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 Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 11:57 pm
Something that's been mulling over in my head for a couple days, but hasn't really gotten anywhere; perhaps you all can mull a little better than I can. sweatdrop
Essentially, this is another tactic for making character roles matter, as well as (ideally) a way to add some more potential for player skill to be relevant. It's easiest explained, I think, with an example.
Imagine if, when using Improbability Sphere, the Ring granted a 100% Reflection - but only for the user, and only for a split second (about as much time as it would take to Reflect one attack).
The idea first originated from Fleet Feet; imagine the whistle from the animation waking up your allies. Since the Ring provides a Willpower buff with Rage, I considered the possibility of simply having Willpower buffs grant you another attempt to resist a status, and it moved outward (to Reflection, Deflection, Armor, etc.) from there.
Improbability Sphere - 100% Reflection, per the example. We might could drop the rate, but that reduces the skill factor.
Pot Lid - 100% Deflection. The only reason we'd drop the rate on the Sphere's is to maintain balance with this one.
Teflon Spray - Right now, not sure; the ring doesn't serve one purpose. I still think Debuff Resistance would be the best use for it, in which case this would grant 100% Debuff Resistance for an instant.
My Density - Naturally, a massive Weight bonus. Too bad Knockback isn't more significant. Could also include some Armor, as the Ring.
Keen Aye - Massive Accuracy bonus, strictly limited to the next attack made within half-a-second or so.
Iron Will - As mentioned, I'd planned on having it allow you to re-attempt to resist Crowd Control; but as a self-only effect, that no longer seems reasonable. Other possibilities?
Healing Halo - Some kind of healing, naturally; but that hardly seems skill-based. If there's something more interactive (like absorbing the damage that would be dealt to you, or something), that would be preferable.
Ghost - Massive Dodge boost, of course. As always, Pot Lid's less-reliable cousin.
Divinity - Looks like a Stamina heal, but again I'd like something more interactive. Whatever works for the Halo could likely be tweaked a bit for this.
Coyote Spirit - No clue, honestly. What do you expect to happen when you summon a giant coyote?
Rock Armor - 100% Persistent Armor, I'd imagine. Sure this steps on Turtle's toes, but which of these doesn't? Turtle's duration would want to be extended to make them more distinct, but Turtle could use the boost anyhow. sweatdrop
Fleet Feet - Same issues as Coyote Spirit. Whether we choose to focus on Footspeed or the Willpower buff, it'll be based on Coyote Spirit's or Iron Will's, respectively (or both).
'Self Only' buffs like Turtle and Meat would be unaffected, neither of which would actually need an effect like this anyhow (Meat has healing, Turtle has... Being Turtle). I'm still undecided as to whether it should activate every time someone uses the Ring (just an ability with a 15-second Cooldown) or only when the buff actually replaces the active buff (simply making it the first half-second of the buff's duration). In fact, I'm still undecided as to whether this actually adds anything to the game; as much as I like the idea of saving up an Improbability Sphere until the boss launches their big attack, I'm not sure how well it would play. Addditionally, lag would be a hurdle; it's possible that there wouldn't be anywhere to balance these abilities for players with slow computers, while not overpowering them for players with fast machines... gonk
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Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:17 am
I've mused over something like this before.
Just to confirm: this is in addition to the current effects?
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Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:42 am
Intriguing idea. A split-second bonus to encourage the user to make a well-timed buff.
Keen: Guaranteed critical hit if you attack while the bonus is active
Ghost: Guaranteed dodge if attacked
Teflon: (Was going to say dodge, but that's still Ghost's turf) ... Uhm... Debuff reflection?
Halo: Absorbing damage would be cool, kinda like a pre-rebalance Turtle
Divinity: Convert damage to Stamina? Recovery = damage / (2 * Ring CL) or something like that.
Coyote: Random effects. Remember, it's all about the Luck of the Coyote.
Density: Attacking Animated are knocked back
Iron WIll: CC reflection?
Rock: Maybe not 100%... 75?
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Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:35 pm
I think I understand the idea (I'm afraid I'm rather slow at these type of things sweatdrop ), and I rather like it~
*Throws in a few pennies* Alternative ways of restricting the usage of bonuses along side the ones you've already considered;
-> Have RR4 of the buff made a compulsory 'requirement' before the bonus is made available to the player
-> n% chance of bonus actually working
-> Possibility of an unfortunate side effect. In example; 'My Density' might slow yourself/ your crew if you use the bonus too much, 'Ghost' might make it harder for your comrades to heal you.
->Needing to have achieved a certain Ghi-boost level.
(Obviously not all at once, that would be rather ridiculous).
Or if you'd want it to be more specialised/ unique for each player, you could say that each person only has the capability to learn the bonuses of 6 rings. They could complete certain quests in order to learn the 'technique' of boosting the ring, or just find a specific NPC assigned to teaching the bonus effect of a ring. (I'm sure Olivia would be quite willing to teach players an 'Iron Will' bonus on account of the fact that her cooking has not deterred her Willpower to live. )
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Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:27 pm
I actually did consider having it Rage-dependent; at least a bit. Even simply having the lower-Rage versions less effective would help quite a bit. While I like there being an option of certainty (the 100% Reflection, et. al.), I am a little concerned with the potential for abuse just by re-using the RR1 bonus. Offering progressively higher effects with Rage offers a little more room for balancing (Reflection could be 35%, 70%, 100%, while Deflection could be 40%, 80%, 100%, or the like) and helps to remove some of the potential for abuse. You'd still want to save up the buff for a time when it's most relevant, and - even better - you'd want to save up some Rage to guarantee it, as well.
One thing that's important is that they have the potential to be reliable, though; having it randomised makes the skill portion seem a lot less relevant, which is part of what this is aiming to bring. The game already does a poor job of accounting for player skill; having abilities that require timing, but have any significant chance of failing regardless, doesn't really seem to help much. sweatdrop
Thard, do you think that 100% Armor is potentially unbalanced, or are you just trying to make the abilities more distinct? I can't see how 100% Armor (you know, we could do Armor Pool with a size of 1, to guarantee it lasts only one attack - sorry, just thinking sweatdrop ) would really be as scary as 100% Reflection If it's the latter, though, I understand; the near-identical effects between them all kind of irk me, too... whee
EDIT: Yes, gataka; this would be in-addition-to. I don't know about current effects, because I think buffs need a bit of tweaking, yet; but it would be alongside their normal buff abilities... 3nodding
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Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:19 pm
Yeah, it wasn't necessarily because of balancing concerns, but more of the similarity. 100% Armor = Deflection.
To avoid R1 abuse... Success rate = 100 - (Ring's remaining duration)/900
This way, the closer the buff is to wearing off, the more likely it is to get the bonus effect.
I just had another thought too. Make the "Buff Bonus" only available if someone's using the related Ringset.
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Atrash the Squidmonger Vice Captain
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Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:20 am
It would be somewhat troublesome to balance, but this would definitely help encourage more role based sets. Reliability based on the buff duration might not be the best way to do it, as it would bring up the problem with buffing other people (someone suddenly throwing a useless rr1 buff on top of an rr4 buff will increase the duration that that buff type will exist, lowering the success rate of these special effects - even throwing an rr4 buff on top of an rr1 buff could do so, and who knows if the person prioritizes the buff's level or the special effect?). It does seem like it would work well together with Ringsets, but with the way those are now I wouldn't want it to be just when the ringset is in use. The concept of ringsets doesn't need the extra power that this would give them (since they aren't intended to push people away from doing freeform if they want), and the current ring balance makes them awkward to use even for the bonuses. Maybe instead, the probability of getting the buff bonus could be increased by how much you used the other rings in the ringset in the last [insert time period here - maybe a minute or five minutes]. The more ninja-y you are (the more shurikens you attack with, rather than Hack or something, the more attacks of Mantis you use, etc.), the more likely that using Ghost will grant you the guaranteed super dodge. The more pirate-y you act (using Slash or quicksanding your foes), the more likely that Keen Aye will give you the special crit. - Attacks would increase the probability one percent for every second of cooldown (of course, faster cooldown rings can be used more often in the time period, thus increasing the probability more). Crowd control and healing would probably act the same way, although they could be rebalanced some. Healing would only go into effect if you were actually healing someone else (just like how rage is calculated for them only if you actually heal). - Buffs would count for more, but would only count if you were improving buffs (that is, putting higher rage ranks, or putting the buff on someone who didn't have it). Ideally it would count for every person you improved the buff on (so buffing more people - doing more good - gives a bigger bonus). - Passive rings would raise the probability just by being worn. - All the rings would raise the probability just by being worn, but less than passive rings would. - The effects could be for more than just crew buffs, although it should be used sparingly as effects for other rings. I'd pick out: ------ Diagnose (Medic Set use). A crew wide debuff removal and short term stamina regen buff. ------ Something from the Athlete's ring set. I think the effects would be best if they had their own animation - even if it's just a bunch of words - so people could see it working and see when people really mastered it. It would also be handy if the probability of the effect would show up graphically (like, a glow around the ring slots of buffs - once the probability got moderately high, they'd start getting brighter as the probability went up). Some other possible special effects (but I'm not sure what would best fit with them): - Hate reduction. Maybe Ghost would work for this. You suddenly go invisible to enemies. Another possible spot could be Diagnose and the Medic ring set (as a sort of Geneva Convention don't-shoot-the-medic thing). Healers would love the aggro getting pushed off them now and then. - Luck bonus. A shortlived boost that would help increase gold gains and other rewards from whatever died that instant. It couldn't be too large, but people would like it anyway. - Faster ring cooldown (Coyote Spirit?). Hard to balance, though. - Possibility of Fear effects in all attacks for a short time period (because you've become so intimidating). Iron Will? - Possibility of Root effects on all attacks you make for a short time period. Sleep might also work, but... it's sort of meh. If the crowd control ones made AoE too powerful, it could limit it to just one - or some small number - of animated that could get the effect for each attack. - Damage increase for all attack rings. Quote: -> Possibility of an unfortunate side effect. In example; 'My Density' might slow yourself/ your crew if you use the bonus too much, 'Ghost' might make it harder for your comrades to heal you. This could be useful too to enforce the special effects as role building. Maybe (with half the chance of happening as the main effect - so if you're 100% guaranteed that you will get the good special effect, you have a 50% chance of getting this slightly negative side effect for a slightly longer duration): Ghost: You "dodge" healing. My Density: Your footspeed drops (I think it should mostly effect the person using it) or maybe you can Root yourself for a short time (too dense - got stuck in ground). Improbability Sphere: You "reflect" healing (which would be interesting - maybe beneficial at times) and buffs (you just don't get any buffs applied at the time). Armor/Deflection effects: Another place where footspeed loss could work, or stamina drain. Luck effects (if any): A "slump" in luck afterwards. Keen Aye: Dodge decrease?
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Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:10 am
Atrash the Squidmonger someone suddenly throwing a useless rr1 buff on top of an rr4 buff will increase the duration that that buff type will exist, lowering the success rate of these special effects
Oh, Atrash; I thought we knew better than this. gonk
An RR1 buff will have no effect on top of an RR4 buff; it won't increase the duration, and it won't go on 'underneath'. As always, lesser buffs have no effect whatsoever in the presence of greater ones.
----
Requiring a set is a bit more restrictive than I had originally considered, but it's certainly a possibility. It encourages the use of sets (which could certainly use some help), but beyond that I don't see it adding much to the gameplay. I think the majority of players would still avoid sets, as these bonuses don't necessarily encourage that set's 'class'. Most likely, it would just push the Ninja set into usability (carrying both Ghost and Divinity), while actually making the other sets (especially one-buff sets) relatively worse. Perhaps if we were able to balance Rings and Sets first, but there would still be the issue of imbalance from two-buff sets (and sets like Prankster, whose only buff has 4 times the normal Cooldown).
Also, while I'm not completely agreed that these would need a negative side effect to balance them, I would argue that it needs to be conditional upon the primary effect actually functioning (i.e. Reflection reflecting an attack, getting hit with 100% Armor) - otherwise, you're going to be sticking completely innocent players who are re-buffing themselves with detrimental effects they didn't ask for. At the very least, it would be good to ensure they're actually trying to get the bonus before you apply the penalty... sweatdrop
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Atrash the Squidmonger Vice Captain
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Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:22 am
Red Kutai Atrash the Squidmonger someone suddenly throwing a useless rr1 buff on top of an rr4 buff will increase the duration that that buff type will exist, lowering the success rate of these special effects
Oh, Atrash; I thought we knew better than this. gonk
An RR1 buff will have no effect on top of an RR4 buff; it won't increase the duration, and it won't go on 'underneath'. As always, lesser buffs have no effect whatsoever in the presence of greater ones.
Same level ones, though (or is re-buffing entirely pointless if you haven't lost the buff)? That would still be an issue. Even higher level ones (and that does have a change) would raise problems that could get people irritated. On the rest of the post, I think adding downsides to the special functions would probably be too much work. They could further enforce the role of the player (making it easier for those players to take on one party role, but lessening their ability to take on other roles), but would require a lot more balancing and all. For sets, I don't think we should be encouraging the need to carry a whole set. If rings were balanced, it would work out right - not pushing people away from free form sets, but not keeping them from making slightly less convenient themed sets. However, I think it would be good to tie the special effects to slightly more set character roles (so it's not just which buffs you carry). Sets could be one way to do this. Two-buff sets (like Ninja now, although preferably Angel would get Divinity back) would have a bit of an advantage, but I think it could be balanced for. Non-buffs could always get some effects, and not all buffs would need an effect (also, some buff effects could have probabilities independent of sets and based on some other statistic [so in Ninja's case, Ghost's probability of special effect could be raised by using Ninja set rings, but Divinity would be based on something else - perhaps the amount of stamina you had left]).
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Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:28 pm
Regarding the duration vs buff level vs success rate issue, I guess my line of reasoning would be as follows:
Buff reapplied at a higher level = overrides lower level, therefore lower level duration is now zero
Buff reapplied at a lower level = lower level buff fails, therefore the effect fails
Buff reapplied at the same level = effect rate as per whatever formula governs the success rate.
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