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 Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:46 am
So who is Jesus Christ? What do you think, and not just the stereotypical answer. What does he offer and why is it so radical and offensive that a band of 120 followers exploded and were persecuted, killed, crucified, stoned, and told millions of people within years of jesus's death?
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Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:32 am
I would say that many governments (including the Romans) used religion as a coral to control their populations.Anything new, and not quite understood would be a potential means to upset that balance of control.
There are several instances in history where religion was a means used to single out a person as well, and then anyone that was in collaboration with the same religion was but a victim to be made and example of (a good example is the Book of Esther).
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Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:36 am
Eltanin Sadachbia I would say that many governments (including the Romans) used religion as a coral to control their populations.Anything new, and not quite understood would be a potential means to upset that balance of control. There are several instances in history where religion was a means used to single out a person as well, and then anyone that was in collaboration with the same religion was but a victim to be made and example of (a good example is the Book of Esther). True, though the first century church was a group of nobodies, the government outlawed them and crucified them, they were hunted down, torn limb from limb in the collesium, and killed for public entertainment. What was it about this jesus that made them do it?
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Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:54 am
Well, Rome was a place very much like the US today. People were either successful or they were impoverished. Due to Rome's concern with expanding it's borders to the whole of Eurasia and Africa, the only other life besides the caste you were given tended to be a life as a soldier, and many times even that was dependent on your social class.
Most people's cultural identities and spiritual backgrounds had been assimilated and diluted into the Roman pantheon, with the exception of the Hebraic God. Because the Israelite's belief was so tenacious it could not be extinguished or properly assimilated by the Roman Government, they were allowed a concession to keep them under control...
...I think the attitude that created these early martyrs that we so admire was a product of all of this, and we are beginning to see it again in this day and age...
The hopelessness and lack of control of our situations lead us to look for hope and assurance that things will be better, plus it leads us to value our own lives less. The mindset of a "soldier society" bred from wars and violence of the day leads us to the conclusion that there are things that are more important than our own lives. I also think that the desire to be a part of a cultural phenomenon that precedes more than one or two generations is a desire that people are not fully aware of; I think it would stem to the idea that the older a tradition, the more validated it is...
I think the martyrs of the day considered themselves soldiers of a God Who had persevered in the hearts and minds of His followers, when other beliefs had been trampled by the conquering boots of the Romans. The fact that this God was willing to accept them and offer them a place by His side after they died, a place much preferable to what they had in life. Jesus, was of course the messenger to them, showing them the Way to God, and His example through deed and the testimony of his disciples and apostles were enough to seal the deal to the new religion.
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Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:11 pm
Eltanin Sadachbia Well, Rome was a place very much like the US today. People were either successful or they were impoverished. Due to Rome's concern with expanding it's borders to the whole of Eurasia and Africa, the only other life besides the caste you were given tended to be a life as a soldier, and many times even that was dependent on your social class. Most people's cultural identities and spiritual backgrounds had been assimilated and diluted into the Roman pantheon, with the exception of the Hebraic God. Because the Israelite's belief was so tenacious it could not be extinguished or properly assimilated by the Roman Government, they were allowed a concession to keep them under control... ...I think the attitude that created these early martyrs that we so admire was a product of all of this, and we are beginning to see it again in this day and age... The hopelessness and lack of control of our situations lead us to look for hope and assurance that things will be better, plus it leads us to value our own lives less. The mindset of a "soldier society" bred from wars and violence of the day leads us to the conclusion that there are things that are more important than our own lives. I also think that the desire to be a part of a cultural phenomenon that precedes more than one or two generations is a desire that people are not fully aware of; I think it would stem to the idea that the older a tradition, the more validated it is... I think the martyrs of the day considered themselves soldiers of a God Who had persevered in the hearts and minds of His followers, when other beliefs had been trampled by the conquering boots of the Romans. The fact that this God was willing to accept them and offer them a place by His side after they died, a place much preferable to what they had in life. Jesus, was of course the messenger to them, showing them the Way to God, and His example through deed and the testimony of his disciples and apostles were enough to seal the deal to the new religion. From a historical point of view, that's pretty spot on, thought the thing is it kinda goes even deeper than a sociological phenomenon, It's a soul changing experience, and a personal relationship, and there are the other unexplained aspects, like the raising of the dead, healing of the blind, curing of diseases, cured addiction, changed lives, and supernatural occurances like speaking other languages that have never been learned and people doing things beyond their own means. I've heard and seen some of it even today, but what do you think about that? What could even cause such things to occur, and if they were just like us, what does it mean?
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Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:26 pm
What does it mean?
You mean besides the obvious "God is Real"... I mean, that is what we Christians interpret...
blaugh For some reason I just thought of the double rainbow dude... "What does it MEAN! It's so BeaUTIful!" rofl
But seriously, are you asking about what scientific processes could be used to explain these phenomenon?
I understand the deeper personal experience that is involved in such behavior, but I also realize that people's experiences are different in nature and intensity. A person with a strong experience isn't always the person who is most willing to sacrifice for their experience. It all really boils down to an individual.
We can generalize behavior, miracles, and experiences with science, philosophy, and psychology, but in the end, there will be elements that we cannot explain. It doesn't mean that it isn't intriguing to try.
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Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:16 pm
I for some reason identify with Jesus as more of a teacher. I mean, I get the whole trinity-died-for-our-sins though, but when I pray, I always pray to God. People who pray to Jesus make me uncomfortable sometimes because, I dunno, it seems like worshipping a man to me. Which I get it's not, but it's this weird hang up I have.
To me Jesus is a really wise guy who said a lot of awesome stuff and should be learned from. The dying for our sins thing is awesome too, and I'm appreciative of that, but for some reason that's just not a huge factor in my relationship with God or my central focus. I guess I see him as more of the avenue that allows me to have a relationship with God in the first place.
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:49 pm
Blood_Testimony Eltanin Sadachbia I would say that many governments (including the Romans) used religion as a coral to control their populations.Anything new, and not quite understood would be a potential means to upset that balance of control. There are several instances in history where religion was a means used to single out a person as well, and then anyone that was in collaboration with the same religion was but a victim to be made and example of (a good example is the Book of Esther). True, though the first century church was a group of nobodies, the government outlawed them and crucified them, they were hunted down, torn limb from limb in the collesium, and killed for public entertainment. What was it about this jesus that made them do it? I think it may have been pre-emptive retaliation. For whereas most could be swayed in money or politics, here you had a faith growing in number that put more emphasis on 'God first'. And I think after all that Jesus did it probably kept a lot of people on their toes. I'm sure even a gut reaction to sprouting churches at the time may have been, "Hey, we'd better do something about them before they start acting like Jesus and getting everyone's attention like he did." That on top of the fact that the message was one of love and forgiveness, which was lacking geographically, it carried more than a certain appeal. It's just like the wild weeds in your yard... if you don't cut them down quickly, soon they will spread, and overtake the land. Not comparing Jesus of Christians to weeds per say, just saying I'm sure that's how they looked upon the influence of Christ in their people.
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:15 pm
Eltanin Sadachbia What does it mean? You mean besides the obvious "God is Real"... I mean, that is what we Christians interpret... blaugh For some reason I just thought of the double rainbow dude... "What does it MEAN! It's so BeaUTIful!" rofl But seriously, are you asking about what scientific processes could be used to explain these phenomenon? I understand the deeper personal experience that is involved in such behavior, but I also realize that people's experiences are different in nature and intensity. A person with a strong experience isn't always the person who is most willing to sacrifice for their experience. It all really boils down to an individual. We can generalize behavior, miracles, and experiences with science, philosophy, and psychology, but in the end, there will be elements that we cannot explain. It doesn't mean that it isn't intriguing to try. more of if they just heard the simple things like the book of john, and they flipped the world upside down like never before in human history, and they were a bunch of illiterate schmoos, then what does it mean for the future of mankind if the same thing is here today and we have all the things we do now, shouldn't we freakout about it, or de we just not believe it like they believed it.
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:20 pm
Splendid Sailor Venus Blood_Testimony Eltanin Sadachbia I would say that many governments (including the Romans) used religion as a coral to control their populations.Anything new, and not quite understood would be a potential means to upset that balance of control. There are several instances in history where religion was a means used to single out a person as well, and then anyone that was in collaboration with the same religion was but a victim to be made and example of (a good example is the Book of Esther). True, though the first century church was a group of nobodies, the government outlawed them and crucified them, they were hunted down, torn limb from limb in the collesium, and killed for public entertainment. What was it about this jesus that made them do it? I think it may have been pre-emptive retaliation. For whereas most could be swayed in money or politics, here you had a faith growing in number that put more emphasis on 'God first'. And I think after all that Jesus did it probably kept a lot of people on their toes. I'm sure even a gut reaction to sprouting churches at the time may have been, "Hey, we'd better do something about them before they start acting like Jesus and getting everyone's attention like he did." That on top of the fact that the message was one of love and forgiveness, which was lacking geographically, it carried more than a certain appeal. It's just like the wild weeds in your yard... if you don't cut them down quickly, soon they will spread, and overtake the land. Not comparing Jesus of Christians to weeds per say, just saying I'm sure that's how they looked upon the influence of Christ in their people. well yes for the romans and the people killing them, but what was it about jesus that made his followers do what they did, like the unnamed christian who when invited to one of Caesar's lavish parties gave up his life by crying out Jesus is Lord. what made them go and die like that, and made it catch on? it couldn't have just been oh love this and that. People haven't changed since then, they still act just the same, so what made it happen?
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:43 pm
Blood_Testimony Splendid Sailor Venus Blood_Testimony Eltanin Sadachbia I would say that many governments (including the Romans) used religion as a coral to control their populations.Anything new, and not quite understood would be a potential means to upset that balance of control. There are several instances in history where religion was a means used to single out a person as well, and then anyone that was in collaboration with the same religion was but a victim to be made and example of (a good example is the Book of Esther). True, though the first century church was a group of nobodies, the government outlawed them and crucified them, they were hunted down, torn limb from limb in the collesium, and killed for public entertainment. What was it about this jesus that made them do it? I think it may have been pre-emptive retaliation. For whereas most could be swayed in money or politics, here you had a faith growing in number that put more emphasis on 'God first'. And I think after all that Jesus did it probably kept a lot of people on their toes. I'm sure even a gut reaction to sprouting churches at the time may have been, "Hey, we'd better do something about them before they start acting like Jesus and getting everyone's attention like he did." That on top of the fact that the message was one of love and forgiveness, which was lacking geographically, it carried more than a certain appeal. It's just like the wild weeds in your yard... if you don't cut them down quickly, soon they will spread, and overtake the land. Not comparing Jesus of Christians to weeds per say, just saying I'm sure that's how they looked upon the influence of Christ in their people. well yes for the romans and the people killing them, but what was it about jesus that made his followers do what they did, like the unnamed christian who when invited to one of Caesar's lavish parties gave up his life by crying out Jesus is Lord. what made them go and die like that, and made it catch on? it couldn't have just been oh love this and that. People haven't changed since then, they still act just the same, so what made it happen? My knowledge on this matter is left at the door of curiosity. I mean, I've heard a lot about the holy spirit in people, and the things it makes them do. And I've seen how it affects people. Very powerful to say the least. Some who were previously unbelievers will be all about spreading it like its news fresh off the press. Those handful of my friends that have converted in this way can be pretty filled up with it sometimes, along with those who are veteran believers. When they come up me telling me all about what the holy spirit has done for them, my reactions is often one of *smile* "I can tell." But aside from observance, my understanding is limited. I have not had such an experience myself. But it makes sense to me. I mean, taking God as someone that powerful with such a force. If one is filled up with that, I can only imagine it would have such an effect. Now I have tried to consider the psychological factors that may be involved. But I can't fully exclude God on the merits of psychology, because if God is real, then psychology is merely instrumentation. But I may have averted the question. Let me see if I can answer that. Why did they do it? Well, aside from the influence of the holy spirit as a factor, it would seem they cast aside their fears and worldly interests to proclaim what they knew to be true. And perhaps they were so filled up with it that all they wanted to do was say so. The higher purpose could be to show others through them the power of God's word and will. I can definitely see purpose to this at any rate.
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Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:47 pm
Blood_Testimony Eltanin Sadachbia Blood_Testimony You look at it from a stunningly logical perspective, and that's quite impressive! Thing is though I can't believe literal interpretation is a rececnt phenomenon just given the history of christianity. It started out as a bunch of predominantly illiterate jews memorizing stories and traditions, scripture and putting them in their hearts, and I know they believed them as they were told. If it wasn't historical and they didn't believe it as it was told, i can't see them going out and flipping the world upside down, let alone dying for their cause. You can take the disciples for one, who they started out not getting a thing jesus told them, then he died, and they got the spirit, and then doubting peter rose up the church and died i believe on a cross, and they changed drastically from a bunch of fishermen. The idea of we allways have to interpret makes sense, but i'll have to say more later. I wouldn't attribute the longevity of Judaism to "a bunch of predominantly illiterate Jews"... It's kinda short changing their extremely strict efforts of religious observation. There was a whole tribe of Israelites set aside and devoted to keeping the practice pure, and interpreting the laws for the "illiterate" among them. Even then though, it was considered important for children to have some degree of education and literacy. In fact, Judaism is a product of one of the more education promoting societies of early civilization, and directly descended from the ancient religions of Sumeria, THE earliest civilization of proven knowledge.. You also don't seem to understand that Judaism was the definition of their nationality. Their religion is what made them a nation. The Jews would die for what they believed because it was who they were, and Christianity is a direct product of that religious structure... Christianity is the child of Judaism, and as such, it would be logical that it would inspire the same fervor exhibited in the carry-over attitudes from its initial Jewish converts... Lol I must have miscommunicated in some way, i wasn't adressing the majority of the jews as being illiterate, i'm referring to the initial characters in the gospels and in the early day church. The tribe of levi, the scribes and keepers of the law are a different story entirely, but one thing I know they have different than we do, is how they use their memory, they'd render large quantities of scripture into their heads, memorizing the entire old testament at times, and easily what they were told in the stories that circulated in the gospels. They were multilingual or at least many people were back in that day, for example matthew (levi) probably knew greek, latin, arameic, and hebrew (pardon my spelling) because he was a tax collector, but the point was that they memorized it and put it word for word into their heads and used that. So take what you will from it. Oh... redface Understood now. LOL I see what you are saying. I am a bit medicated right now, so I figure my understanding is pretty narrow right now. Anyway, I do agree with Rob on the fact that the Jews didn't have to take the stories within their Scriptures literally for them to have such deep meaning to them. Honestly, I don't believe literal history is as important as the beliefs I am taught through stories I don't believe are literal to a 'T'... I would sacrifice (and have[not as much as others albeit]) for the beliefs I have acquired from the Bible. If it came down to it, and someone were to persecute me because of my take on a historical fact, I would just be like, "Eh, whatever dude." But you try and take away my ability to believe what I do, and you will have a mad momma tiger on your butt... That's just how I feel though....
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Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:05 pm
Eltanin Sadachbia Blood_Testimony Eltanin Sadachbia Blood_Testimony You look at it from a stunningly logical perspective, and that's quite impressive! Thing is though I can't believe literal interpretation is a rececnt phenomenon just given the history of christianity. It started out as a bunch of predominantly illiterate jews memorizing stories and traditions, scripture and putting them in their hearts, and I know they believed them as they were told. If it wasn't historical and they didn't believe it as it was told, i can't see them going out and flipping the world upside down, let alone dying for their cause. You can take the disciples for one, who they started out not getting a thing jesus told them, then he died, and they got the spirit, and then doubting peter rose up the church and died i believe on a cross, and they changed drastically from a bunch of fishermen. The idea of we allways have to interpret makes sense, but i'll have to say more later. I wouldn't attribute the longevity of Judaism to "a bunch of predominantly illiterate Jews"... It's kinda short changing their extremely strict efforts of religious observation. There was a whole tribe of Israelites set aside and devoted to keeping the practice pure, and interpreting the laws for the "illiterate" among them. Even then though, it was considered important for children to have some degree of education and literacy. In fact, Judaism is a product of one of the more education promoting societies of early civilization, and directly descended from the ancient religions of Sumeria, THE earliest civilization of proven knowledge.. You also don't seem to understand that Judaism was the definition of their nationality. Their religion is what made them a nation. The Jews would die for what they believed because it was who they were, and Christianity is a direct product of that religious structure... Christianity is the child of Judaism, and as such, it would be logical that it would inspire the same fervor exhibited in the carry-over attitudes from its initial Jewish converts... Lol I must have miscommunicated in some way, i wasn't adressing the majority of the jews as being illiterate, i'm referring to the initial characters in the gospels and in the early day church. The tribe of levi, the scribes and keepers of the law are a different story entirely, but one thing I know they have different than we do, is how they use their memory, they'd render large quantities of scripture into their heads, memorizing the entire old testament at times, and easily what they were told in the stories that circulated in the gospels. They were multilingual or at least many people were back in that day, for example matthew (levi) probably knew greek, latin, arameic, and hebrew (pardon my spelling) because he was a tax collector, but the point was that they memorized it and put it word for word into their heads and used that. So take what you will from it. Oh... redface Understood now. LOL I see what you are saying. I am a bit medicated right now, so I figure my understanding is pretty narrow right now. Anyway, I do agree with Rob on the fact that the Jews didn't have to take the stories within their Scriptures literally for them to have such deep meaning to them. Honestly, I don't believe literal history is as important as the beliefs I am taught through stories I don't believe are literal to a 'T'... I would sacrifice (and have[not as much as others albeit]) for the beliefs I have acquired from the Bible. If it came down to it, and someone were to persecute me because of my take on a historical fact, I would just be like, "Eh, whatever dude." But you try and take away my ability to believe what I do, and you will have a mad momma tiger on your butt... That's just how I feel though.... So what do you think about the idea that scripture is god breathed and alive, yet still unchanging?
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Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:43 pm
I believe the Scriptures inspired by God, but not God breathed (except maybe the original Hebrew Torah- but I have studied the Torah Code- and even then there is a slight ratio of human error)
I believe that God gave messages to men to be handed down through generations, that were VERY important, but that importance isn't necessarily in the historical context, but in the Spiritual one.
I believe the Bible we have now has what lessons that are necessary for a relationship with God, but I believe that those lessons are written on our hearts, so in essence, I believe that a person can be a Christian without ever having heard of the Bible.
The Bible is a tool, but it is not the relationship, nor the faith.
edit: As to unchanging, I would say that the only thing that doesn't seem to change about the Bible is it's ability to uplift, inspire, encourage, and enlighten believers. The only thing I feel is truly unchanging is the God that we worship. wink
edit/take 2: When I say Christian yet never heard of the Bible, I mean a person can go to Heaven without ever having heard of Jesus or the Bible... If a person truly seeks God, they will find Him, even if they do not have a name to give to the Way, they believe that there is one, or they would not seek.
Jesus said He is the Way, and that Heaven is attainable if we believe in Him (as the Way- not as in know His name)... That is an error I find with many of today's sermons... i could go on, but I think I have made the point I was trying to.
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