I guess a form isn't needed... I just thought it was a strange Idea...

Perhaps I think to much, but essentially yes. I never said they do not serve God, however the service to God gives another reason for the ability to take various shapes. If God desires that one inflicts fear in a human a frightening form may be necessary, whereas when giving comfort a more gentle form would be better. Much like how we change expressions to fit a situation, appearing calm and gentle when someone needs comforting and perhaps scowling and glaring when we need/want to act tough.

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