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 Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 3:14 am
The Fae seem to have a lot of euphemisms for Christian figures, which I guess makes sense, considering their traditional dislike of Christianity. God is the White God, Jesus is the White Christ, the Virgin Mary is the Weeping Mother. Mab even identifies several archangels: the Prince of the Host (Michael), the Watchman (Uriel), the Demon Binder (Raphael) and the Trumpeter (Gabriel). Harry mentions the Prince of Darkness (obviously Lucifer) and even carried the Webweaver (Lasciel) around in his head for a while. The Abrahamic God is looking out for the Knights and His champions in the series - one of the short stories even shows Harry doing God's work, albeit unintentionally.
What bugs me about this, though, is Harry's assertion that there are lots of powers running around that aren't the Almighty, and the implication that the Abrahamic God is somehow set above all those other gods he mentions - Amerind divinity, Native American tribal gods, Hindu gods, even our friend Donar Vadderung. Even with the appearance of Uriel in the series, and Archangel Michael giving Sanya his Sword, many other faiths are represented: Mouse is a Buddhist temple guardian (Esmeralda refers to him as a "mountain ice demon from the Land of Dreams", obviously referring to Tibet) while Odin and Miss Gard play for Team Norse, and the whole of Faerie is amazingly pagan. Nonetheless, even though the Christian God has yet to reveal Himself beyond His messengers and a string of fortunate coincidences, He's considered the ultimate power in the series. It's a pretty common trend in Western fantasy, that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Moses is set over all the other gods of the world - Supernatural does it, Sandman did it, Lucifer subverted it. Why is it, do you think, that the Christian God has higher prominence in the series - and, indeed, in fantasy in general - than, say, the Jade Emperor or Odin or Ra?
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Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:02 pm
Two reasons I can think, the authors of all of these things are trying to not alienate their audience (who it seems are mostly only vaguly Christian since a lot of die hard Christians seem to think these sorts of shows are blashphy period) so they pay their dues to Christianity.
Second because demons and angels are primiarly a Christian thing. In order to have them one must have the god of Abraham and to put this god in any sort of postion other than that of supreme lord and master would be to violate the very tennants of that religion. So if they want to use demons and angels they have to disrespect the other relgions. Also in the same thread, none of those other relgions, to my knowledge, are so damn adamant about their god(s) being supreme as the Christian religion is.
I think Butcher does a good job combining all the different relgion. None of them are wholly correct, not even the Christian aspects, but they all have some truth to them. It makes for a rather interesting world. Super natural did it pretty well too although they went a lot further into making the god of Abraham all knowing/powerful etc.
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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:55 am
That makes sense to an extent, but why should Christian angels and demons be given more power over the Navajo Holy People and skinwalkers, or Norse valkyries and ice giants, or Zoroastrian Fravashi and ifrits? Given the proven existence of some of these beings and their presence in the novels, it seems merely apologism and provincialism to make the Abrahamic faiths the most correct ones. There are myriad creation myths - the Dineh crawling through the four worlds, Ymir's bones, Sofia falling from grace. Why should the Christian one be true? Each and every religion proclaims its god or pantheon as supreme, creators of the universe. Christianity is just the most popular one. The truth, in matters of theology, is simply the opinion that has survived.
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:08 am
At first when the books started taking that direction I was a bit dismayed. I agree in part with both of you. Mostly however with "What bugs me about this, though, is Harry's assertion that there are lots of powers running around that aren't the Almighty, and the implication that the Abrahamic God is somehow set above all those other gods he mentions..." I'm a tad worried about the direction its heading, but I think Jim will do a decent job anyway.
I don't really have much more to add to the disscussion unfortunatlly. I'm not the most eloquent person when it comes to things like this. But this subject has become quite intresting to me. My boyfriend and I are both reading the series at around the same pace. I'm not religious in any sense, and he however still holds on to his religious upbringing, I'm curious as to how we'll both react when these themes take more of a forefront.
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Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:45 am
Or it could be as simple as the White God is winning at the god game right now. Odin is low on the power scale from where he once was because his devotion has fallen off so far. The God of Abraham is the same one (vaguely at least) followed by Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. These three faiths make up the VAST majority of the the religious world. In-world, it's probably as simple as that.
While the White God might indeed be beyond all these things, and a incomprehensibly powerful being, his Judeo-Christian entities are then the most potent for the reason's I stated above.
And, finally, maybe Butcher wasn't comfortable enough with other religions to put them at the top of the pile, or, maybe he simply wanted to add them in like that.
While I certainly hope that the Christian thing never get's any more front and center then it already has, religion is a part of life for MANY people in the world, and it would be silly not to include it. I for one appreciate Michael for being the good, calm, working day Christian that he is. Nice to see in this slice of literature.
That's my take.
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Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:37 am
That's actually a pretty (ingenious) common explanation. If I recall correctly, there's a roleplaying game where the three Abrahamic faiths were created to bring more people to the worship of the God of the Covenant in order to shore up His power. It's also a pretty common motif that human belief shapes the universe. Isn't that what the Oblivion War is about?
Does that mean that if something like Voodoo or Buddhism replaced the Abrahamic faiths, the universe would shape itself around that? Loa standing guard around Michael's house, Devas granting Harry soulfire?
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Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:06 am
In theory, sure, I don't see why not. Would be an interesting story to read too. A world where some other religion won the fight for the heart's and minds of the majority of people.
There are a few games that work with those ideas. In Scion, there's a cult that started the worship of the God of Abraham to steal power from the old pantheon's and their titan foes and try to get rid of them. They actively recruit young Scion's and so they have prophet's, martyr's and holy men/women.
In the Old World of Darkness Mage series, human belief shaped the universe, as all human's had the potential to be mage's. The Oblivion War is from that I believe.
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Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:36 am
I never really thought too hard about the christian overtones in the Dresdenverse. I dont remember any instances of "The God" being exclusively represented as a figure of great power himself, or his pals being bigger, better, or badder than any other spiritual figure that is represented thus far - seeing as the beings such as the Skinwalker, Knights of the Blackened Denarius, He Who Walks Behind, etc - still exist. I think a lot more interaction is done between the main plot humans in general with christian-esque figureheads because, well, the Carpenter family as a whole - and Dresden himself always questioning his own spirituality - also influenced by people like Michael, Father Forthill, etc. It could also be a familiarity with the religions Jim Butcher has, like Sprainogre said, which is why Paganism is also very heavily influenced in the Faerie. You just cant be too worried about this thing.
Beep Boop iTry talking religion. *goes back to her no care ever hole*
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